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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 15:13
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Main Paineframe posted:Incidentally, this is very similar to how Israeli militias behaved in 1948. Some massacred entire villages, others were far less bloodthirsty and focused mainly on what was militarily necessity (though they considered "covering up their allies' massacres" to be militarily necessary). It's almost as if loosely-organized coalitions of militants driven to warfare against what they perceive to be an existential threat are very diverse in their approaches.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:16
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mannerup posted:bumping Koos Group's offer for a translation of this I watched both of her interviews when they were first posted here. The 30-minute interview is the earlier one, and she still doesn't know what happened to most of the rest of the hostages, but at the very end she says she's worried that if they died, it was from the crossfire because there was a crazy amount of shooting going on (40 v 40 according to her). She didn't see any of the hostages die herself. The shorter interview is a few days later and she's already gotten the news that her partner and the others died and she believes they died from the crossfire. I don't think these interviews are conclusive evidence of anything in this particular case and I think Brucolac got it right here: Brucolac posted:The reporting immediately following suggested different groups of militants behaved very differently. Some committed horrific atrocities, some were much less bloodthirsty. I've read and heard more than a few witness testimonies that mention Hamas militants sparing some and rarely all hostages. I imagine the orders were to kill and take hostages and everyone mostly decided for themselves how far they were willing to go. edit: I will add this link, though it's in Hebrew, because it's mentioned (in passing) that IDF commanders had to make "difficult decisions" in Be'eri including firing on homes while the hostages were inside. I can't find a translation of this piece on the English version of Haaretz alas. It's definitely not impossible that something like this happened, though considering how long it took the IDF to even show up at most places I personally doubt it accounts for a significant portion of the deaths. Sway Grunt fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 15:19
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Zzulu posted:How do we go about destroying both Hamas and the Israeli government
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Oct 21, 2023 15:27
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World Famous W posted:stay focused on the one running the open air prison which is being denied the supplies to survive. once that's resolved you'll likely have an easier time with dealing with what was born from those conditions Yeah; the answer to ‘what do we do about the angry oppressed people in the open air prison’ is ‘free them from the open air prison, treat them as people, and punish their oppressor’.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:38
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Inferior Third Season posted:Interpreting Hamas's attack as being primarily about wanting to kill Jews rather than retaliating against oppression has very strong "they hate us for our freedoms" vibes. The way they went about it is vile and heartbreaking and a war crime. But we can understand their actual motivations without condoning what they did or falling into the 'gotta hand it to em' trap. It's like saying that Ukrainians are only fighting back against Russia because they want to kill all the Russians. I've thought about this a lot. I've thought about it in my comfortable chair, in front of my powerful computer with working electricity and internet, in my comfortable home with clean water and working heat, in a country where I belong to the dominant class and have never in my life had to even think about being oppressed. And I've come to the conclusion that I can't even begin to understand what it's like to be a Palestinian in Gaza. I can't condone the initial attack, but I also can't rightfully condemn it, because I have absolutely no idea how I'd act in that situation. If you grew up in a concentration camp, had your family killed by random bombings or snipers, you knew nothing about your captors because you had never even seen them in your life, and then one day the walls came down and you were given a gun and told to fight for your freedom, what would you do? I don't think anyone here has the moral framework to give an accurate answer to that.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:39
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Fister Roboto posted:It's like saying that Ukrainians are only fighting back against Russia because they want to kill all the Russians. I've had a lot of those same thoughts, and have reached a similar lack of conclusions. It seems like in the West's narrative about Hamas there's been a distinct lack of asking "Why would they do this?" and a preponderance of, "Well, of course those people would do that." What strikes me as a lot less confusing is the Israeli response, which is basically what the West did after 9/11. I know they're disparate incidents and shouldn't be conflated too heavily, but the similarities are there in my opinion, and it really seems like we didn't learn much in the intervening 20 years, which I really do find deplorable. Stringent fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 15:52
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ummel posted:I'll take your word for it, but I was under the impression the at least tried to kidnap or kill everyone they came across, even non-Israelis (eg, Arabs & Asian migrant workers). Have there been survivor stories where people were spared? Genuinely asking because I haven't seen any. In the immediate aftermath there was more than one report of them sparing people. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-ofakim-one-womans-graceful-bravery-offers-precious-solace-to-a-grieving-nation/ quote:The Edrys’ next-door neighbor, 60-year-old Shmuel Schwartz, also had a close encounter with a terrorist, which he described with humor. “I came out to see what the noise was. A man strapping an AK-47 put his hand around my shoulder and started walking with me in the direction I was headed. I didn’t say anything and neither did he. Then I asked myself: ‘Hey, why am I walking around with this guy like he’s my girlfriend?’ so I kind of shrugged him off and kept walking. I have no idea why he didn’t shoot me,” said Schwartz
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Oct 21, 2023 15:52
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 16:04
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One of the leaders of the Democratic Party Sen. Schumer says wanting a cease fire is akin to supporting Hamas. https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1715489049459220839 BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 16:12
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I made a mistake by going on Reddit to read about any updates about all of this. There's so much fuckin attempts at justifying hate it's just gross. Sometimes I feel like I'm back in the early 2000s, going through the same motions of "America, gently caress yeah! gently caress all dem terrorist A-rabs" but just replace America with Israel but like lmao Biden and his ilk have shown that there's no distinction between the two countries at all really.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:12
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At any rate, the Israeli government is a fascist regime hellbent on genociding Palestinians. https://twitter.com/jonathan_k_cook/status/1715643961090445674?s=46
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Oct 21, 2023 16:13
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mannerup posted:I can't accept the moral relativist framework as an argument where attributing morality to actions is not possible because you reject the premise of normative ethics. It is a philosophically incoherent position to hold. I wouldn't say I'm arguing for moral relativism, but rather to not judge the attack as an incident completely isolated from history and context.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:16
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mannerup posted:I can't accept the moral relativist framework as an argument where attributing morality to actions is not possible because you reject the premise of normative ethics. It is a philosophically incoherent position to hold. What would you suggest the "moral" solution is for Palestinians is considering when they try peaceful marches they get murdered and crippled en masse like at the Great March of Return.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:17
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Fister Roboto posted:It's like saying that Ukrainians are only fighting back against Russia because they want to kill all the Russians. On top of this I think we need to stop calling Hamas' attack the initial attack. To them it is not an initial attack, it is retaliation for a year of some of the worst settler attacks on Palestinians and another volley in a very long conflict. Even some leftist politicians in Israel see this as retaliation for the pogroms and not an "initial attack" https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/israeli-lawmaker-blames-pogroms-against-palestinians-for-terrible-attacks
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Oct 21, 2023 16:20
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The associated press has posted their analysis of the Hospital explosion https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3 Not that it matters as everyone seems to be more interested in rushing out their version and defending their side than finding the truth. Same as it every was.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:21
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Noise Complaint posted:What would you suggest the "moral" solution is for Palestinians is considering when they try peaceful marches they get murdered and crippled en masse like at the Great March of Return. Okay I'm going to regret this because it's not like this argument hasn't played out exactly the same way a million times and there isn't really anything new to say, but the Palestinians have rejected every single peace deal that's ever been on the table. Now you might not think that any of the deals they have been offered were any good or should have been accepted but the course of the conflict has been that the Palestinians have repeatedly made the strategic decision to reject offers in the expectation that in the long term they will be able to get better terms, with the reality being that every time they have done this the terms on offer have gotten worse. Yeah Israel has all the power and that makes it incumbent on Israel to be the party driving for a serious peace, but one of the big blockers to be overcome that is in the Palestinian camp is that getting to a deal is going to require their society to come to terms with the fact that their national strategy for the last 75 years has been a disaster.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:26
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daslog posted:The associated press has posted their analysis of the Hospital explosion quote:“You can see obviously it fails in flight, it spins out and disintegrates, and the impacts on the ground follow that,” So if it already disintegrated, what caused the massive explosion?
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Oct 21, 2023 16:27
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BUUNNI posted:One of the leaders of the Democratic Party Sen. Schumer says wanting a cease fire is akin to supporting Hamas. Wow. Pretty out of touch considering that much of the people who consider themselves to be democrats support a ceasefire and want more aid give to Gaza. Schumer has more contempt for those who want a ceasefire than the GOP who want to genocide trans people. Has he called anyone from the GOP a terrorist for their horrible policies?
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Oct 21, 2023 16:28
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An article about the fallout of the Harvard letter that blamed the Hamas attack solely on Israel: https://archive.ph/dSSYp This section made my jaw drop a bit. 
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Oct 21, 2023 16:33
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Alchenar posted:Okay I'm going to regret this because it's not like this argument hasn't played out exactly the same way a million times and there isn't really anything new to say, but the Palestinians have rejected every single peace deal that's ever been on the table. What offers? Israel has stated that they intend on shrinking Gaza further. Settlers still take Palestinian homes in the West Bank. Anything other than completely ending the forced imprisonment is not worthwhile. daslog posted:The associated press has posted their analysis of the Hospital explosion The problem with this analysis is that it depends on the rocket breaking up and the explosion being linked without any proof of that. They worked backwards from an assumption that the rocket was the cause and say themselves in the article that without ground forensics, which both Israel and the US rejected, there can be no real proof of this happening. It also does not address the original geolocated video from the balcony, which clearly sounds just like an air dropped munition, the same as every other one Israel has lobbed into Gaza.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:33
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Alchenar posted:Okay I'm going to regret this because it's not like this argument hasn't played out exactly the same way a million times and there isn't really anything new to say, but the Palestinians have rejected every single peace deal that's ever been on the table. This is historically inaccurate considering Arafat opened up discussions. I recommend refreshing yourself in the Oslo Accord and what happened https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/phone/the-price-of-oslo.html
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Oct 21, 2023 16:34
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Noise Complaint posted:
As they mentioned in their piece, no one will ever be 100% certain without being able to do a forensic investigation of the site. They also said this about the balcony video quote:About 10 minutes after the multiple rocket launches from Gaza were captured on video Tuesday night, posts began to appear on social media. The AP verified a video taken from a balcony near the hospital that shows the moment of impact, with the loud whizzing sound followed by a huge fireball and the clap of a massive explosion. AP could find no visual evidence to support speculation that the blast was triggered by a car bomb or other such device.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:38
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 16:39
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Noise Complaint posted:What offers? Israel has stated that they intend on shrinking Gaza further. Settlers still take Palestinian homes in the West Bank. Anything other than completely ending the forced imprisonment is not worthwhile. lol, it's all just garbage in garbage out. there's no forensics done. it's all just based on "OSINT EXPERTS" which are empire cutouts that sell whatever line america and it's allies demand by analyzing grainy videos. this gvt rep literally says that an independent investigation is "inappropriate" at this time while hamas welcomes it (https://twitter.com/dimitrilascaris/status/1715137246431449451). if you don't think israel bombed that hospital (which it had bombed before and demanded they evacuate before they bomb again) you have brain worms.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:42
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daslog posted:The associated press has posted their analysis of the Hospital explosion quote:One of the rockets appears to veer from the others, away from the distant lights of Israel and back toward a darkened Gaza City, where electricity has largely been cut. The camera follows the light from the rocket’s tail as it arches in the sky upwards and toward the left. Suddenly, the rocket seems to fragment, and a piece appears to break off and fall. Another fragment shoots sharply up and to the right, blazing before it explodes in a fireworks-like flash, leaving a brief trail of sparks. This is literally just, verbatim, Israel's stated stance: https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1715052724952179075 Which isn't surprising, seeing as: quote:“In the absence of additional evidence, the most likely scenario would be that it was a rocket launched from Gaza that failed mid-flight and that it mistakenly hit the hospital,” said Henry Schlottman, a former U.S. Army intelligence analyst and open-source intelligence expert. That's all BROSINT morons have been doing the entire war. It's laughably trite compared to what non-US affiliated/NED-sponsored sources are providing: https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1715437877604049094 I know D&D (in general, not accusing anyone particular) still has some sort of misplaced faith in US Journalism, but this is literally stenography. They're acting as court stenographers, using OSINT as an intermediary to keep their hands clean.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:43
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Mister Fister posted:An article about the fallout of the Harvard letter that blamed the Hamas attack solely on Israel: That student letter is a complete nothing burger. There was literally nothing in it that was said that was even remotely controversial.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:45
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Alchenar posted:Okay I'm going to regret this because it's not like this argument hasn't played out exactly the same way a million times and there isn't really anything new to say, but the Palestinians have rejected every single peace deal that's ever been on the table. You have a source for this? Because I have sources that claim otherwise. It's Israel that violates peace deals. quote:Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine?bshm=rime/2 Israel has gone to pains to violate or undermine any peace deal with the Palestinians in their colonialist mission to grab more land. It's made any sort of agreement a joke that that Israel disregards at their leisure.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:45
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daslog posted:As they mentioned in their piece, no one will ever be 100% certain without being able to do a forensic investigation of the site. They also said this about the balcony video I think Channel 4's deconstruction of it is a much better take than the AP's while coming to a similar solution, but pointing out just how bad the rocket narrative is: https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion mannerup posted:as I have said multiple times before, not committing atrocities against civilians, women and children. If you want to make the argument that Hamas committed morally indefensible acts because of the material conditions, I would accept that. I can't accept what they did is morally defensible in any sense. I would like to see an independent investigation of the atrocities to verify that the majority were not killed by IDF crossfire before I make a solid judgement on that. Given the sheer amount of lies the IDF has been caught in, the burden of proof should be on them. Hamas seems to have had military targets and successfully hit them. We should not be accepting anything Israel says as fact given they are both the aggressors, and the people actively carrying out a genocide.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:46
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I said come in! posted:That student letter is a complete nothing burger. There was literally nothing in it that was said that was even remotely controversial. Saying israel was solely responsible for Hamas torturing/murdering/raping civilians is quite controversial.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:48
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I said come in! posted:That student letter is a complete nothing burger. There was literally nothing in it that was said that was even remotely controversial. Thus the need to come down even more forcefully and make an example of these people. Harvard is where we train future leaders, that’s where we grow our ruling class. You need to discipline them the hardest because even minor infractions are unacceptable from people you expect to sign off on even worse crimes in the future.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:48
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theCalamity posted:At any rate, the Israeli government is a fascist regime hellbent on genociding Palestinians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2023 16:50
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daslog posted:The associated press has posted their analysis of the Hospital explosion The doppler analysis and 3d crater analysis by Forensic Architecture at University London seems far more credible in that its conclusions come from what evidence we do know as actual provable fact. The audio of the inbound ordnance and where that audio was recorded; and what it did to the ground where it hit. Both of which indicated that the weapon was coming outbound from Israeli positions and into the Strip. They don't claim certainty yet because they are preliminary results, but they seem more independent and actually qualified than a copy paste of the IDF's version of events verified by a random American Osint Guy.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:00
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67181514 Cairo Summit: Arab leaders reject forced displacement of Palestinians quote:Egypt's President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi has said he rejects the forced displacement of Palestinians into the Sinai peninsula as the first aid convoy entered Gaza after two weeks of war. Arab states reiterating that Palestinians will not be displaced into other territory. Also, Israel apparently stating the aid cannot go into North Gaza.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:01
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Mister Fister posted:An article about the fallout of the Harvard letter that blamed the Hamas attack solely on Israel: Good, more students should voice their opinion on Israel thee genocidal settler state. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 17:06
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Mister Fister posted:An article about the fallout of the Harvard letter that blamed the Hamas attack solely on Israel: I mean, they're not wrong. Theoretically the children of the most powerful people in the world would be off-limits to harassment and blacklisting, but they underestimated just how zealous pro-Israel consensus among the intelligence blob has become. I think it still could (if it has not already behind-the-scenes) backfire, as said powerful people are going to remember that Israel's lobbyists & proxy organizations tried to turn their children into pariahs.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:10
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ummel posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67181514 It’s wild seeing even just a suggestion of ethnically cleansing Palestinians via a Trail of Tears-esque displacement method
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Oct 21, 2023 17:15
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daslog posted:
Yeah, some people. Not me though. I am the perfect impartial arbitrator of reality. No emotion. I just let the evidence roll in and let the chips fall where they may.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:22
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Alchenar posted:Okay I'm going to regret this because it's not like this argument hasn't played out exactly the same way a million times and there isn't really anything new to say, but the Palestinians have rejected every single peace deal that's ever been on the table. Israel has also assassinated just about every Palestinian that has tried to, in good faith, broker a peace deal or cease-fire.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:37
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I find it very hard to believe, almost impossible in fact (but not guaranteed, there's always a chance however small that it could have been a Hamas/Islamic Jihad rocket), that the IDF wasn't responsible for the parking lot strike at the hospital. I don't mean responsible in terms of "Israel caused the material conditions which allow for this to happen", I mean directly. Let me describe the typical Hamas rocket: An overwhelming percentage of their 'missiles' are unguided, indiscriminate rockets that are made out of hardware store parts and powered by KNO3 (stump remover and sugar) motors. The explosives are primarily fertilizer, and set off by a rifle cartridge set off by a nail. This is what we call the Qassam rocket. These rockets cannot be fired to target specific objectives and are indiscriminate when used against targets in population centers. Just by the law of averages, for Hamas to have one of THOSE rockets misfire specifically enough to land in a hospital packed with wounded and fleeing civilians requires so many grains of salt as to constitute an entire mine. The majority of their weapons simply aren't sophisticated enough to do anything but cause stress to Israel in general and make them trade 2-3 $50,000 Iron Dome guided missiles to take out a $800 hobbyshop rocket equivalent. Edit: I should clarify that Hamas does have access to rockets which are much better than the Qassam, comparatively speaking. However, those would be things like Grad rockets, which are..also unguided and fired on a ballistic trajectory and have no real accuracy to speak of. Grads were meant to be area saturation rockets fired in salvos of dozens at a time per launcher, with multiple launchers per unit. The odds are still overwhelmingly against that being a weapon fired by Hamas, however. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 18:10
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