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Alhazred posted:Hmm..I dont reall Latuff doing a similar cartoon about the Ukraine-Russia war. Why does that matter?
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Oct 21, 2023 09:01
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Fister Roboto posted:Why does that matter? Because Latuff is a propagandist working for several authoritarian governments. idonotlikepeas posted:Is anyone still arguing that about Latuff? He's been pretty blatant about it for a long time now.
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Oct 21, 2023 09:02
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Alhazred posted:Hmm..I dont reall Latuff doing a similar cartoon about the Ukraine-Russia war. Indeed his were more along the lines of "YEAH KILL THEM ALL!!! ALSO IT IS AMERICA'S FAULT!" Fister Roboto posted:Why does that matter?  He's pointing out the hypocrisy of Latuff's comics. He would absolutely never do a comic about Russia cruelly and evilly bombing Ukraine and trying to slaughter them and destroy their infrastructure, because he thinks that's a good thing when Russia does it.
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Oct 21, 2023 09:02
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Supposed Libertarian Ben Garrison is also openly calling for the return of the USSR and saying that the Baltic states actually loved being part of the Moscow/Eurasianist sphere of influence. The sinister and disruptive influence of Karl Marx is lurking behind every corner of the American state, education system, news media, and military, but was completely absent from the Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic, 1940-1990.
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Oct 21, 2023 10:57
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Every word of that quote is accurate except for government. The actual word there is Congress, as in not the branch of government giving the gag order. Gee I wonder why he changed that one word specifically
The Islamic Shock fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 11:32
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From the waffleimages thread:
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Oct 21, 2023 12:07
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Latuff's entire politics seem to stem from "if the US government likes it, it's bad", which isn't a terrible rule of thumb on the whole but well, stopped clocks and all that
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Oct 21, 2023 12:39
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I think he's more anti-French than anti-American, because his whole start was "the European Scramble for Africa was an atrocity and the actions of France in West Africa especially continue to hold back the region." Which is also very true. Frence and Belgian and British colonialism in Africa were very bad, and Cuban MiGs in Angola stopping the spread of apartheid South Africa were good. If you don't turn that off though, you can end up with "Wagner Group bravely defending Africa from..." and that doesn't need a second half to start being bullshit.
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Oct 21, 2023 13:02
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https://twitter.com/KartoonistKelly/status/1715458405597372459?s=20 New Kelly https://twitter.com/EandPCartoons/status/1715427662670295414?s=20 Not a new Kelly
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Oct 21, 2023 13:09
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Sounds like systematic inequity can have many forms and is prevalent
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Oct 21, 2023 13:10
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Guavanaut posted:I think he's more anti-French than anti-American, because his whole start was "the European Scramble for Africa was an atrocity and the actions of France in West Africa especially continue to hold back the region." Yeah. There's some small communist parties where I live, and they are still so terminally stuck in the 1960's era of thought. If the US supports something, it has to be evil. If the US opposes it, it has to be good. Thus you end up with taking a stand in defense of Al-Assad or arguing that North Korea is just misunderstood. Like you can both condemn US foreign policy for being hypocritical and bad while also condemning the Syrian regime dropping barrel bombs on city blocks, you know? They're not exclusive positions.
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Oct 21, 2023 13:36
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Erenthal posted:Yeah. There's some small communist parties where I live, and they are still so terminally stuck in the 1960's era of thought. If the US supports something, it has to be evil. If the US opposes it, it has to be good. Thus you end up with taking a stand in defense of Al-Assad or arguing that North Korea is just misunderstood. Like you can both condemn US foreign policy for being hypocritical and bad while also condemning the Syrian regime dropping barrel bombs on city blocks, you know? They're not exclusive positions. Also, the Russian state floating various conspiracies as to why they are invading Ukraine such as bullshit about chemical labs. Even so, Putin himself has been pretty forthright in his speeches that the war is intended to reclaim what he sees as imperial Russian territory, stomp out the any notion of Ukrainian identity, and take his right place in history along Peter the Great. Russia makes no pretext of being a communist state and it's current invasion is classic empire building, there is really no way to defend it.
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Oct 21, 2023 14:02
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 Guardian:  "Martin Rowson on US attempts to stop the Israel-Hamas war widening – Joe Biden has urged Benjamin Netanyahu not to make the mistakes the US did after 9/11" Also! "Can political cartoons survive in an age of sensitivity?" - Alan Rusbridger Telegraph:  ‘Political earthquake’ as Tories lose two major seats in by-elections The i paper:  "By-election disaster shows no seat is safe for the Conservatives as Starmer gets closer to No 10" Times:  Rishi Sunak renews plea for Gaza aid during visit to Egypt
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Oct 21, 2023 14:43
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Angepain posted:Latuff's entire politics seem to stem from "if the US government likes it, it's bad", which isn't a terrible rule of thumb on the whole but well, stopped clocks and all that Guavanaut posted:I think he's more anti-French than anti-American, because his whole start was "the European Scramble for Africa was an atrocity and the actions of France in West Africa especially continue to hold back the region." I'd generalize it as "anti-West". Like, there is this vague notion of Western Culture that he's set up in opposition to at this point, just as a lot of people have set themselves up as champions of it. And, as both of you pointed out, Latuff hits a lot because a lot of things countries in that group do are, genuinely, bad. But he's not drawing the cartoons based on whether they're objectively bad or not, he's drawing them based on whether it's a thing he can cast as bad that the other team is doing. Here are some things he reposted recently from earlier in the Russia/Ukraine war:    But what does he have to say about Ukraine itself, if he's so keen on pointing out how similar the conflicts are?      In other words: you're a hypocrite if you support Ukraine fighting for freedom against its oppressors, but don't support Palestine. I, an intelligent man, am not a hypocrite when I refer to the Ukrainians as Nazis, criticize other countries for offering Ukraine their support, and justify Russia's invasion. Of course, the conflicts aren't perfectly symmetrical; after all, Ukraine has been aiming at military targets and trying to minimize civilian deaths. Speaking of which, what did he post at the beginning of this conflict, when Hamas committed a number of blatant war crimes by, among other things, deliberately murdering innocent civilians?   He completely erased their crimes, much in the same way a lot of the other cartoonists in this thread are erasing Israel's crimes right now. Because, for some people, it isn't about who's right and who's wrong, it's about what can be pinned on the other side. He wants to cast himself as a champion of justice, but if he really were that, he'd have something to say about a bunch of kids getting killed at a party for no military benefit whatsoever. (To be clear, for someone of my age a person in their early 20s is still a kid.) Tangentally related, but I wanted to highlight another cartoon:  In this one, Israel's actions being fully justified isn't even the point, it's a background detail that is assumed so that Kal can make a comic about something else. This loving sucks, and I didn't even have the energy last night to write about how much it sucks when I posted it. It's always rougher when a cartoonist you like or usually agree with drops something like this, and I feel like Latuff sometimes falls into this category. I'll often agree with points he's trying to make for several cartoons in a row, but then I'll run into a reminder of how much of a hypocritical dickhead he is and it upsets me all over again.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:07
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Oct 21, 2023 15:47
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Thanks for this post. I'm going to be totally honest and say that I don't find anything objectionable about his stance on the Ukraine war, especially in comparison to the Palestinian apartheid. It doesn't seem like he supports the invasion, but is rather criticizing the US for profiting off it. The first one in particular is very similar to an Eli Valley one that I see a lot:  I understand why some people don't like Latuff, but I don't really agree with it I guess.
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Oct 21, 2023 15:57
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This is a wildly confused metaphor, because most of the time anything involving Fishman and dinosaurs is some thinly veiled racism or anti-progressivism, but here it's just "congress old" isn't it? Or are the mammals the great replacement now or some poo poo? "What song?" "Oh, you know the one."
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Oct 21, 2023 16:15
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Fister Roboto posted:Thanks for this post. I'm going to be totally honest and say that I don't find anything objectionable about his stance on the Ukraine war, especially in comparison to the Palestinian apartheid. It doesn't seem like he supports the invasion, but is rather criticizing the US for profiting off it. His position is that Western support is preventing "peace," in order to drive Ukrainian into the EU. You know, the peace where Putin wins the war by conquering Ukraine and can start the cultural genocide in full. Latuff is not shining a light on hypocrisy, but is the hypocrite through his complete and obvious disregard for Ukrainians, simply so he can hold onto his reflexive anti-Western stance.
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Oct 21, 2023 16:38
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Latuff is absolutely a contrarian who just opposes anything the west supports and vice versa, which makes him right plenty of the time, but the thing about contrarians is even when they're right they're still insufferable.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:40
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Fister Roboto posted:Thanks for this post. I'm going to be totally honest and say that I don't find anything objectionable about his stance on the Ukraine war, especially in comparison to the Palestinian apartheid. It doesn't seem like he supports the invasion, but is rather criticizing the US for profiting off it. The first one in particular is very similar to an Eli Valley one that I see a lot: I don't think it's wrong to say "you should support oppressed people no matter who they are". But Latuff does not actually support Ukraine, and has drawn several cartoons to that effect (some of which I posted above). I can't really read the "Ukrainians are actually Nazis" cartoon any other way, personally. That's the thing that gets to me about it - if he'd been supportive of both Ukraine and Palestinians on the basis of both of them being oppressed, that would be a consistent position. But he only uses that similarity as a rhetorical weapon against people who don't support Palestine, while simultaneously making GBS threads on Ukraine whenever he's not trying to make that specific point. That said, I can certainly try to dig up a little more specific evidence, since perhaps his stance on Ukraine is not obvious from what I already posted. Here's a cartoon where he claims that Russia attacking Ukraine was the United States' fault:  Note that he actually sent this cartoon directly to the @Ukraine twitter account in response to them asking people to tell Russia what they think of them. Here's him retweeting a claim that this is "a proxy war against Russia in Ukraine": https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1606017603113140225 Here's him making the same statement himself, while also adding that Russia was provoked into this war rather than the true position of Russia being run by a fascist who invaded its neighbor for no reason other than to steal their land: https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1499622738293624836 A similar statement, except he's also implying in this one that somehow Ukraine started the war (note: pushed Ukraine, not Russia): https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1535633104110592000 Here's him drawing a false equivalence while simultaneously poo-pooing the concept of Russian propaganda (probably because he works for MintPress, an outfit that is part of the Russian propaganda infrastructure and which, incidentally, views the current Ukrainian government as illegitimate): https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1506429986915467264 Here's him flat-out saying Ukraine is full of Nazis, although it's from 2014: https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/436064989133029376 Not directly a shot at Ukraine, but one of my favorite cartoons he's ever done, incidentally:  This one was posted by MintPress News on, get this, February 21st, 2022. Russia invaded on the 24th. Soon, indeed! He also chose to repost this golden oldie on February 25th:  Latuff stops short of saying "I hope all the Ukrainians die". It's possible (probable, even) that he genuinely doesn't want that to happen, but he definitely subscribes to Russia's view of the war: it's not their fault they had to start it and the only way out is for Ukraine to surrender and give them everything they want in the name of peace. Whether he supports the oppressor against the oppressed seems to depend on whether the forces of the oppressor are signing his paychecks, much like Ted Rall (whom he has retweeted a few times, in fact). EDIT: I think it would be fair to say that he has two points of view on actual Ukrainians that he flips back and forth on as it suits him. In the one, they're just Nazis. No further conclusions are drawn from that; the implications of them being Nazis are simply left as an exercise for the viewer. In the other, they don't exist. Their existence is implied, but they have no actual agency as a people; their country is a battleground in which Russia is waging a brave war against the forces of the West, and maybe some sad things are happening there, but if they are ever depicted it will definitely be made clear that it's the fault of the West for supplying weapons to the area. (To whom are they supplied? It's a mystery. Why? Because of the lust the U.S. has for Russian blood.) idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 18:15
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There doesn't need to be a detailed analysis of Latuff's beliefs because he's a propagandist working on behalf of authoritarian regimes. That's where his comics stem from- money, from authoritarians, to spread propaganda. His work continuously appearing in mintpress and global times should be sufficient to establish this. It's also yet another object lesson in how motivated reasoning can make someone a channel for propaganda talking points, even if they're so obvious that they're literal giant bloody hands cartoons coming directly from named propaganda outlets. If you find yourself defending it, you should really stop and take stock of what it means about how you're approaching information. The fact that one could find his selective framing (as well-characterized by idonotlikepeas) agreeable does not actually change its motives, purpose or effect. Nor should it be surprising or counterintuitive that you do. Unlike almost all of the stuff in this thread, with Latuff, we are the target. Particularly damning in this regard is the comic with "redfish" on it posted earlier in the page. Redfish was one of a network of relatively briefly set up alternate disinformation platforms that served as deniable mediators for Russia for several years, specifically to target US leftists. It was wound down when the general press identified its backers too quickly and promoted the fact too broadly- though even then it was successfully poisoning brains and dialogue (including on SA) for several years. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 18:36
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every cartoon in this thread is propaganda for lovely governments for the most part. not all, but most edit: for lovely governments i mean. all of them are propaganda for something
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Oct 21, 2023 18:46
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China Daily Ban on chips by Luo Jie  Le Monde France : Dominique Bernard, un nouveau meurtre d’enseignant, trois ans après Samuel Paty/France: Dominique Bernard, the latest murder of a teacher, 3 years after Samuel Paty by Urbs from France  An era full of shi** "Well? What armed nutjob is going to ruin our day this time?"  by Dilem from AlgeriaMr Bernard's Final Lesson Courage  by Chappatte from SwitzerlandVictory of a Pro-European party in Poland "Look to what extent there's bad news in this world!" Le virage polonais vers l’Europe et la démocratie/The Polish turn towards Europe and Democracy by Emanuele Del Rosso from Italy 
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Oct 21, 2023 18:50
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World Famous W posted:every cartoon in this thread is propaganda for lovely governments for the most part. not all, but most In the face of the usual equivocation, here's an extensive breakdown of how Latuff as a purveyor of state disinformation is different from "propaganda" as all persuasive communication, and how the use of obscuring source mediation is part of that deceptive process. There are charts and an old familiar friend.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:03
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edit: less flippant, ive seen your/that thread before
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Oct 21, 2023 19:06
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World Famous W posted:every cartoon in this thread is propaganda for lovely governments for the most part. not all, but most There are different levels of washing propaganda and trying to lump them all into one group is exactly what people selling you authoritarian propaganda want you to be doing.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:21
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To be fair, Kelly never has any propaganda (*latest fad), unlike that hack Ward Sutton.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:28
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Kelly is the last honest cartoonist.
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Oct 21, 2023 19:43
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kelly is boomer propaganda written under a pseudonym and we should burn sutton at the stake for his crimes
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Oct 21, 2023 19:53
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I don't want to be dismissive because you've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into it, but I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue. Mostly because I'm a lazy idiot, but I'm OK with leaving it at that if you are 
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Oct 21, 2023 20:16
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't want to be dismissive because you've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into it, but I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue. Mostly because I'm a lazy idiot, but I'm OK with leaving it at that if you are My goal here is not bludgeon you (or anyone) into accepting my point of view, but just to make sure that the information that I have, or can locate, is available. If you consume all that information and come to a different conclusion, well, there's not a great deal I can do about that. (I am curious why, but it sounds like you're not up to getting into that, and that's fine.) I mean, I will continue to believe that you're wrong, but that's life, right?
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Oct 21, 2023 20:25
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You're taking the position that your beliefs are immune to information, in the pursuit of defending authoritarian propaganda.
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Oct 21, 2023 21:37
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idonotlikepeas posted:Here's him drawing a false equivalence while simultaneously poo-pooing the concept of Russian propaganda (probably because he works for MintPress, an outfit that is part of the Russian propaganda infrastructure and which, incidentally, views the current Ukrainian government as illegitimate): Thank you for the informative analysis of Latuff's cartoons. I did not know Latuff was on Russia's propaganda payroll, same as Ted Rall. That explains a lot.
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Oct 21, 2023 23:58
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Victar posted:Thank you for the informative analysis of Latuff's cartoons. I did not know Latuff was on Russia's propaganda payroll, same as Ted Rall. That explains a lot. I should say that MintPress isn't necessarily a Russian propaganda op. They're just an American paper that happens to take Russia's side on every issue, refuses to disclose the identities of its funders, reposts content from RT (the official Russian media that employs Rall), and is directly affiliated with PeaceData (another official Russian propaganda distributer). Who can really say what the truth is? Of course, he also did cartoons for Redfish (which, as Discendo Vox pointed out, was definitely Russian-funded) and Global Times, which is an official Chinese propaganda outlet.
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Oct 22, 2023 00:31
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't want to be dismissive because you've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into it, but I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue. Mostly because I'm a lazy idiot, but I'm OK with leaving it at that if you are Ah, the old "You can't refute me, because I won't read!" counter.
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Oct 22, 2023 00:35
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e: in retrospect this is better left to PMs. sorry for derailing the thread everyone
Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 01:23
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Thank you for that breakdown on Latuff, I always thought his works were pretty hollow, but he was better at hiding that he was a straight up Putin propagandist than stuff like the China Daily or Dry Bones.
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Oct 22, 2023 01:27
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Clay Bennett Jeff Danziger  Kevin "KAL" Kallaugher  Lee Judge  Mike Smith  Jimmy Margulies  David M. Hitch  Mike Peters  Randall Enos - Happy Days are Here Again  Dave Whamond  David Horsey 
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Oct 22, 2023 02:07
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Double posts are rude, but not as rude as  I guess this answers our question about who this guy was last Sunday, even though Tatsuya is drawing his jaw completely differently here.  "Our troops definitely shouldn't be attacking these people but also they should be more violent about it when they do attack them in an unjustified way instead of being giant sissies."  And here we're definitively answering the question of who the bad guys are supposed to be for ole' Tatsy. The Israelis are more LGBTQ-positive than every other country in the region, and therefore evil. This is definitely... an argument, of sorts?  Definitely going off the rails here. We're not anywhere close to a draft, or even landing troops in Israel or Palestine or... anywhere, really. Is there anyone in the administration being nicer to MAGA people? If so, can we identify them and give them giant wedgies?  I always love it when cartoonists do that. "Wouldn't it be terrible if the president did this? What a terrible president, doing this awful thing I just completely made up!"  Yep, porn's still bad and also a tool of THE MAN to control you.  So, let's recap. Putin is an imaginary enemy like Saddam, and so is Hamas - and poor spunky little Russia is just being hate-crimed like the Palestinians are? Why do you persist in using the NPC meme? Why are you making GBS threads up a point about the U.S. engaging in unnecessary wars by sticking this stupid garbage into it and then applying the results to two situations in which we are not at war? There is definitely a way to link these things together via the MIC, but just splattering all the images on the page is not really managing it. If I could suggest something to Ishida about how to best help the Palestinians here, it would probably be stop trying to help them. Just send some money to an aid organization. Pettyfest  
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Oct 22, 2023 17:26
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Observer:  "The elephants in the room with Rishi Sunak – Reasons for the Mid-Bedfordshire and Tamworth byelection losses seem to be a mystery to the prime minister" Sunday Telegraph:  Sycamore Gap tree trunk being cut up and moved from Hadrian’s Wall Sunday Times:  gently caress Off Mac: 
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Oct 22, 2023 17:28
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