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Shaocaholica posted:Is ‘480mb’ threadripper pro cache usable by all cores? No, not with the chiplet design.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:09
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Am I reading the bottom table correctly in that the TRX50 will support both non-Pro (X) and Pro (WX) processors i.e TRX50 and WRX90 are socket compatible?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:12
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I believe: you can use PRO in the hedt motherboard and it'll just be limited to the hedt memory & io capabilities. Non-PRO won't work in PRO motherboard.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:15
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Bjork Bjowlob posted:Am I reading the bottom table correctly in that the TRX50 will support both non-Pro (X) and Pro (WX) processors i.e TRX50 and WRX90 are socket compatible? The non-Pro boards support both Pro and non-Pro CPUs. The Pro boards only support Pro CPUs.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:16
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Shaocaholica posted:Is ‘480mb’ threadripper pro cache usable by all cores? It's cache coherent, so yes, but it is non-uniform due to the chiplet design. Accessing the cache of a separate CCD is about as fast as accessing main memory, so it's better expressed as 12x32MB L3.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:30
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Kibner posted:The non-Pro boards support both Pro and non-Pro CPUs. That's good news then - the processor incompatibilities between TR4, sTRX4 and sWRX8 hurt any idea of longterm investment in the threadripper platform.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:41
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Reusing the full size IO die with memory channels disabled has the funny side effect of each NUMA node in TR non-Pro only having a single memory channel. If you put a 7995WX in a TRX50 board you'll have three whole CCDs sharing a single local memory channel. It's a good thing the NUMA penalty is relatively small.
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Oct 19, 2023 15:49
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noctua with an official statement on some cooler compatibility https://twitter.com/Noctua_at/status/1714992102294057053 quote:Vienna, October 19th 2023 – Noctua today announced its new NH-U14S TR5-SP6 and NH-D9 TR5-SP6 4U CPU coolers for AMD’s TR5 (sTR5/sTRX5/sWRX9) and SP6 sockets for the just-released 7000 series Threadripper HEDT (High-End Desktop) and Threadripper Pro workstation processors as well as 8004 series Epyc server CPUs. While the 14cm NH-U14S TR5-SP6 provides maximum cooling performance at minimum noise levels, the 9cm NH-D9 TR5-SP6 4U combines excellent efficiency with a compact size for full 4U compatibility. In addition to the two cooler models, Noctua also introduced the new NM-TR5-SP6 mounting kit that allows upgrading existing TR4-SP3, DX-4677, DX-4189 and DX-3647 line coolers to support the new TR5/SP6 sockets of TRX50 and WRX90 motherboards.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:06
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BurritoJustice posted:It's cache coherent, so yes, but it is non-uniform due to the chiplet design. Accessing the cache of a separate CCD is about as fast as accessing main memory, so it's better expressed as 12x32MB L3. threadripper X3D with 1GB of total cache WHEN
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Oct 19, 2023 16:22
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Pablo Bluth posted:The fact Threadripper vanilla is a cutdown Threadripper PRO which is a variant of Epyc should bode well for it. It must cut down on the R&D costs so it's more viable long term, while benefitting from all the quality control work that the Epyc market demands. this was always true of threadripper, though? it's always been a cut-down epyc, and development costs have always been "minimal" and has always benefited from riding on epyc's coat-tails, but they still half-assed it anyway
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Oct 19, 2023 16:40
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$1500 isn't an increase at least, but it's still ultimately 4x R5 7600 on a package, with half the memory channels cut off, etc. That should be a $700 product, not $1500, but it's "what the market will bear". And then you'll have the $1500 motherboard for it. And again, regardless of it being what AMD thinks the market will bear, the fact is that the epyc boards and chips are literally better and cheaper for most people, so this is another "waste of silicon" launch. the server market "won't bear" $1500 motherboards and produces very good 8-channel motherboards kitted out with PCIe lanes and poo poo for $700, but then we apply the gamer tax and threadripper is $1500 for a board with much less capability. Chips are cheaper too, once the used market gets into gear (which is of course why they've gone after that with platform lock/etc) https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=GENOAD8X-2T/BCM#Specifications in the server market, these are $931 on provantage right now (the predecessor on SP3, ROMED8-2T, was $600). AMD wants you to pay $1500 for the threadrippper-lite or $2-3k for the full threadripper equivalent. it's just pretty much a non-starter if you care about value Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 16:48
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So X3D cache is accessible by all cores with the same penalty and its slower than L3 but orders of magnitude faster than main memory? And X3D is not available on Epic/Threadripper...yet but there are plans?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:34
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Shaocaholica posted:So X3D cache is accessible by all cores with the same penalty and its slower than L3 but orders of magnitude faster than main memory? And X3D is not available on Epic/Threadripper...yet but there are plans? X3D has been available on Epyc for a whilez released March 2022: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17323/amd-releases-milan-x-cpus-with-3d-vcache-epyc-7003 The 3D cache is part of L3 and it makes the whole L3 a little bit slower than a non-3D part, but usually having all that extra cache helps way more than the tiny hurt you get from it being slower.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:38
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Paul MaudDib posted:this was always true of threadripper, though? it's always been a cut-down epyc, and development costs have always been "minimal" and has always benefited from riding on epyc's coat-tails, but they still half-assed it anyway
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Oct 19, 2023 17:41
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RDIMM lol.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:11
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Jealous that they can fill all their DIMM slots, unlike my 7800X3D!
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Oct 19, 2023 18:16
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Shaocaholica posted:So X3D cache is accessible by all cores with the same penalty and its slower than L3 but orders of magnitude faster than main memory? And X3D is not available on Epic/Threadripper...yet but there are plans? X3D cache is accessible by all cores on that die / chiplet at L3 speeds (an order of magnitude faster than main memory). On a 5800X3d or 7800X3D there is just the one chiplet, so yes. It is fundamentally the same L3, just more of it. On multi-chiplet CPUs (79_0X3D, Epyc) accessing the L3 of a different chiplet is not L3 speed, because the communication has to go through the central IO die. This has latency ranging from 19ns (ram speed) to over 30ns (worse than memory). This is why the 7950X3D is really not the best gaming CPU: being aware of non-uniform access speeds is important and video games just don't do that because it's hard. Serious high-performance software does though. So people with 7950X3Ds who do games sometimes have to resort to manually fencing in the process to one set of cores. to be clear, my threadripper X3D post was a joke
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Oct 19, 2023 18:34
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You ain't getting to DRAM in 19ns.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:40
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Threadripper x3d will appear in six months. You don't blow your load in one go.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:54
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Hmm, I may be comparing apples and oranges between a real CPU test of real latency showing 20-30ns and the supposed 16-18ns response speed of DDR memory.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:54
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These are really niche products imo, kinda like the last generation. Especially with the boards with only 4 memory slots. The first few TR generations had some more mainstream DIY appeal, but I don't really see these in the same boat. e: just to be fair, the entire HEDT/Workstation market is niche in general, especially these days. The Sapphire Rapids Xeon W is just as, if not more, niche. Cygni fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 22:49
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My next workstation at work better have a 128core CPU (currently 5995WX 64c)
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Oct 19, 2023 22:58
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Cygni posted:These are really niche products imo, kinda like the last generation. Especially with the boards with only 4 memory slots. The first few TR generations had some more mainstream DIY appeal, but I don't really see these in the same boat.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:19
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Tuna-Fish posted:The reason to buy a non-pro TR is that you need more PCIe slots than the AM5 platform provides. Pretty much. It's great for doing things that need a lot of GPU compute AND a lot of fast local storage. Granted, there aren't many reasons you'd need a pair of 4090s AND 90TB of SSDs hanging off the same PCIe bus, but it's doable at least!
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Oct 19, 2023 23:56
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Tuna-Fish posted:The reason to buy a non-pro TR is that you need more PCIe slots than the AM5 platform provides. Right, but the vast majority of people who fit that need and have cash to spare are going to be using cloud/rack mount solutions, not wanting to sit next to it all day. And you likely can get that cheaper (and more performant) with an Epyc DIY box, as Paul pointed out. Also the TRX50 board weve seen so far has a grand total of 2 PCIe 5.0 x16 slots. TRX50 "only" (lol) has 48 PCIe 5.0 lanes and needs some 5.0 M.2 slots, so some slots are gonna have to be 4.0 which probably isnt a huge problem for people, but its still there. So what youre left with for TR non-pro is people who have lots of money who either have datasets that need big parallel CPU processing but cant be accelerated and doesnt use a lot of memory bandwidth, or people that want to run lots of PCIe accelerators or PCIe storage... who also cant/wont just run that in a datacenter for cheaper for whatever reason. It just seems like a small niche, but thats the workstation/HEDT world these days. I'm sure some exist, and good for them those wacky punks, but not gonna be a lot of em.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:35
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If I had the money I would buy one for CFD analysis, since this would be a perfect application for it.
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Oct 20, 2023 04:08
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While the new threadrippers don't look completely horrible they're a year late - and there's still the chance of them releasing threadripper X3D in six months. That and them actively loving over threadripper owners before multiple times, with them allowing everyone to believe TR4 would be supported like AM4 and then only giving sTRX4 a single generation despite promises otherwise. The one thing that'd really get me interested is the amount of PCIe lanes, but even that seems unnecessarily exacerbated by the horrible slot layouts of AM5 boards. 24 pcie lanes isn't great but if you allow dropping to 8 lanes to each GPU plus the chipset providing some, there should be plenty for nvme and additional pcie cards, but the AM5 motherboards just suck. The non-PRO prices don't look nearly good enough considering you cannot count on AMD giving it more than one generation of support. If I were to have gone HEDT this generation, I'd have gone the Intel route months ago and have gotten better ddr5 speeds out of it.
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Oct 20, 2023 04:40
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Paul MaudDib posted:https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=GENOAD8X-2T/BCM#Specifications quote:in the server market, these are $931 on provantage right now (the predecessor on SP3, ROMED8-2T, was $600). AMD wants you to pay $1500 for the threadrippper-lite or $2-3k for the full threadripper equivalent. it's just pretty much a non-starter if you care about value In theory that board will fit NR200p  Now if any of you US goons were willing to do a customs fraud and buy and send me a https://www.newegg.com/asrock-rack-romed8-2t/p/N82E16813140044 as that's also the lowest that board has been.
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Oct 20, 2023 06:33
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Klyith posted:X3D cache is accessible by all cores on that die / chiplet at L3 speeds (an order of magnitude faster than main memory). On a 5800X3d or 7800X3D there is just the one chiplet, so yes. It is fundamentally the same L3, just more of it. I love how CPU designers looked at the issues inherit with NUMA and thought "hey, let's do that, but make it even worse". NUMA works decently if you're bottlenecked by thread scale-out and aren't doing certain memory sensitive workloads, but it's a loving nightmare to deal with when you're working with any kind of I/O for either auxiliary storage or networking. NUCA has all of those issues, but now it's for any workload. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 10:14
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it's super easy to just have process groups run on a single chiplet though, and if you spent $1000 or whatever on your cpu, surely you know how to do that
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Oct 20, 2023 10:17
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Truga posted:it's super easy to just have process groups run on a single chiplet though, and if you spent $1000 or whatever on your cpu, surely you know how to do that
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Oct 20, 2023 10:19
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you still have access too all the threads, though? you just can't run the cache sensitive threads on the low-cache cores, and since that post was talking about games, there's no game that needs both the cache and 16 threads to run well so far i mean poo poo, i'm still on a 3950x which has l3 cache only shared by 2 cores and it runs 8 thread games fine because even with going through the interconnect the cache is still tons faster than accessing ram
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Oct 20, 2023 10:24
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Desuwa posted:The non-PRO prices don't look nearly good enough considering you cannot count on AMD giving it more than one generation of support. If I were to have gone HEDT this generation, I'd have gone the Intel route months ago and have gotten better ddr5 speeds out of it.
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Oct 20, 2023 10:55
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HEDT sockets have been a clusterfuck.
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Oct 20, 2023 14:56
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So chiplets are the new sockets. These new 1P systems are really just 4P logically. I always wanted a 4P.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:16
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Shaocaholica posted:So chiplets are the new sockets. These new 1P systems are really just 4P logically. I always wanted a 4P.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:30
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So new desktop APUs are coming with X3D right?
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Oct 20, 2023 20:12
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On the APUs? Probably not.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:35
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The new AGESA version supposedly has support for phoenix APUs, so those are presumably coming to desktop soon. They probably won't be X3D, and even if they were, the cache wouldn't be on the GPU.
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Oct 20, 2023 21:54
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I just want a dumb 500W USFF APU system but no half measures.
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Oct 20, 2023 23:11
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