Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

Zzulu posted:

Hamas has never been interested in improving Palestine. It's not their stated goal or their mission. The mission is to destroy Israel and create an islamic state on their territory under sharia law - this is how they came to be in the first place.

See their own videos where they dig up water pipes donated by the EU in 2021 and turn them into rocket launchers. They proudly film that stuff and showcase it as proof of their ingenuity, because they don't care about providing for the people, they just want to destroy their enemy.

From the New York Times

"A 50-minute documentary broadcast by the Qatari-owned television channel Al Jazeera in September showed rare scenes of Hamas militants recovering dozens of Israeli missiles that had not detonated in previous strikes on Gaza.

They brought the remnants into what looked like a hidden manufacturing facility, carefully extracted the explosives packed inside and recycled some of the parts. The same documentary also showed militants digging up old water pipes from where Israeli settlements used to sit and repurposing the empty cylinders in the production of new rockets.

Referring to the repurposed plumbing pipes, while speaking in another gathering in 2019, Mr. Sinwar said, �There is enough there to manufacture rockets for the coming 10 years.� "

e: And an additional AP article from 2021 referring to them as "[salvaging] old water pipes"

This article from 2019 alleges that at least some are sourced from Gush Katif.

Now you could argue that salvage could be better used elsewhere, but that footage does not in fact appear to show Hamas digging up donated water pipes.

TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Oct 20, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 17:43

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# ? May 27, 2024 13:13

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Zzulu posted:

See their own videos where they dig up water pipes donated by the EU in 2021 and turn them into rocket launchers. They proudly film that stuff and showcase it as proof of their ingenuity, because they don't care about providing for the people, they just want to destroy their enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y

That doesn't look like their own video. The name of the Youtube account that posted that unvoiced, unsourced video appears to be "Israel Defense Forces". Perhaps they took it from elsewhere, but if that's the case, then surely you could post the original unedited source (it's clearly edited), rather than posting a video from the IDF's official Youtube channel.

Zzulu posted:

Hamas has never been interested in improving Palestine. It's not their stated goal or their mission. The mission is to destroy Israel and create an islamic state on their territory under sharia law - this is how they came to be in the first place.

That's just not true at all. While Hamas is mostly known overseas for its military activities, the group has a long and well-documented history of providing social services to Palestinian communities. Soup kitchens, orphanages, schools - Hamas doesn't just strike against Israel, it's also historically done a lot to help the poor and needy. That's been the foundation of their political rise.

Post-2008, it doesn't get much more than a brief mention in the Western press, but there's tons of books and papers about it - it's something that foreign policy thinkers can't really ignore when looking at Hamas' political strength. Which does make it a bit hard to find freely-available sources describing it in detail, but here's one, though it's a bit old.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-mar-02-fg-charity2-story.html

quote:

KHAN YUNIS, Gaza Strip � For a basic tooth filling and crown, the price difference is negligible: $17 at a regular clinic, $15 at Al Quds Clinic. The real distinction is in the extras.

�It�s safer to come to an Islamic place, where you can find a doctor who�s not only a good dentist, but a good Muslim,� said Najwa abu Mustafa, 24, who sat one recent afternoon in the sunny waiting room with several other women, shrouded in black veils but for the thin openings around their eyes. �You�re putting yourself in God�s hands.�

The small clinic on the edge of one of the Gaza Strip�s biggest refugee camps is one of hundreds of medical centers, food banks, summer camps and schools across the West Bank and Gaza operated by Islamic charities, many of them linked to the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known by its Arabic acronym Hamas.

The militant group�s recent victory in parliamentary elections is testimony in part to its long track record on the streets. Its services are often perceived as being of higher quality and less tainted by corruption than the cumbersome and often ineffective social network operated by the Palestinian Authority controlled until now by Fatah.

The work Hamas does at home is an often-overlooked key to the domestic popularity of an organization most known elsewhere for killing. The United States has declared Hamas a terrorist organization, and U.S. and Israeli counter-terrorism experts have cited numerous instances in which Al Qaeda and Hamas drew funding from international Islamic charities. Hamas also reportedly has used schools and hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza to store weapons and plan attacks.

Faced with U.S. and European measures aimed at preventing charity funds from being funneled into terrorism, Hamas has erased many of its traceable financial links to the humanitarian programs. But Hamas figures remain on the boards and in management of the programs, which analysts say have become an essential component of the group�s public support.

�Hamas has been very good at compartmentalizing their activities -- where they have a soup kitchen, for example, they simply give soup, nothing more,� said Mouin Rabbani of the International Crisis Group, which studied Islamic social activism in the occupied territories. �But it all fits into a broader pattern of popular mobilization and becomes another way of seeking support for the organization.�

Over the last two decades, several large Islamic charities have come to be closely associated with Hamas, including the Mujamma Islami network, Al Salah Society, the Islamic Center and the Islamic University of Gaza. But the International Crisis Group said there was little �substantial evidence� that Islamic welfare institutions �systematically divert� funds to support terrorist activity.

�Hamas doesn�t have much in the way of resources, but they have a big network of charity working in order to reduce the suffering of the Palestinian people,� said Sami abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the group in Gaza. �People feel the credibility of Hamas, and its ability to make change through the charity organizations that it runs.�

In Gaza, Al Salah Society�s school for 1,000 orphans and other youngsters in the teeming town of Deir al Balah stands in sharp contrast to the crumbling concrete and dusty streets around it, a fenced-in oasis of palms and neat classrooms.

�Muslims are the best nation created in the world,� says a banner hanging outside the school, next to another that says, �Those who learn more earn a higher degree in paradise.�

Al Salah�s director, Ahmad Kurd, was recently elected mayor of Deir al Balah, and Hamas scooped up two of the region�s three parliamentary seats in the January elections.

�In 1994 there was an Israeli operation which destroyed several Palestinian houses [of families of suspected militants] in one of the poorest neighborhoods,� Kurd said. �I had to meet with the Israeli commander, and he asked me, �Why are you supporting and helping those victims who lost their homes?�

�I told him, �The Red Crescent is helping, the Churches United organization also gives some help to them, the Catholic Relief organization, the United Nations. And Al Salah Society is there as well. Is it forbidden?� And he was not able to respond to that.�

When Israeli forces launched a major incursion into the southern Gaza refugee camp of Rafah in 2004, leaving nearly 1,500 residents homeless, Al Salah sent fundraisers with megaphones down the streets, going door to door, standing on street corners and outside the mosques. Women were asked to drop their gold necklaces into the collection boxes. Poor families gave sacks of rice. Al Salah collected $1 million worth of food, valuables and cash in Gaza, one of the poorest places in the Middle East.

Yet Kurd said it would be a mistake to think Hamas won the votes because of its charity work.

�The people are getting a lot more money from America, from the international community. The international donors distributed perhaps $6 billion in the last 10 years. The Islamic charity organizations didn�t pay out 1% of that money,� he said.

Palestinians associate U.S. aid with Washington�s support for Israel, he said. �The Palestinian feels, �You give me that money, and you kill me. You give me money, and you destroy my house. You give me money, and you send planes to kill our kids.� �

Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, said international aid had focused on public works projects but had done little to provide direct help to the poor, or to those families that have lost a breadwinner in the conflict with Israel.

�Unfortunately, the Western side has donated for projects like cleaning the streets or painting the walls, but they didn�t give anything for the care of orphans,� he said. Some of the most controversial programs operated by the Muslim charities provide stipends, housing and direct financial aid to the families of suicide bombers.

In the narrow alleyways of the sprawling refugee camp at Deir al Balah, hundreds of families get cash payments of $40 to $100 a month from Mujamma Islami and Al Salah, along with meat, beans, flour and eggs.

�We would be completely destitute without this help,� said Ataf Ostaz, 41, who has nine children and whose husband died of a stroke two years ago. �Naturally, we gave our votes to Hamas, because they are the ones who touch our need.�

The unlikely mix of services offered at Al Quds Clinic -- pediatrics, maternal healthcare, orthodontics and post-surgical care -- is no accident. Mujamma Islami, which opened the center in October 2002, conducted a survey of the clinics already operating in Khan Yunis.

�We did studies and reached the decision that some services are not good enough in government hospitals, and so we decided to offer these services ourselves,� said clinic director Atiya Abumoaamar. �The point is that the public hospitals are very, very cheap, so where we compete with them is not in prices, but in quality.�

At the same time, fees generally are substantially lower than those at private clinics.

Caseloads now reach up to 400 patients a month, and if there is a profit at the end of the month, Abumoaamar splits it with doctors and office staff. Otherwise, they work without salary as volunteers. The effort has been judged such a success that two more clinics are opening soon, with funding from the Saudi-based World Assembly of Muslim Youth.

�If the international community will just give it a chance and will not isolate it, if donors don�t freeze the funds, if the Arab countries help make some solution, I guarantee that Hamas will do a better job of running this society,� Abumoaamar said.

But some Palestinians point out that there is a big difference between operating schools and clinics and running a government for 3 million people.

�The Palestinian Authority has to reach everyone, and in a situation of closures, unemployment reaching unprecedented figures, and in an environment in which you are constantly being undermined, these services are obligatory,� said Issam Younis, director of the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights in Gaza City.

�Hamas has done its homework. Over the years, they have established very good social services, they have the maximum use of the mosque,� he said. �And it will be good to have Hamas in the government. Welcome! But think of the situation.

�With Abu Mazen [current Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas], the international community transferred only $350 million of the $1 billion they were supposed to send for 2005. This is with the good guys in charge, not the terrorists!� he said. �Imagine how things will be with Hamas.�

# ? Oct 20, 2023 17:52

Collapsing Farts: Jun 29, 2018; ð

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Oct 20, 2023 17:56

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

Collapsing Farts posted:

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

That's is not a good excuse for posting easily disprovable state propaganda, especially when that propaganda has been been nakedly used to argue against any humanitarian aid for the millions of innocent civilians in Gaza.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 17:58

Zzulu: May 15, 2009; (â°ËvËâ°)

My bad, they didn't use EU donated pipes. They just dug up regular old water pipes, to make rockets with,

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:04

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

Zzulu posted:

My bad, they didn't use EU donated pipes. They just dug up regular old water pipes, to make rockets with,

So? It's difficult to get materiel.

Collapsing Farts posted:

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

We've designated Hezbollah a terrorist organization when they're a legitimate political party. It's a political designation it's not some kind of objective measurement. Explaining that a political party - who was popular enough to win elections - does things other than military action should not only be obvious it's not going to bat for one to explain to others seemingly unaware of this. I think our political parties do other things to win votes besides causing the most death and destruction across the globe over the past half century.

Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Oct 20, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:05

selec: Sep 6, 2003

Collapsing Farts posted:

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

Is �not falling for misleading propaganda� the same as �going to bat for� here? Is having a truer, more complicated understanding of history a bad thing?

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:06

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Collapsing Farts posted:

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

"issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the terror group ~~ISIL~~ Hamas. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:07

Collapsing Farts: Jun 29, 2018; ð

Charliegrs posted:

"issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the terror group ~~ISIL~~ Hamas. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:11

Nancy: Nov 23, 2005; Young Orc

i fly airplanes posted:

Should America have left post-WW2 Germany the way it was to repeat another Weimar Republic?

I don't understand the hypothetical in the context of lack of aid from other majority Arab nations because American investment in Germany after WW2 went towards repairing damage it caused to German cities and infrastructure & was helping a political scheme to turn (parts of) Germany into a friendly ally and blockade Soviet interests.

Does Israel send aid to Gaza and the West Bank? I feel like the hypothetical more apt if that's what you were talking about.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:16

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

Zzulu posted:

My bad, they didn't use EU donated pipes. They just dug up regular old water pipes, to make rockets with,

That is a fundamentally different allegation and you know it. What do you propose they do with over a decade old water pipes? Hook them up to which desalination plants or water pumps? Do you even have any reason to suspect that these long neglected pipes would even be serviceable for transporting waters? Part of the purpose of the EU project is to deal with leaky pipes in the first place - I'm no plumber but it seems like a questionable proposition to try and reuse old water pipes to patch up old and leaking infrastructure.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:18

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Zzulu posted:

My bad, they didn't use EU donated pipes. They just dug up regular old water pipes, to make rockets with,

From abandoned settlements, which don't compromise the water supply to Gaza. Water pipes branch off to each building, them taking pipes from a house nobody is living in has negligible effect.

Collapsing Farts posted:

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

This is a pretty lousy excuse for being wrong. It's also inherently self-serving, since you can use the blatant falsehoods to justify being even less skeptical towards Hamas accusations once you've accepted them as truth.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:20

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:25

Madkal: Feb 11, 2008; Fallen Rib

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:25

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

TGLT posted:

That is a fundamentally different allegation and you know it. What do you propose they do with over a decade old water pipes? Hook them up to which desalination plants or water pumps? Do you even have any reason to suspect that these long neglected pipes would even be serviceable for transporting waters? Part of the purpose of the EU project is to deal with leaky pipes in the first place - I'm no plumber but it seems like a questionable proposition to try and reuse old water pipes to patch up old and leaking infrastructure.

Any other use besides turning them into rockets would have been a better use of those pipes.

Also decade old water pipes are completely fine. There are cities all over the world that use water pipe infrastructure built multiple decades ago, and in some places that turns into centuries. Hell Russia has wooden pipes from the 1700s in St Petersburg that serve as pipe mains.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:25

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

So you feel anti gay views and bigotry should preclude any support? Interesting. I wonder how other US allies in the region would fare by that calculation.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:30

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

"Hamas provides social services" is not "Hamas is good".

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:33

Reik: Mar 8, 2004

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

What do the Palestinians think about Hamas?

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:34

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

HonorableTB posted:

Any other use besides turning them into rockets would have been a better use of those pipes.

Also decade old water pipes are completely fine. There are cities all over the world that use water pipe infrastructure built multiple decades ago, and in some places that turns into centuries. Hell Russia has wooden pipes from the 1700s in St Petersburg that serve as pipe mains.

Going to go out on a limb and say those water pipes have seen regular repair and maintenance, and were not left abandoned for over a decade in a place that gets regularly bombed. Perhaps they're still serviceable, but "military salvages old abandoned settlements to supplement its arsenal" is a pretty loving different story.

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

You're right, the Israeli government is a little better than Hamas, so it's fine and cool for them to bomb and starve queer Palestinians.

Like what the gently caress even is the point here?

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:34

celadon: Jan 2, 2023

Is the purpose of this to lay the groundwork so that when hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians die of dehydration, the fault will be with Hamas digging up an entire water infrastructure for their horrible missiles (each capable of 500+ deaths if circumstances are right(which they have been once in 20 years and only when self inflicted)) and not the fact that Israel has implemented a total blockade on water and fuel?

Like when you imagine the wikipedia article eventually written labeled "2023 Gaza Strip Genocide", how much of it do you think will cover Controversy - Hospital Strike or Background - Hamas' Water Rockets ?

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:34

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:35

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

HonorableTB posted:

Any other use besides turning them into rockets would have been a better use of those pipes.

Now apply this same incredible logic to the 23 Billion Israel spends on the IDF and the billions upon billions the US has given Israel in weapons over the years. Complaining about unused water pipes being turned into rockets is so ridiculous in the face of the insane amounts of money nations light on fire on war machines that could be better spent to house people, feed children, or just about anything else that would be of better use.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:38

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Israel deliberately poisons the water supply in Gaza so the issue of digging up pipes is kind of pointless anyway because what use are pipes if all they carry is contaminated water. Hamas still shouldn't have turned them into rockets, however. It's the conversion into rockets that is the problem, not where they came from.

Ciprian Maricon posted:

Now apply this same incredible logic to the 23 Billion Israel spends on the IDF and the billions upon billions the US has given Israel in weapons over the years. Complaining about unused water pipes being turned into rockets is so ridiculous in the face of the insane amounts of money nations light on fire on war machines that could be better spent to house people, feed children, or just about anything else that would be of better use.

The money given to Israel by the west is not relevant at all to the issue of Gaza pipes. The pipes would still have been turned into rockets regardless of western financial support to the IDF, which is the problem. It's the same logic as "The US doesn't have universal healthcare because we spend so much on the military". Humanitarian usage of that money was never and will never be a thing.

This is whataboutism in a very pure form

HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 20, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:38

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

Can you grasp the range of attitudes between "I like these people and want to invite them over to my house for dinner" and "I hate these people and support the indiscriminate bombing of everyone vaguely associated with them?"

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:38

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011

Best Friends posted:

So you feel anti gay views and bigotry should preclude any support? Interesting. I wonder how other US allies in the region would fare by that calculation.

I think everyone is this thread would agree that the US shouldn't support Saudi Arabia.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:39

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

Ah, trying to pinkwash, aren't you? Don't look up what the status of interracial and same-sex marriage in Israel!

Also, one of the targets that Israel bombed last night in Gaza was an Orthodox Christian church that was sheltering mixed denomination refugees.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:40

Tortilla Maker: Dec 13, 2005; Un Desmadre A Toda Madre

Madkal posted:

~~Hamas~~The Republican Party does good for ~~Palestinians~~ Americans as long as those ~~Palestinians~~ Americans don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non ~~Muslims~~Jewish living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

Makes you wonder?

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:40

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

Collapsing Farts posted:

You don't have to go to bat for the internationally recognized terrorist organisation tbh

You should do some self reflection if this is your first reaction to seeing them humanized because of an honest assessment on the group. Sorry that the truth is more complicated than the idea that they're just evil terrorists who sit around thinking about killing.

They're an organization trying to build a state. You may not agree with the state they're trying to build but you're just putting blinders on your eyes if you just view them as evil international terrorists and not as an organization with a goal and various programs they're running in an attempt to achieve that goal. Honestly talking about the full picture isn't going to bat, it's academic discussion.

Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 20, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:41

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

HonorableTB posted:

The money given to Israel by the west is not relevant at all to the issue of Gaza pipes. The pipes would still have been turned into rockets regardless of western financial support to the IDF, which is the problem. It's the same logic as "The US doesn't have universal healthcare because we spend so much on the military". Humanitarian usage of that money was never and will never be a thing.

Absent US financial support to Israel Hamas would not exist as it currently does nor would it have won any elections. I'd rather nobody turn things into weapons but claiming they just shouldn't make weapons is a laughable position - they are kept in a prison. They are turning abandoned water pipes into rockets because of Israel's actions - actions Israel can take due to our continued support.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:48

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

HonorableTB posted:

This is whataboutism in a very pure form

It's not whataboutism, its pointing out that actually resources are finite and making a rocket means that those resources cannot be used to address other needs or be otherwise utilized. It's hypocritical to criticize Hamas for using their resources "badly" when they make weapons to engage in conflict against their enemies while the people they claim to represent have unfulfilled needs and not apply the same judgements to nations like Israel or the United States who also utilize their resources to make weapons while the people they represent have needs that are not fulfilled. It could even be argued to be worse, as the dollar figures involved show that those nations have immense capability to address the needs of their people in ways Hamas couldn't hope to, even if they didn't want to make rockets out of pipes.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:48

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:49

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Gumball Gumption posted:

You should do some self reflection if this is your first reaction to seeing them humanized because of an honest assessment on the group. Sorry that the truth is more complicated than the idea that they're just evil terrorists who sit around thinking about killing.

They're an organization trying to build a state. You may not agree with the state they're trying to build but you're just putting blinders on your eyes if you just view them as evil international terrorists and not as an organization with a goal and various programs they're running in an attempt to achieve that goal. Honestly talking about the full picture isn't going to bat, it's academic discussion.

By this logic, ISIS was an organization with a goal and various social programs and were trying to build a state.

Ciprian Maricon posted:

It's not whataboutism, its pointing out that actually resources are finite and making a rocket means that those resources cannot be used to address other needs or be otherwise utilized. It's hypocritical to criticize Hamas for using their resources "badly" when they make weapons to engage in conflict against their enemies while the people they claim to represent have unfulfilled needs and not apply the same judgements to nations like Israel or the United States who also utilize their resources to make weapons while the people they represent have needs that are not fulfilled. It could even be argued to be worse, as the dollar figures involved show that those nations have immense capability to address the needs of their people in ways Hamas couldn't hope to, even if they didn't want to make rockets out of pipes.

Those resources were never going to be dedicated to any humanitarian needs. If the US and other similar nations wanted to do that, they would. That they haven't shows they do not view this as a priority. By contrast, using what few resources you have in a wasteful manner lobbing a rocket that would be lucky to land within 20 miles of its target when it could be repurposed for a constructive use is a bad way to try to run your state, especially when the military you're shooting at levels a hospital in response. Israel is ultimately at fault for these conditions and situations, there is no disputing that.

HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Oct 20, 2023

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:50

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

mannerup posted:

not dig them up to turn into rockets and then proceed to openly brag about it in a propaganda video which will be used as evidence that water sanitation equipment is a 'dual-use' technology with Hamas converting what is seen as humanitarian aid into munitions

that would be a good start

You're right, that'd certainly end the Israeli's blockade. Perhaps the US could provide Hamas a portion of its lethal aid so they don't feel the need to scrounge around for whatever they can get their hands on when combating a nation that has continuously blockaded and bombed them.

No wait I'm being told the IDF will just lie anyways because that's how propaganda works.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:51

celadon: Jan 2, 2023

Its kind of an interesting position to hold that violence against an oppressor is justified but no weapons that are available to the oppressed are justified to use.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:52

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

this is maybe a good time to talk about the march for return in 2018?

that's probably the latest instance of ppl in gaza seeking a non-violent end to their condition of living in a concentration camp, or whatever else you'd like to call it.

it is marked by hundreds of gaza residents that are missing a leg, because israeli snipers made a point of pride to shoot these protesters at the knee.

i'm just bringing it up because a lot of talk in here lately has been about hamas bad, without reflection on what else has been tried.

so, if anyone's interested, a read up on the march for return might be interesting?

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:53

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

HonorableTB posted:

Any other use besides turning them into rockets would have been a better use of those pipes.

Also decade old water pipes are completely fine. There are cities all over the world that use water pipe infrastructure built multiple decades ago, and in some places that turns into centuries. Hell Russia has wooden pipes from the 1700s in St Petersburg that serve as pipe mains.

I don't think the main issue with water supply for Gaza is a shortage of branch pipes. Especially considering that they're typically half the diameter of a main pipe.

Madkal posted:

Hamas does good for Palestinians as long as those Palestinians don't identify as LGBTQ and their ideas of non Muslims living in Palestine/Israel is a little bit problematic

Pinkwashing was a prevalent talking point around the 2010's, and it usually goes nowhere outside of all-Zionist online communities, because the trivial answer to it is "LGBQT Palestinians aren't magnetized against airstrikes, and prioritize being alive before being openly gay"

Put in West terms: during WW2 black French resistance fighters still resisted even though their government was selling them out to the racist demands of its American ally. Many women in Afghanistan welcomed the Taliban's victory over the United States, because it meant no more US-backed rape-warlords. Alan Turing worked for UK intelligence even though he likely knew that they'd castrate/imprison/execute him the moment they learned about his orientation. There is a Hierarchy of priorities for people, and indiscriminate existential threats take priority for most over individual discrimination.

I'm sure a lot of LGBQT Gazans would prefer a government that doesn't discriminate against them, but they likely prefer a government that protects Palestinians (them included) even more.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:53

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

HonorableTB posted:

By this logic, ISIS was an organization with a goal and various social programs and were trying to build a state.

Yes. They were. It's pretty understandable why you wouldn't want to live in a ISIS ruled caliphate but if you're discussing who they are and what they do it made more sense to acknowledge the full picture and not view anyone explaining that to you as going to bat for international terrorists.

"All terrorist orgs are actually complicated political organizations running multiple programs and trying to build a state" is not really a gotcha, it's my point.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:53

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

Civilized Fishbot posted:

I think everyone is this thread would agree that the US shouldn't support Saudi Arabia.

I�m not sure why you�d assume that. But looking at allies even closer to Gaza, Israel does not have legal gay marriage, gay people face harassment in some areas, and even among citizens non-Jews have different rights and responsibilities to the state, with Muslims facing substantial discrimination.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:54

selec: Sep 6, 2003

I mean, Israel as a state was founded with a significant amount of support from terrorist organizations like Irgun. There�s nothing novel about the idea lol.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:55

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# ? May 27, 2024 13:13

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

mannerup posted:

here is the original unedited source from their own Telegram account

Thank you. It doesn't look like the ~8 seconds the IDF cut from the video were particularly important context, but the background music the IDF removed was absolutely essential to the experience.

mannerup posted:

not dig them up to turn into rockets and then proceed to openly brag about it in a propaganda video which will be used as evidence that water sanitation equipment is a 'dual-use' technology with Hamas converting what is seen as humanitarian aid into munitions

that would be a good start

Banning water purification systems because someone turned a big metal tube into a rocket is not exactly reasonable. And the pipes in question weren't humanitarian aid, they were abandoned infrastructure left behind by hostile occupiers who had invaded their land. Hamas isn't going to dig up infrastructure the population is actually using.

mannerup posted:

I don't see how that distinction makes them any different from ISIS, whose entire purpose of existing was to establish a state. I view political groups that organize and orchestrate atrocities against civilians, women and children as morally repugnant no matter how many nice things they did to gain support from the local population.

The number of political groups that don't organize and orchestrate atrocities against civilians in this conflict is unfortunately quite short, and mostly consists of political groups with so little power and support that they're unable to commit the atrocities they wish to. But the question wasn't "are they morally repugnant?", it was "do they give even the slightest poo poo about the actual material conditions of the Palestinian people?", and the answer there is unquestionably yes.

# ? Oct 20, 2023 18:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

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