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I don't think there's any aspect of this conflict that can be linked to the debunked concept of race essentialism. e: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1716540183297032353 Iran is being accused of aiding the attacks on military installations in Iraq. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 21:04
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What a loving disaster. These hostages are almost certainly going to die in captivity. There is no way Israel is going to let them have fuel. They’ve already stated this. Releasing the hostages sure would do a lot to sway the public opinion here, but I get it’s all the “”leverage”” they have (yuck). I do wonder if the other 150 hostages are already dead, tortured, raped, and killed by Israeli bombs… what a disgusting travesty. Each side sure loves to pile up the crimes against humanity. Anyone who chooses a side in this conflict is a psychopath. I don’t see a solution and I’m terrified for what’s to come. It’s only going to get worse. B
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Oct 23, 2023 21:06
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Shageletic posted:Controlling your own borders is a pretty important feature of governance. You brought up the Egyptians controlling their side of the border before 2005, which made me look up to see if that was true. Which it seemingly isn't. Palestinians have never had the "chance" to control their own borders. The blockade in Gaza only changed in location and a level of severity in 2005. So I'm still wondering how the Palestinians had the chance to show the world how they could govern before that. Not necessarily. The Good Friday Agreement very deliberately fudged that issue in order to settle Northern Ireland. The Palestinians should be able to wear Israel paying for and delivering their border security if they insist. Security is not something Israel will ever give up on, so concessions on security are the things Palestine should be making in abundance in exchange for something elsewhere.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:10
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Shageletic posted:Controlling your own borders is a pretty important feature of governance. You brought up the Egyptians controlling their side of the border before 2005, which made me look up to see if that was true. Which it seemingly isn't. Palestinians have never had the "chance" to control their own borders. The blockade in Gaza only changed in location and a level of severity in 2005. So I'm still wondering how the Palestinians had the chance to show the world how they could govern before that. Palestine started issuing their first passports in 1995. The water rights was a specific agreement in the 1995 agreement, so Isreal controlling that was specifically signed away by the PLO and isn't Israel arbitrarily forcing it on Palestine (which I'd argue is far more of a wrong basic fact than a inconsequential to my argument fact, not to mention by your own post Egypt did control the border prior to 2005, 2004 is prior to 2005). Basic Law was written in 1997.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:10
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Israel hosted an event for 200 foreign press to show some of the gruesome footage of the slaughter from Hamas' bodycams. I have 0 interest seeing any of this atrocious poo poo, but it's important that it gets released as some people are saying this is some stupid conspiracy theory that never happened (history really does repeat). https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-shows-foreign-press-raw-hamas-bodycam-videos-of-murder-torture-decapitation/
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Oct 23, 2023 21:11
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Shageletic posted:Controlling your own borders is a pretty important feature of governance. You brought up the Egyptians controlling their side of the border before 2005, which made me look up to see if that was true. Which it seemingly isn't. Palestinians have never had the "chance" to control their own borders. The blockade in Gaza only changed in location and a level of severity in 2005. So I'm still wondering how the Palestinians had the chance to show the world how they could govern before that. Yes, I quite agree. And an incomplete allowance of civil and human rights is not enough to say that the oppression was stopped. People are still going to resist, including via violent means, less oppression as opposed to more. There are no preconditions for basic human and civil rights -- these rights are unalienable. And I mean, if you're going to talk about 1995-2005, why not bring up the time Israel was like "oh that airport? gently caress that airport!" in 2001. "gently caress your ability to get in and out of your country without the largesse of Israel or Egypt." I guess it was better than post-2005, but if people were still fairly fuckin' upset about the lack of freedom they were offered during that period, I could well understand it.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:15
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nessin posted:Palestine started issuing their first passports in 1995. The water rights was a specific agreement in the 1995 agreement, so Isreal controlling that was specifically signed away by the PLO and isn't Israel arbitrarily forcing it on Palestine (which I'd argue is far more of a wrong basic fact than a inconsequential to my argument fact, not to mention by your own post Egypt did control the border prior to 2005, 2004 is prior to 2005). Basic Law was written in 1997. Palestine started issuing passports in 1995. But who got to enter Gaza (along with what, and taxes/fees was paid on them, was never an entirely Palestinian choice). Regarding water rights, please refer to my effort post regarding through a mix of strategies, including one sided draining of shared reservoirs and the outright banning of well digging in Gaza, Israel always maintain control over water supplies. Shageletic posted:There was a pretty great article by a poster here focusing on water in the Gaza strip (97% of which is unfit for human consumption). I believe the poster stated that Israel actually limited the amount of deep water wells that Palestine is able to dig. This made me start to look into the issue. And Egypt did not control their side of the Egyptian Israeli border until the mid 2000s. quote:Under the Philadelphi Accord, Egypt was authorized to deploy border guards along the Philadelphi route to patrol the border on Egypt's side.[4] Part of the agreement was a continuous coordination between Israel and Egypt regarding operations and intelligence.[5] Alchenar posted:Not necessarily. The Good Friday Agreement very deliberately fudged that issue in order to settle Northern Ireland. What would Palestine get in that exchange, then the slow (and now very fast) dismantling of their territory, the constant oppression of an invasive and foreign state, and a government that even discriminates against Palestinian Israelies?
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Oct 23, 2023 21:19
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What is the background on these? https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/missed-opportunity-olmert-abbas-and-media-bias  https://www.jns.org/erekat-olmert-offered-abbas-more-than-the-entire-west-bank/ I'm not saying they're correct, but the "israel offered perfectly good solutions but palestinians reject it unreasonably" comes up pretty often and I don't know enough to talk about it.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:23
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Mister Fister posted:Israel hosted an event for 200 foreign press to show some of the gruesome footage of the slaughter from Hamas' bodycams. I have 0 interest seeing any of this atrocious poo poo, but it's important that it gets released as some people are saying this is some stupid conspiracy theory that never happened (history really does repeat). I'll be honest, I would not attend the IDF Halloween party. Mostly because even if they have actual proof, it's still going to presented both for the most shock value, and will probably have been tampered with based on IDF form and habit. Also because no amount of free candy would be enough to take the psychic damage of watching those sorts of videos just to be a tool of the Apartheid state's propaganda push. If the IDF want to hand off the bodycams to truly independent forensics labs to analyse, review, and brief on, then that would be of value.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:27
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Yeah it really seems like Abbas made a huge mistake when he turned down that offer.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:28
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mitztronic posted:I do wonder if the other 150 hostages are already dead, tortured, raped, and killed by Israeli bombs… what a disgusting travesty. For what it's worth, I feel like trying to escort out two Israeli grandmothers so they can get their medication seems out of sync with Hamas being a genocidal terror group that wants to brutally abuse Jews. This will sound morbid but speaking from a theoretical Hamas view: they have exchanged corpses before. Obviously, individual groups could do awful things as on Oct 7, but as far as top decisions go Hamas, at the very least and in the most cynical interpretation, understands that it's more helpful to their cause & more embarassing to Israel to generally treat the people that will eventually be freed decently; when Gilad Shalit was taken captive, the soldiers who managed to abduct him were initially violent & hit him, but when the situation stabilized under higher authorities he was ferried through Gaza, ate hummus on rooftops with Palestinian families, listened to soccer matches with Hamas soldiers, and played table games with them. He was also fairly gaunt by the time he was released, but it's worth noting that the total goods blockade of Gaza had started a year prior, calories were doled out in insufficient amounts for Gaza's people, and Hamas had yet to dig the extensive smuggling tunnel system that keeps Gaza alive during sieges. I've no clue if he was more malnourished than the typical Gazan from 2006-2011. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 21:30
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DelilahFlowers posted:they are descendents of the same loving people, and that they shouldnt be loving killing each other because they are killing their own family. I feel bad replying to you because you're probated and can't respond (fake edit: after reading the post that got you probed, I no longer feel bad), but this is the racist part. You are implying that it would be somehow more acceptable if they teamed up to kill people from some other race. To address the strawmanning rule, I know you didn't outright say that, but it necessarily follows from your words. I cannot fathom another way to interpret them. It is, by definition, a racist argument because it's using race as the reason that something should or should not be done. Nobody should be killing anybody. But they do, and saying that sharing a race means is a reason not to is explicitly and by definition racist.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:30
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HonorableTB posted:Yeah it really seems like Abbas made a huge mistake when he turned down that offer. Do you think that the Israeli state would have stuck to it? Look at what has happened in the time since and imagine if that would have been adhered to in any way shape or form.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:30
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Jaxyon posted:What is the background on these? According to Abbas he wasn't given a chance to review the map and then the negotiations broke down due to Olmert's legal issues. "Abbas said he supported the idea of territorial swaps, but that Olmert pressed him into agreeing to the plan without allowing him to study the proposed map. “He showed me a map. He didn’t give me a map,” Abbas said. “He told me, ‘This is the map’ and took it away. I respected his point of view, but how can I sign on something that I didn’t receive?” Olmert confirmed that he pressed Abbas to initial the offer that day."
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Oct 23, 2023 21:33
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Josef bugman posted:Do you think that the Israeli state would have stuck to it? Look at what has happened in the time since and imagine if that would have been adhered to in any way shape or form.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:36
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CSM posted:So Palestinians shouldn't agree to anything ever an Israeli government offers them? This is just an argument to continue the oppression forever. A series of bantustans wasn't going to create peace regardless
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Oct 23, 2023 21:36
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Jaxyon posted:What is the background on these? Olmert was under investigation for corruption and announced that he would resign from public office. He was no longer someone that could be negotiated with. He resigned from his position in September 2008.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:39
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 21:39
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Jaxyon posted:What is the background on these? The Israelis decide what constitutes the West Bank. quote:To begin with, the often-repeated line that Barak offered the Palestinians the Gaza Strip and 96% of the West Bank for a state is completely untrue. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of Israel’s definition of the West Bank, meaning they did not include any of the areas already under Israeli control, such as settlements, the Dead Sea, and large parts of the Jordan Valley. This meant that Barak effectively annexed 10% of the West Bank to Israel, with an additional 8-12% remaining under “temporary” Israeli control for a period of time. https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/palestinians-sabotaged-the-peace-process/ Along with a couple other great addendums (from the same source) quote:In addition to all of this, Israel demanded permanent control of Palestinian airspace, three permanent military installations manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank, Israeli presence at Palestinian border crossings, and special “security arrangements” along the borders with Jordan which effectively annexed additional land.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:40
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CSM posted:So Palestinians shouldn't agree to anything ever an Israeli government offers them? This is just an argument to continue the oppression forever. I mean, short of putting in place actual safeguards and guarantees, no not really. If the offers are always going to be rescinded, renegotiated in bad faith etc, then it would need to be enforced separately.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:41
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I'll be honest, I would not attend the IDF Halloween party. Mostly because even if they have actual proof, it's still going to presented both for the most shock value, and will probably have been tampered with based on IDF form and habit. Also because no amount of free candy would be enough to take the psychic damage of watching those sorts of videos just to be a tool of the Apartheid state's propaganda push. A lot of this stuff was stuff that was uploaded to telegram (and later to sites like liveleak) before Israel got their hands on it.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:49
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Josef bugman posted:I mean, short of putting in place actual safeguards and guarantees, no not really. If the offers are always going to be rescinded, renegotiated in bad faith etc, then it would need to be enforced separately. Similar to any deal between Iran and the USA, Palestine should be skeptical of any deal that doesn't feature a country or coalition ready & willing to punish Israel for breaking it, be that Palestine itself or another nation. Otherwise you're offering your long-term fate to the whims of an aggressive and xenophobic voting populace (apply this to both US and Israel). By the way, AJA just (as in 30 minutes ago) posted footage of the hostages that need medical attention. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 21:49
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I hate how believable the evidence presented here is, based on footage shown in the media too, the accounts stated in this article makes sense. And even on October 7th and 8, after news broke of the attack, there was credible evidence right away that Israel may have allowed this to happen.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:50
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The negotiations between Abbas and Olmert broke down because Olmert was a lame-duck prime minister under investigation for corruption. He had no real power or authority to negotiate peace. That is why Abbas walked away. When Tzipi Livni failed to form a government after Olmert's resignation - the resignation in September 2008, the calling of elections in October 2008 - it became immediately obvious that there was no point in continuing negotiations.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:52
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CSM posted:So Palestinians shouldn't agree to anything ever an Israeli government offers them? This is just an argument to continue the oppression forever. If the deal involved demilitarization, a ban on forming alliances and Israel having the right to invade whenever they want, no, I don’t think you can trust Israel to stick to any of it. Because there’s nothing you can do when they don’t.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 21:56
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"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." "We did that?" "Yes it's what they are saying."
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Oct 23, 2023 21:56
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mannerup posted:the problem with this thinking is even if the IDF did that, they would be accused of only sending tampered evidence to the independent investigations therefore making their investigation suspect from the beginning. people who do not want to believe what occurred are not going to be convinced with any burden of evidence I dont think this article is suggesting the massacre was intentional, just that Israel most likely killed some portion of the 1300 or so themselves which is probably true as that is their doctrine regarding hostages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
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Oct 23, 2023 21:57
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Brucolac posted:Not the first time something like this has been suggested by a primary source. The translation (that I think is not especially contested, but a native speaker would have to confirm) posted recently of one of the survivors of the Hamas attack suggested she thought most of the hostage deaths were the result of 'crossfire' when the IDF eventually arrived on the scene. You would think at some point between the Munich incident and today that Israel would have figured out that letting the hostages die wasn't discouraging Palestinian militant groups from taking hostages.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:59
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Alchenar posted:Not necessarily. The Good Friday Agreement very deliberately fudged that issue in order to settle Northern Ireland. That doesn't actually make sense. At first glance, it looks like it does, but it's actually an extremely skewed framing that takes advantage of the Western tendency to prefer to see things from the Israeli point of view. Why? Because it's fundamentally one-sided. It's perfectly reasonable for Israel to be concerned about protecting Israelis from Palestinians...but it's also perfectly reasonable for Palestine to be concerned about protecting Palestinians from Israelis. Yet while Israel gets to demand numerous violations of Palestinian sovereignty in the name of Israeli self-defense, nobody even bothers to ask whether the Palestinians are entitled to concessions from Israel for the sake of Palestinian self-defense. Would it be reasonable for Palestinians to demand to have their own military bases in Israeli territory for early-warning defense purposes? Would anyone take seriously a Palestinian demand for the right to post their own inspectors at all Israeli border crossings? Would anyone think Palestinian negotiators were being serious if they demanded full control over Israeli airspace? If Palestinian negotiators demanded the dissolution of the IDF, the full demilitarization of Israel, and the right to send their own security forces on raids into Israeli territory any time they wanted, would that draw any response besides the negotiators being laughed out of the room? But those are all things that Israel has seriously demanded of Palestinians in various negotiation attempts. The Palestinians believe - and not without good reason - that an end to the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza cannot be accompanied by allowing the Israeli military the right to have an ongoing presence in the West Bank and Gaza. Many of the Israeli "security" demands amount to just maintaining the current status quo under a different name. Jaxyon posted:What is the background on these? See above. Pro-Israeli sources tend to focus exclusively on land percentages while ignoring other parts of the deals, many of which stretch the definition of "independent Palestinian state" to the breaking point. The 2008 negotiations were particularly ridiculous in that regard. Not only did Israel demand pretty much everything I listed in my response to Alchenar above, but leaked meeting notes showed that at one point, frustrated US negotiators seriously suggested relocating Palestinian refugees to South America. Moreover, Ehud Olmert was definitely writing checks he couldn't cash. At the time he made this offer, he had already announced his impending resignation, his governing coalition had collapsed, and the Israeli police had recommended criminal charges against him just a few days prior. In a situation like that, a "take it or leave it, right here right now" deal is an utter joke. There was simply no way he was in any political position to make any real Israeli concessions, and even if he promised them, it was unlikely that the next Prime Minister would have followed whatever desperate promises he made in a final last-ditch attempt to salvage some political relevance. Indeed, Olmert's official resignation happened just one day after he made that final offer to Abbas. And in the election that followed, Likud gained 15 seats, meaning that the next Prime Minister was Benjamin Netanyahu - someone who had notoriously bragged about his efforts to sabotage the Oslo Accords and prevent Israeli concessions to Palestinians from being carried out.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:04
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The way that headline reads it looks like it's about to accuse Israel of false-flagging that attack. That's pretty misleading.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:05
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 22:06
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mitztronic posted:What a loving disaster. These hostages are almost certainly going to die in captivity. While I understand the instinct to throw up your hands and check out, the unfortunate reality is that the massive power imbalance demands anyone interested in a solution to this conflict must pick sides. Israel has managed to grant itself vastly more power and agency than any Palestinian governing entity (and, indeed, has granted itself considerable power and agency over both the Hamas government of Gaza and the Fatah Palestinian Authority), and so it's they who chiefly need the pressure piled on them to make the lion's share of concessions. There's very little that Palestinians can actually do to end all this - even much of the recent, gruesome Hamas violence has many of its roots in the miserable, bloody failure of all more peaceful forms of resistance.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:07
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My personal opinion is that there was likely limited planning from either Israel nor Hamas to mitigate civillian casualties nor cause them; Hamas expected a short incursion but ended up wildly successful as the IDF rot became evident, Israel forces in general seem to have a dim view of any hostage that has interacted with Hamas. I can absolutely believe that as divisions ran wild across Israel, IDF & police forces reverted to their West Bank & Gaza training and blasted away. I can also believe that there were Hamas soldiers who willingly killed civillians. For what it's worth, Haaretz has been tracking the public names of every dead citizen they can gather so far; ostensibly it's to memorialize them, but I think it's clever that they also helpfully divide them into groups: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...af-7b5cf0210000 419 Civillians, 59 Police, 275 Soldiers, 14 Rescue Services, for a total of 767 dead at 43% 'combatant' to 57% 'civillian'. For black comedy's sake, Israel has confirmed 13 Hamas officials dead amongst the 6,000+ lives they've ended, but obviously we don't have numbers on Hamas soldier deaths. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 22:08
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Mister Fister posted:A lot of this stuff was stuff that was uploaded to telegram (and later to sites like liveleak) before Israel got their hands on it. I still wouldn't trust the IDF not to cut in scenes from Predator or Child's Play.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:13
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Neurolimal posted:Similar to any deal between Iran and the USA, Palestine should be skeptical of any deal that doesn't feature a country or coalition ready & willing to punish Israel for breaking it, be that Palestine itself or another nation. Otherwise you're offering your long-term fate to the whims of an aggressive and xenophobic voting populace (apply this to both US and Israel). Along that line there's the simple fact that Israel could have easily breached the terms of the agreement whenever they felt like it and would have had the full backing of the US to do as they pleased.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:28
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Psh, they should've taken the deal. Like when Ukraine handed over their nukes to Russia, and then Russia famously treated them fabulously
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Oct 23, 2023 22:41
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“The missile has dissolved like salt in the water,” said Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official, in a phone interview. “It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.” - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hospital-evidence.html That's not actually a thing that happens.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:45
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It actually is with certain types of weapons.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:48
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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