|
TGLT posted:Going to go out on a limb and say those water pipes have seen regular repair and maintenance, and were not left abandoned for over a decade in a place that gets regularly bombed. Perhaps they're still serviceable, but "military salvages old abandoned settlements to supplement its arsenal" is a pretty loving different story. The point being someone asked why people are supporting Hamas as they are a terrorist organization and then other people saying well they provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians and I'm just saying that they do provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians as long as it is certain type of Palestinian.
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
HonorableTB posted:Those resources were never going to be dedicated to any humanitarian needs. If the US and other similar nations wanted to do that, they would. That they haven't shows they do not view this as a priority. By contrast, using what few resources you have in a wasteful manner lobbing a rocket that would be lucky to land within 20 miles of its target when it could be repurposed for a constructive use is a bad way to try to run your state, especially when the military you're shooting at levels a hospital in response. Israel is ultimately at fault for these conditions and situations, there is no disputing that. Resources are finite by definition every nation has "few" of them just a different order of magnitude, and any nation wasting those resources to make weapons is a terrible way to run a state. You're holding the poor and destitute to a completely different standard than the rich and powerful only because the later won't face repercussions and because they wouldn't want to use them for good anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:04
|
|
|
Madkal posted:The point being someone asked why people are supporting Hamas as they are a terrorist organization and then other people saying well they provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians and I'm just saying that they do provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians as long as it is certain type of Palestinian. You're just describing every organization that is a government or wants to be a government. Israel does a lot of Israelis, if they're the right kind. America does a lot for Americans, if they're the right kind. Australia does a lot for the right kind of Australians. It's kind of like governments are formed to codify who the members of a society are and then assist those it sees as being inside of the society and blocks aide to and possibly harms those it sees as being outside of it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
With regards to bigotry and violence against non Muslims in Gaza, has Hamas blown up any churches recently? Or ever? Israel just did. It seems like the greatest threat to Palestinian Christians is not Hamas, so if their well being is the concern, not sure why we should focus on Hamas.
Best Friends fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Madkal posted:The point being someone asked why people are supporting Hamas as they are a terrorist organization and then other people saying well they provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians and I'm just saying that they do provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians as long as it is certain type of Palestinian. True, wherever Hamas goes they install secret chips into civilian infrastructure to prevent its use by queer Palestinians. Pro-LGBTQ Israel meanwhile simply blackmails them and forces them into harm's way. (e: A second article from 2013 on this tactic) You're right that Hamas are deeply bigoted against a lot of people but it's not as if they can transfer that bigotry onto infrastructure in Gaza, or that it provides any valid justification for Israel's blockades or actions. TGLT fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Hamas, the terrorist organisation, is bad
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:10
|
|
|
Collapsing Farts posted:Hamas, the terrorist organisation, is bad Groovelord Neato posted:"Hamas provides social services" is not "Hamas is good".
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
Was the Holy Land Foundation bad? They even got the fancy "Specially Designated Global Terrorist" label.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
quote:The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad...the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism...Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews Their new charter from 2017 is somewhat more moderate, at least. But I am very comfortable calling an organization that produces that in its founding document and justification for self-existence a terrorist organization that happens to provide services in an incidental manner as required by Islam as Hamas continued increasing the influence of Sharia in the Gaza Strip. I don't believe it had anything at all to do with benevolence or wanting to improve the lives of Palestinians in Gaza. Power is a means to an end for Hamas Neurolimal posted:There's a general mystique around Hamas as a shadowy group of terrorists who don't really do anything but raid UN buildings to build rockets, but the reality is that they've been an actual government for 16 years. That doesn't make them beyond criticism, but one should disavow themselves of basic ignorance if they want to meaningfully learn about the situation & how it can be resolved. Sure, they've been a government. Just one that's autocratic and hasn't held any kind of elections since roughly half the people in Gaza were born. Can you really call that governance by desire? HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:13
|
|
|
Since the larger discussion is on Hamas and whether or not they care about Gaza needs, this seems pertinent. Published in 2013: Hamas Budget a Small Step Toward Transparency quote:The Hamas government submitted in late December of last year the 2013 budget to its legislative council. The budget, which amounted to $897 million, projected $243 million in domestic revenue, representing 27% of the total budget, with an estimated deficit of $654 million, or nearly 73%, to be covered by foreign donations. There's a general mystique around Hamas as a shadowy group of terrorists who don't really do anything but raid UN buildings to build rockets, but the reality is that they've been an actual government for 16 years. That doesn't make them beyond criticism, but one should disavow themselves of basic ignorance if they want to meaningfully learn about the situation & how it can be resolved.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:14
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:14
|
|
|
Is keeping an apartheid state as bad as being a terrorist organization? To me, they’re basically the same thing. You could even argue the apartheid state is worse because they have the power to control their own destiny, which Hamas really doesn’t have total control over their own future the way Israel does. How does the math shake out for having the power to starve or murder an entire people vs maybe just the desire to do so but no power to enact that?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
mannerup posted:Hamas has shown how little they care about human lives or civilians, so neither you or I can answer that question whether they would commit such an act. The fact they are openly bragging about converting pipes into rockets in a propaganda video only causes more harm than good. By sheer numbers of dead civilians generated, its clear that Hamas cares far more about civilian casualties than Israel does though, and therefore the press releases of Hamas or associated entities should be considered more accurate than those of the IDF or associated entities.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:17
|
|
|
selec posted:Is keeping an apartheid state as bad as being a terrorist organization? To me, they’re basically the same thing. You could even argue the apartheid state is worse because they have the power to control their own destiny, which Hamas really doesn’t have total control over their own future the way Israel does.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:19
|
|
|
mannerup posted:For the second part, I would argue they care more about their organization being the dominant political power in Palestine where they do provide for the material conditions of the Palestinian people who support them. This is generally how political parties operate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
If this is true, then Netanyahu will have a fun time trying to explain this away https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/tv-security-chiefs-had-telltale-signs-of-small-scale-attack-two-hours-before-hamas-struck/ quote:Without citing sources, Channel 12 reports that Israel’s security chiefs had “telltale signs” more than two hours before Hamas’s devastating assault on the morning of Saturday, October 7 that an attack was looming, albeit on a much smaller scale than the devastating onslaught in which 1,400 were killed by the terrorists in southern Israel. This would be a staggering failure for the security services of any country, and it tracks with what came out recently about Egypt having given Israel a warning but it was misinterpreted by the Israelis so they were looking at the West Bank and not Gaza
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:25
|
|
|
mannerup posted:Hamas has shown how little they care about human lives or civilians, so neither you or I can answer that question whether they would commit such an act. The fact they are openly bragging about converting pipes into rockets in a propaganda video only causes more harm than good. Stringent posted:this is maybe a good time to talk about the march for return in 2018?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
mannerup posted:you can do that part without also committing atrocities against civilians, women and children You can but I live in a country where neither party wants to. And they're adjacent to and are at the whims of a country whose political parties - the ones who would win elections anyway - also don't want to. So they aren't unique or any kind of outlier in that regard.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:34
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:34
|
|
|
mannerup posted:there is the option to not trust either the IDF or Hamas on civilian casualty numbers because they both have a vested interest in having that number be lower/higher to frame themselves in the best light possible, its not a situation where you have to pick one over the other since they both have a track record of outright lying I'll use the most conservative numbers for you then. 2008 Gaza War 3 Israeli civilians killed, 295 Palestinian civilians killed (IDF) 2014 Gaza War 6 Israeli civilians killed, 765(36% of 2125) Palestinian civilians killed ( Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs) 2021 Israel-Palestine Crisis 16 Israeli civilians killed, 128 Palestinian civilians killed (UN Human Rights Commisioner) So by my eye it appears that Hamas is at least 10, and up to 100 times as prudent when it comes to civilian casualties. Another convincing point in their favor is that apparently, Hamas has bombs capable of inflicting 500+ deaths, even when they misfire. Despite possessing this powerful weapon, it appears they've never deployed it against Israel, possibly due to their deep concern over inducing Israeli civilian casualties. Truly their restraint in the face of genocide is admirable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:36
|
|
|
Madkal posted:The point being someone asked why people are supporting Hamas as they are a terrorist organization and then other people saying well they provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians and I'm just saying that they do provide a lot of stuff for Palestinians as long as it is certain type of Palestinian. No, someone asked why Gaza's infrastructure was lovely and why Hamas wasn't improving it, and someone else responded with "Hamas has never been interested in improving Palestine". That was why I brought up Hamas' social services wing. HonorableTB posted:Their new charter from 2017 is somewhat more moderate, at least. But I am very comfortable calling an organization that produces that in its founding document and justification for self-existence a terrorist organization that happens to provide services in an incidental manner as required by Islam as Hamas continued increasing the influence of Sharia in the Gaza Strip. I don't believe it had anything at all to do with benevolence or wanting to improve the lives of Palestinians in Gaza. Power is a means to an end for Hamas It's okay to say "they do good things for some people and bad things for other people". You don't need to twist yourself into these ridiculous rhetorical knots to avoid ascribing any benevolent intent at all to Hamas operating soup kitchens and orphanages. You can just say "they help some people while also pursuing a violent agenda against other people", or whatever variant of that you'd prefer. Both the US and Israel provide social services for portions of their own populations while committing various atrocities and war crimes against minorities and foreign civilians as well. It's not Hamas' fault that there haven't been elections in Gaza in a while. Well, unless "the group that did a coup after losing the election refuses to allow new elections while Hamas has any chance of winning them" counts as being Hamas' fault.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Yes. They were. It's pretty understandable why you wouldn't want to live in a ISIS ruled caliphate but if you're discussing who they are and what they do it made more sense to acknowledge the full picture and not view anyone explaining that to you as going to bat for international terrorists. As has been WELL established, explaining something is, in fact, equivalent to condoning it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:45
|
|
|
mannerup posted:Israel committed atrocities against civilians, women and children during the march for return, unquestionably and unequivocally. Doesn't change my opinion of Hamas. Then you should be anti-war without concern for the belligerent. There is no major conflict that did not lead to civilian death and very very few where it was seen as a viable tactic. War crimes are not war crimes because they are morally wrong, they're crimes because you don't want to have it happen to you so you've preemptively drawn a line. It's like thinking a punch below the belt in a boxing match is illegal because it's morally wrong when really the point is to define the fight of and not just have it be 2 guys trying to punch each other in the dick because it's very effective.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:49
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:No, someone asked why Gaza's infrastructure was lovely and why Hamas wasn't improving it, and someone else responded with "Hamas has never been interested in improving Palestine". That was why I brought up Hamas' social services wing. Your first point is valid, I could've just said that. For the second point, Hamas hasn't participated in elections since 2007 but insists that any Palestinian elections must include them. How much of this goes back to the Fatah vs Hamas debacle, I don't know. Fatah as you might expect blames Hamas, Hamas in turn blames Fatah. Then there's Islamic Jihad who chimed in and said they would boycott planned votes too, under the reasoning that any elections under occupation would be a joke. Observers said Abbas abandoned the elections because he was worried about losing seats to rivals within Fatah as well as Hamas. So I will concede the elections point on the grounds that any elections would most likely be shams anyway, if Israel wanted to even let them happen in the first place It's a weird feeling but Islamic Jihad seems to have the most reasonable response. We can see what happens with Palestinian governments that are too collaborative with Israel; they still get colonized, just slightly slower. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 19:53
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:20
|
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Honest question, everyone has been talking about Israel shutting off water/electricity to Gaza, but why is it Gaza is dependent on Israel for those things in the first place? Why has Hamas from 2006 to 2023 not built their own electric plants or water purification plants? Are they just too small to run those things, or has Israel had a formal policy to stop or destroy any efforts by Hamas to build such buildings and make themselves more independent? There was a pretty great article by a poster here focusing on water in the Gaza strip (97% of which is unfit for human consumption). I believe the poster stated that Israel actually limited the amount of deep water wells that Palestine is able to dig. This made me start to look into the issue. quote:Gaza normally gets its water supplies from a combination of sources, including a pipeline from Israel, desalination plants on the Mediterranean Sea and wells. Those supplies were slashed when Israel cut off water, along with the fuel and electricity that power water and sewage plants, in the wake of the Hamas attacks. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...yGwOU3eVEaLl12e Desalination plants and an overburdened aquifer is the vast majority of water sources for Gaza. The former is selectively shut down by Israel since the latter country controls most of the electricity going into the territory. Since wells need to be dug thru machinery, this is also impacted by these electricity and fuel cuts (import blockade). Oh and about that 97 percent unusable water quote:After 16 years of a joint Israeli-Egyptian blockade, imposed after Hamas seized control of the exclave in 2007, clean water was already one of the most pressing concerns in the strip. Almost 97% of the water in Gaza’s sole aquifer is not potable; without proper maintenance and with Israeli restrictions on imports and electricity, sewage treatment plants were overwhelmed years ago. Untreated waste has flowed directly into the Mediterranean for more than a decade. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...out?bshm=rime/2 Not only that, Israel DOES require permission from ppl in Gaza to dig new wells. Here's an article covering this from decades ago quote:Israel has been restricting Palestinian water use by obligating Palestinians to request authorisation prior to any water-development constructions – such as the drilling of new wells – and by using quotas to limit Palestinians’ water pumping (Isaac, 1994). Whilst authorisations to dig new wells were rarely granted to Palestinians, 36 new wells were drilled in Jewish settlements on the West Bank between 1967 and 1989 (Lowi, 1993). https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/israel-palestine-water-sharing-conflict So Israel has caused the Palestinian water crisis in three ways: barring new wells from being dug explicitly, cutting off electricity so that they can't use seawater, and lastly controlling the import of materials and fuel to allow Palestinians from creating new plants or pulling from existing or new wells. It's been a long term strangulation taking place over decades. Oh and about that aquifer, one reason why it's so taxed is that Israel has been pulling from it for years, even from Gaza territory. quote:Meanwhile, Israel extracted heavily from the Coastal Aquifer, which runs continuously under both Gaza and Israel—and, of course, is a natural feature that doesn’t observe borders.20 Withdrawing water for use in Israel depletes the water available in Gaza. Some Israeli wells have even been drilled within Gaza. For example, Israel developed a series of wells within Gaza extracting 5–8 mcm/y to irrigate crops cultivated in its settlements there (Israel dismantled those settlements in Gaza in 2005). These extractions represented about 6 percent of Gaza’s water use at the time.21 https://tcf.org/content/report/saving-gaza-begins-water/ And once again, Israel actually prevents Palestinians from gaining new water sources (I need to repeat it to believe it myself, it's so shocking) quote:Farmers are prevented from drilling new wells or improving old ones, installing pumps and even collecting rainwater, where their springs are seized and their water tanks, cisterns and pipelines destroyed while settlements and roads serving "Eretz Israel" are erected on their agricultural land. https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/how-israel-weaponises-water-gaza-strip
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
A quick note on "whataboutism": Could potentially be whataboutism: "What about (3rd party, especially if not significantly involved), they also do (bad thing)" Not whataboutism, or at least not probatable whataboutism: "What about (one of the two belligerents specifically stated in the thread title), they also do (bad thing)"
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
HonorableTB posted:We can see what happens with Palestinian governments that are too collaborative with Israel; they still get colonized, just slightly slower. Which government are you talking about? The PA?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
mannerup posted:I disagree with this interpretation, the entire point of war crimes is to establish a peremptory norm around certain actions that are morally unacceptable in all cases, hence the universal jurisdiction to pursue them in the Geneva Convention. Jus cogens are inherently moral in nature, and I disagree with the consequentialist argument you make on them where the utility is where the morality lies for war crimes. I'll add to this disagreement that the history of International Law and the Geneva Convention agreements in particular came directly out of moral outrage, not a fear of reprisal. Henry Dunnant wasn't worried about himself being left wounded on a battlefield.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:39
|
|
|
Zzulu posted:My bad, they didn't use EU donated pipes. They just dug up regular old water pipes, to make rockets with, From an abandoned illegal settlement Like I don't know what you're expecting from Hamas, they're what counts for a government in Gaza whether we like it or not and they have limited means to produce weapons, they're using what they have to fight an insurgency against an occupier If Israel is tired of rockets and bombs from Gaza maybe they should stop bombing and killing Palestinians If Israel is tired of dealing with Hamas and PIJ maybe they should go a generation without brutally oppressing the Palestinians and see if they want to move away from militant separatism The current conflict provides the context for why Hamas needs to dig up water pipes and fill them with explosives As it stands I can't think of a significant period of time in my adult life where Israelis weren't letting settlers abuse the west bank or actively bombing Gaza and at some point I realized that the Gazans weren't the problem Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:45
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/sh_grewal/status/1715418185921699975?s=46 https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1715437877604049094?s=46 theCalamity fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:46
|
|
|
Medhi Hasan also posted some findings from the University of London that cast doubt on the IDF's claims about what happened. https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1715429352697934331 Between the projectile coming from the opposite direction that IDF claimed (which is to say, from the direction of Israel) as well as the probably-faked audio, it seems like there's very little reason to put much stock in the IDF's version of events.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 20:57
|
|
|
B B posted:Medhi Hasan also posted some findings from the University of London that cast doubt on the IDF's claims about what happened. The IDF, and American intelligence, lying? Well I for one am surprised by this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
B B posted:Medhi Hasan also posted some findings from the University of London that cast doubt on the IDF's claims about what happened. Also, you can just look at the video, and no loving poo poo, it wasn't a fragment of a Hamas rocket. I don't need 8 kinds of expert analysis to reach that blindingly obvious conclusion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:04
|
|
|
I can’t get my head around ignoring the faked audio. Like how do you trust a source after they try to pull that poo poo? Is it just “everybody lies, so what” and move on? Because that level of ostentatious disrespect for the people trying to make good faith arguments on your behalf seems rhetorically suicidal. Does releasing fake audio mean you are beyond caring what anyone thinks, and just feeding the people you need to feed propaganda to keep the cognitive dissonance tamped down internally? That’s the only sense I can make of it; they aren’t actually interested in convincing anyone, they intend to act with impunity, and frauds and faked evidence are for consumption by true believers, not intended for meaningful consideration by anyone else.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:05
|
|
|
An artillery shell? Well that's interesting. So it may have been counter battery fire?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:06
|
|
|
mitztronic posted:Which government are you talking about? The PA? Yes, specifically the version of the PA that renounced terrorism in 1988 and fell into conflict with Hamas in the mid 2000s, not their pre-1988 iteration which was comparably much more violent. Maybe collaborationist was too harsh of a term, but Fatah being more or less tolerated by Israel in comparison to how Israel interacts with Hamas is what I am trying to highlight. Promoting non-violent resistance and such gets you ignored for a while (and when you weren't looking you lost another chunk of land to a settlement!) in favor of dealing with groups that take a violent approach HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:06
|
|
|
HonorableTB posted:We can see what happens with Palestinian governments that are too collaborative with Israel; they still get colonized, just slightly slower. Do you mean that they get colonized way, way faster? Because Israel hasn't tried to colonize the Gaza Strip while it's been in Hamas' hands, while the West Bank has been absolutely ravaged by settlements.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
PostNouveau posted:Do you mean that they get colonized way, way faster? Because Israel hasn't tried to colonize the Gaza Strip while it's been in Hamas' hands, while the West Bank has been absolutely ravaged by settlements. That's...a really good point I didn't think about. I am an idiot
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2023 21:19
|
|