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Well I'm sure both Israel and the US has most of Gaza under surveillance from the sky and satellites etc that the public has no access to. Gaza is pretty small after all, it shouldn't be difficult for these military powerhouses to have most of it under surveillance. Size comparison of the gaza strip: 
Zzulu fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 09:47
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Zzulu posted:Well I'm sure both Israel and the US has most of Gaza under surveillance from the sky and satellites etc that the public has no access to. I can think of several events in the last two weeks that point to that surveillance being not so great.
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Oct 20, 2023 10:20
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My uncle just let us know that 2 nights ago, the Palestinian refugee who lives with them here in Belgium lost 10 members of his family in one night. Among the victims, his grandmother, uncle, aunt and five of their children. I just don't know what to say, it just makes me sick to my stomach. I haven't gotten any details of where and how. I don't know him that well, only from family parties. Just, gently caress. Seriously, imagine if this was your family.
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Oct 20, 2023 10:33
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hadji murad posted:I can think of several events in the last two weeks that point to that surveillance being not so great. But I don't think you need any secret government knowledge to accept that Israel's actions are genocidal in nature and that maybe offering wholehearted support while they do a genocide is pretty poo poo.
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Oct 20, 2023 10:33
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mrfart posted:My uncle just let us know that 2 nights ago, the Palestinian refugee who lives with them here in Belgium lost 10 members of his family in one night. Jesus christ. An entire family wiped out out in one night. I can't image what he's going through right now. This can't go on. I do feel the wheels of public/government opinion in West are eventually going to turn (as I think the full-throated support of Israel is overreaching and as the shock of Hamas' earlier attack fades, more people are starting to react against it as the atrocities pile in), but it increasingly looks like its happening far too slowly and won't happen in time to stop this slaughter... Only 'hope' at the moment seems to be some kind of regional pressure - that various Middle-Eastern governments start pressuring Israel behind the scenes to rein it in/agree to a cease fire. Not because the governments themselves give the slightest poo poo about the Palestinians, but because they do care about regime security, and Israel's actions enflame public opinion and drive people onto the street. Whilst those governments are certainly willing to crack skulls, they'd probably rather those people weren't on the streets in the first place.
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Oct 20, 2023 10:57
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The Economist has several well-summarized articles this week about the current conflict, summarizing the (exclusively terrible) potential outcomes, https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/10/19/israels-four-unpalatable-options-for-gazas-long-term-future and potential "solutions" like Israel creating refugee cities for Gazans now in the Negev ( https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/10/19/the-stakes-could-hardly-be-higher-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict ) So, essentially putting a million people into an actual honest-to-god massive open-air prison (I never quite understood how Gaza was the "world's largest" open-air prison when it's both a tiny fraction of the size of the DPRK and quite substantially more developed than anything outside Pyongyang, but I digress). I really can't imagine either Gazans or right-wing Israelis actually accepting that, but I also don't see anyone actually accepting any of the potential outcomes.
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Oct 20, 2023 11:26
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Sisi has already announced his support for the Negev desert plan. https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d quote:El-Sissi said fighting could last for years if Israel argues it hasn’t sufficiently crushed militants. He proposed that Israel house Palestinians in its Negev Desert, which neighbors the Gaza Strip, until it ends its military operations.
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Oct 20, 2023 11:33
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Forgive my cynicism but once Israel forces them out of Gaza and into makeshift camps in the desert, I don't see it ever letting them back in. It sounds like a death march into the desert
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Oct 20, 2023 12:05
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Saladman posted:and potential "solutions" like Israel creating refugee cities for Gazans now in the Negev
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Oct 20, 2023 12:06
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Saladman posted:
The DPRK is controlled by it's own government, Gaza is controlled by Israel. To call the DPRK an open-air prison would be to call all repressive, authoritarian countries open-air prisons. Tigey posted:Forgive my cynicism but once Israel forces them out of Gaza and into makeshift camps in the desert, I don't see it ever letting them back in. It does, doesn't it. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 12:40
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Tigey posted:Forgive my cynicism but once Israel forces them out of Gaza and into makeshift camps in the desert, I don't see it ever letting them back in. It's just 40 days and 40 nights, what kind of lasting impression could it leave on a people? 
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Oct 20, 2023 12:48
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Tigey posted:
I feel like that slow reaction with some western governments sometimes looks calculated. ‘Let them go nuts and then when it’s a fait accompli, we’ll condemn it’
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Oct 20, 2023 12:49
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edit: This is off-topic and we don't need to go off on a derail, sorry
Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 12:59
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Tigey posted:Forgive my cynicism but once Israel forces them out of Gaza and into makeshift camps in the desert, I don't see it ever letting them back in. That's not cynicism it's being realistic about what the plan is.
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Oct 20, 2023 13:13
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Discendo Vox posted:The "mutiny" is greatly overstated; there's a formal process for making a statement of disagreement with policy, which is significant but far from earth-shattering. Has the dissent channel ever been used for Israel/Palestine stuff before?
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Oct 20, 2023 15:25
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Groovelord Neato posted:That's not cynicism it's being realistic about what the plan is. Israel's long term plan is that 30 years into the future, they will be holding a film festival on top of mass graves in the Gaza Strip, and young Israeli filmmakers will show off their new movies about the terrible but necessary choices their grandparents made, and the complex emotions brought up by the long term ramifications of those actions.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:02
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I can't imagine the US state department would have any information we don't, honestly. All we know about the atrocities in Gaza has been reported by people on the ground, and I don't see how any witness accounts could make it to the US state department but also be withheld from Al Jazeera et al. I'm sure they have some direct channel to the Israeli government, but they're not gonna draw attention to their own crimes, like, the Israeli state department is not going to announce the IDF's intent to bomb humanitarian corridors or deploy white phosphorous or whatever on the presidential hotline. I'm sure they know more than the public does regarding the situation on the ground (presumably somebody is doing some spying on Israeli back channels and creating briefs for the State Department) but even knowing the exact nature of the deals regarding humanitarian aid instead of what's being reported over the news would paint a much clearer picture. Like the Egypt safe corridor is a whole mess about some parties saying it's open, or it's closed, or it's open and has been bombed. I would expect a State Department employee to know more clearly where the breakdown is at least. I would be interested in knowing if there are any opposition positions within Israel or alternatives to the current government that could gain traction. It definitely seems to me that even there's disapproval of Bibi, everybody else is keeping their heads down at best.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:05
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Clipperton posted:Has the dissent channel ever been used for Israel/Palestine stuff before? My understanding is a lot of it is classified, but given that it's used very frequently I'd be shocked if it weren't. What's unusual in this case is that someone's using the press to run a PR campaign with it- that's less common.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:08
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celadon posted:Israel's long term plan is that 30 years into the future, they will be holding a film festival on top of mass graves in the Gaza Strip, and young Israeli filmmakers will show off their new movies about the terrible but necessary choices their grandparents made, and the complex emotions brought up by the long term ramifications of those actions. Start working on those land acknowledgments now, kids.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:11
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celadon posted:Israel's long term plan is that 30 years into the future, they will be holding a film festival on top of mass graves in the Gaza Strip, and young Israeli filmmakers will show off their new movies about the terrible but necessary choices their grandparents made, and the complex emotions brought up by the long term ramifications of those actions. This is exactly it, and the heart of anti-anti-Zionism among people who aren't totally religious wackjobs is basically "you have no right to criticize us for doing it, the only reason you're not doing it too is that you inherited a country where it was already accomplished." Which is probably true, if there's anything the Israelis have done to Palestinians that the pioneers didn't do to Native Americans, it's just because the technology wasn't around. But Native Americans during colonization didn't have access to international politics and media, or the moderm ideas of human rights and genocides and war crimes, in the way Palestinians do.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:14
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This is exactly it, and the heart of anti-anti-Zionism among people who aren't totally religious wackjobs is basically "you have no right to criticize us for doing it, the only reason you're not doing it too is that you inherited a country where it was already accomplished." I don't think many people had access to that stuff during the first and second Aliyah and or in the lead up to and the aftermath of the Holocaust. At least not technology wise and media.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:18
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This is exactly it, and the heart of anti-anti-Zionism among people who aren't totally religious wackjobs is basically "you have no right to criticize us for doing it, the only reason you're not doing it too is that you inherited a country where it was already accomplished." It’s more that it’s a dumb, irrelevant whataboutism. If an Israeli were talking to a time traveler living in the United States in 1824, then it would be a reasonable line of dialogue to discuss hypocrisy. As it is, I don’t think many living Americans had much to do with the Trail of Tears. There are also much worse government genocides going on right this very moment, but saying "hey what about those??" is dumb too. Sudan and Syria are not in a position to fairly criticize Israel, but I think it’s fair game for everyone else in the region to say "hey what the gently caress are you doing?", even Turkey and Saudi Arabia, without being obvious massive hypocrites.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:25
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Saladman posted:It’s more that it’s a dumb, irrelevant whataboutism. If an Israeli were talking to a time traveler living in the United States in 1824, then it would be a reasonable line of dialogue to discuss hypocrisy. As it is, I don’t think many living Americans had much to do with the Trail of Tears. Even without going into the recent past, the lack of humanitarian aid and refugee support from many of the Arab allies (the UAE in particular) speaks loudly. $20M was all they could come up with: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...ponse-gaza-enar PS: thanks for the Anti-semitic avatar, goons
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Oct 20, 2023 16:33
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Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? I know Israel has a blockade against Gaza that Egypt assists with, and controls what goes in and out of Gaza, so have they made sure Gaza can't buy anything that can help them build these plants and not be dependent on an enemy state? This article (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/crisis-gaza-why-food-water-power-running-out) by the Guardian goes into the ramifications of electricity and water being turned off by Israel, and mentions there is (one) power plant, and families have personal desalination plants for water drinking, but unless Israel has been actively sabotaging efforts to become independent from them, it seems bonkers that Hamas has not tried to build up that infrastructure. saladman posted:even Turkey and Saudi Arabia, without being obvious massive hypocrites. Didn't Turkey in the 2020 Armenia-Azerbaijan war tell the Armenian government slyly that they would "finish what they started in 1915?" Also, they're currently colonizing the hell out of Cyprus, with ethnic cleansing of Greeks a slow going process. They would be incredibly hypocritical in these cases. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 16:34
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i fly airplanes posted:Even without going into the recent past, the lack of humanitarian aid and refugee support from many of the Arab allies (the UAE in particular) speaks loudly. $20M was all they could come up with: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...ponse-gaza-enar Can you explain why you think it’s the responsibility of Arab nations to pay for the damages caused by Israeli and American military operations?
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Oct 20, 2023 16:39
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? Flatly put, they can't. Amnesty International article from 2017 on water specifically. "In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry. ... In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration." They've also interfered with any effort to repair damaged infrastructure. They further heavily restrict import of basically anything you could use to build infrastructure like concrete and iron. e: Like Israel loving confiscates chocolate on the basis the sales of it could be used to fund Hamas. Israel refuses to allow any meaningful development or reconstruction in Gaza for presumably what we're seeing now - so they can starve, dehydrate, and sicken Palestinians at a whim. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 16:41
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Saladman posted:It’s more that it’s a dumb, irrelevant whataboutism. If an Israeli were talking to a time traveler living in the United States in 1824, then it would be a reasonable line of dialogue to discuss hypocrisy. As it is, I don’t think many living Americans had much to do with the Trail of Tears. See this is the exact long-term plan for Israel. Once the Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed off the land, take criticism for a generation or two, and then "as it is, I don't think many living Israelis had much to do with the destruction of Gaza." Every living American lives on land stolen from Native Americans. If that's not a problem for us, then it won't be a problem for Israelis in a few generations, and that's the promise at the heart of Zionism. Once we get rid of all the Palestinians, people will eventually forgive us, and then we can be a normal country just like the US. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 16:41
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? It's extremely difficult for them to acquire basic building materials. Even cement is hard to come by because Israel heavily restricts what can come into Gaza. I think they would love to build their own infrastructure. Israel just won't allow it.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:43
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BUUNNI posted:Can you explain why you think it’s the responsibility of Arab nations to pay for the damages caused by Israeli and American military operations? Allies help each other in times of need, whether the disaster is caused by war or by natural disasters. Are you trying to politicize foreign aid even further? Should America have left post-WW2 Germany the way it was to repeat another Weimar Republic?
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Oct 20, 2023 16:43
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I think it's more to show that the surrounding allies are more interested in demonizing Israel than helping Palestinians. At least it was in the past when Egypt and Jordan were using the Palestinians as much as human pawns as Israel was.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:48
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Madkal posted:I think it's more to show that the surrounding allies are more interested in demonizing Israel than helping Palestinians. At least it was in the past when Egypt and Jordan were using the Palestinians as much as human pawns as Israel was. I don’t think it’s possible for countries that don’t have the level of control over the lives and destinies of Palestinians to have “as much” culpability in their fate as the oppressive genocide being perpetrated by the country that does. Just from a moral, practical/logistical sense, that math cannot be made to work. If you control something, you have a responsibility that nobody else can have because you have excluded them from influence.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:50
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That article indicates the UAE provided 20 million in June and another 15 million in July. 20 million is what they're offering right now, but it's a moot point because humanitarian aid still can not get into Gaza.
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Oct 20, 2023 16:52
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i fly airplanes posted:Allies help each other in times of need, whether the disaster is caused by war or by natural disasters. We know that several nations and organizations have sent aid to Palestine, but why do you think that Israel or the US would ever allow that aid to be delivered? More broadly, can you think of any reasons why Middle Eastern Muslim nations would have qualms about providing aid to a people who are viewed by most developed nations as being uninteresting at best and terrorists at worst?
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Oct 20, 2023 16:56
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:but unless Israel has been actively sabotaging efforts to become independent from them It's basically this. The blockade especially has accelerated this problem. As for water, here is an amnesty article about it. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
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Oct 20, 2023 17:04
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? Even if they could build the infrastructure (they can't) Israel would've bombed it.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:10
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BUUNNI posted:We know that several nations and organizations have sent aid to Palestine, but why do you think that Israel or the US would ever allow that aid to be delivered? Again, the US is the largest contributor of aid to Palestinians through UNRWA, and those other nations are, in fact, also providing aid.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:18
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BUUNNI posted:Can you explain why you think it’s the responsibility of Arab nations to pay for the damages caused by Israeli and American military operations? idk about responsibility but given how pro-Palestinian they are rhetorically and how rich they are from oil money you'd figure they'd come up with more if they actually cared as much as their rhetoric suggest Typo fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 17:23
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I wonder if Israel is waiting to see how the congressional speaker race plays out before committing to a ground invasion of Gaza? Once they start they are probably going to be expending a massive amount of ammunition of all types (especially if a second front opens up in Lebanon) and will surely need resupplies. Which will probably have to be approved by the US Congress. If so, I guess there's a silver lining to the paralysis in Congress if it's making Israel second guess going in with no clear path to ammo resupplies.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:28
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i fly airplanes posted:Even without going into the recent past, the lack of humanitarian aid and refugee support from many of the Arab allies (the UAE in particular) speaks loudly. $20M was all they could come up with: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...ponse-gaza-enar That new $20 million brings their total to $55 million since June. By comparison, the US bragged about having sent just $20.5 million to Gaza between April 2021 to March 2022. That said, Gaza aid comes with a rather unique problem. Outside of consumables like food and fuel, any aid that's sent to Gaza is just going to be blown up by Israel in a couple of years anyway and all the donors know it, which produces a certain reluctance to put large amounts of money into reconstruction aid that isn't accompanied by actual progress in the political situation. Every time Israel goes in and blows up a bunch of Gaza, it's harder to come up with reconstruction aid. It was hard as hell to get donors to even meet their own pledges for reconstruction aid after the 2021 bombardment, and most of what was built with that aid is probably getting blown up this month so I can understand donors' reluctance. Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? Israel is blocking imports of the fuel that's needed to run Gaza's power plant. Without power, most of the water purification infrastructure goes down too. Israel also routinely bombs the heck out of Gazan infrastructure, and doesn't allow the import of the parts and materials needed to repair, maintain, or expand that infrastructure. Of course they've tried to build up the infrastructure, but it's hard to build a new power plant when Israel won't even let you import cement, let alone the actual machinery that's needed to run a plant. Even when Israel allows these imports, buying the fuel and parts and then using them to run, build, and maintaining infrastructure takes money. Due to the blockade and other Israeli oppression, Gaza's economy is in shambles with a >50% unemployment rate, which means that government authorities in Gaza have very little money with which to pay for those things.
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Oct 20, 2023 17:29
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? Hamas has never been interested in improving Palestine. It's not their stated goal or their mission. The mission is to destroy Israel and create an islamic state on their territory under sharia law - this is how they came to be in the first place. See their own videos where they dig up water pipes donated by the EU in 2021 and turn them into rocket launchers. They proudly film that stuff and showcase it as proof of their ingenuity, because they don't care about providing for the people, they just want to destroy their enemy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y Zzulu fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 17:32
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