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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It actually is with certain types of weapons. Which types? If you start talking about cellulose cased bombs Tom Clancy made that up.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:57
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That seems like a translation of an idiom, so maybe don't try to turn it into some ridiculous horseshit. Seems like the reasonable way to read that is "we have been getting hit by airstrikes for weeks, none of us want to or can do forensic analysis in the midst of it so come do it yourself if your journalistic standards demand it"
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Oct 23, 2023 22:57
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:02
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I don't understand how the hospital bombing is still in dispute, between the Israel tweet taking credit for the bombing, and the fake evidence that IDF has presented, it seems pretty clear cut?
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Oct 23, 2023 23:03
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mannerup posted:trying to frame it as something lost in translation is stretching the definition of charitability So does believing israel didn't bomb a place they bombed twice previously and said there gonna bomb, and bombed numerous other warcrime targets while denying and presenting faked evidence.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:03
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NovemberMike posted:Which types? If you start talking about cellulose cased bombs Tom Clancy made that up. Dense inert metal explosives turn their casings into a particulate cloud which compliments the microshrapnel payload. And it's carbon fibre, not cellulose. Israel has and uses them.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:05
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It's worth remembering that they literally hit the hospital three days prior. https://twitter.com/PalestineChron/status/1713616210913275932 And bombing around the hospitals to try to scare them out is literally a tactic they are using at this very moment.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:10
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:14
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The claim that "hamas was responsible for the hospital strike" also implies that the Palestinian resistance has sophisticated shipping and infrastructure network operations that they use to acquire advanced weaponry but somehow not the guidance equipment for said advanced military technology.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:14
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BUUNNI posted:The claim that "hamas was responsible for the hospital strike" also implies that the Palestinian resistance has sophisticated shipping and infrastructure network operations that they use to acquire advanced weaponry but somehow not the guidance equipment for said advanced military technology. Has anyone, including the IDF, suggested Hamas did it? I thought it was either IDF or the Jihad group?
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Oct 23, 2023 23:26
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Has anyone, including the IDF, suggested Hamas did it? I thought it was either IDF or the Jihad group? Who are even smaller and more poorly-resourced than Hamas, it should be noted, and not on good enough terms with the rulers of the Strip that Hamas makes too much of a habit of covering for them when they screw up.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:34
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BUUNNI posted:The claim that "hamas was responsible for the hospital strike" also implies that the Palestinian resistance has sophisticated shipping and infrastructure network operations that they use to acquire advanced weaponry but somehow not the guidance equipment for said advanced military technology. Explain. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Dense inert metal explosives turn their casings into a particulate cloud which compliments the microshrapnel payload. And it's carbon fibre, not cellulose. Even assuming a GBU-39 with a DIMES warhead (something specifically designed not to kill too many people) would still have a number of components that create traditional shrapnel and leave evidence. The GPS, aerodynamic systems and fuse are all shared, the FLM warhead is just one part of the bomb. It's designed to limit collateral damage, not for deniability. The lack of evidence isn't a slam dunk. It's entirely possible that rescue got rid of the evidence while recovering bodies and tending to the wounded. It's still obvious they're hiding something.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:35
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NovemberMike posted:Explain. What's likelier- A. a poverty-stricken and ragtag group of islamic resistance fighters have a sophisticated black market operations that allows them to smuggle advanced missile weapon systems through a highly-militarized border region but somehow NOT their guidance systems, or B. a well-funded and well-equipped military occupation forced tasked primarily with enforcing rigid apartheid and occasionally bombing densely packed civilian locations bombed one more non-military target? BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:45
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NovemberMike posted:It's still obvious they're hiding something. is it?
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Oct 23, 2023 23:46
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beer_war posted:They are talking about a missile that is "too far away to be related to the hospital explosion", but was visible on Al Jazeera footage. The post I quoted suggest a "less than one percent chance...". The conclusions in the thread suggest a couple of possibilities. It may suggest the most plausible at the moment is a rocket but I think when accounting for Israel's deliberate and repeated warnings and bombings of hospitals, we should wait for international war crimes investigators to get involved. nessin posted:Because 1995 was the turnover from Gaza-Jericho and Oslo II, so Gaza had some self-determination and was making their own government decisions and laws. Specific to your comment here, 1995 is the point when "any decisions typically handled by a government handled by an occupying force that controlled their borders" was no longer an accurate statement thanks to Gaza-Jericho. In addition Egypt, who to remind you controls one of those borders, relations were still good as far as I'm aware and Israel wasn't enforcing a strict blockade like they were prior to that or after the 2005 election. Likud's 1996 party platform essentially stated before it was elected: "There will be no Palestinian state west of the Jordan". edit: Realised my link was wrong. Took me ages to find the reference, though I remember it clearly from way back when. Had to use the wayback machine for it (https://web.archive.org/web/20080514234456/http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/likud.html). Specific quote from the 1996 Likud Platform: "The government will oppose the establishment of an independent Palestinian state[...] The Jordan River shall be the eastern border of the State of Israel, south of Lake Kinneret. This will be the permanent border between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan." In 2000, Barak entered negotiations late in his election life and was nearly out of political capital. There's no way an agreement could have been concluded in time. There's no way if an agreement *was* concluded that Ariel Sharon - the war criminal who would put Hamas to shame - would have indulged it mere days later. After Sharon came into power, there was zero chance the war criminal aggressively settling the West Bank and committing more horrors through 2005 would have done anything for Palestinian autonomy. The IDF in 2001/2002 were taking shits in photocopy machines at the Palestinian Ministry of Culture for Christ's sake, while levelling Ramullah. Amira Haas posted:In other offices, all the high-tech and electronic equipment had been wrecked or had vanished — computers, photocopiers, cameras, scanners, hard disks, editing equipment worth thousands of dollars, television sets. The broadcast antenna on top of the building was destroyed. This was from an article I remember reading when it was first published, it made that much of a mark on me. https://www.haaretz.com/2002-05-06/ty-article/someone-even-managed-to-defecate-into-the-photocopier/0000017f-dbc8-db22-a17f-fff91c380000 If you want to know more about Barak's negotiations, there are two must-watch clips. The first is Zbigniew Brzezinski embarrassing Joe Scarborough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mk18af8z9Y Brzezinski posted:There were all sorts of provisions and catches to the so-called 'proposal'. And it wasn't rejected. The negotiations went on in Taba. And then were elections in Israel and then Sharon came in and everything got aborted[...] [Arafat] did not walk away, what he said was "I'm going to take the proposal to all the Arab capitals and see how they react" because the proposals were controversial[...]" The second clip is Shlomo Ben-Ami with Norman Finkelstein on Democracy Now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cYaCWfWNY Shlomo Ben-Ami posted:With regard to Taba: we were a government committing suicide. Practically. Two weeks before general elections. The Chief of Staff[...] comes and[...] in something tantamount to a coup de d'etat, comes and says publicly 'we are putting at risk the future of the state of Israel by accepting the Clinton parameters[...]' [...] In Taba, Prime Minister Barak instructs me to conduct secret negotiations with Abu Ala. Within the negotiations we had a second track trying to reach an agreement. And he even agrees to all sorts of things he wasn't very open to before that. Now, this was the end. We saw we were not reaching an agreement. We need to go back even for the electoral campaign[...] our legitimacy as a government to negotiate [such central issues] was being questioned by [everyone]. It was unsustainable.' All four parts are worth watching but. But in the clip above (starts about 20 secs in), Ben-Ami states that he believes that Taba should have simply been agreed to and Israel made concessions etc but what's important here is that he acknlowedges how little capital and legitimacy Israel had in 2000 when negotiating just before an election. Taba was barely an aborted foetus. It could have never been more with Sharon coming in. The tragedy of 1995 to 2005 is it went exactly as Edward Said had predicted way back when he was critiquing *Madrid*. Arafat gave up the most important bargaining chips to get the Palestinian Authority and an agreement to make an agreement. Oslo is still Israel's biggest coup of the last half century. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:47
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BUUNNI posted:What's likelier- Probably A since we see them posting propaganda videos about them? Maybe PIJ is just CGI-ing them in?
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Oct 23, 2023 23:54
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I need help with this one. Going back 53 years to 1970, is this this farthest we have ever been from settling the Israel / Palestine conflict?
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Oct 23, 2023 23:56
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Yeah PIJ gets direct assistance from Iran and has been known to use rockets as big as the Badr-3, which has a 300kg+ warhead (comparable to a small JDAM). Although given the low amount of blast damage seen in the aftermath photos it probably wasn't anything remotely that large.
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:58
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mannerup posted:nah, ill stick with calling it ridiculous horseshit that you have one person claiming that the evidence completely vaporized while another person says "you can come and research and confirm for yourself from the evidence we possess", they do not want an independent investigation The article says that reporters did go to the site to try to confirm for themselves, and all the evidence was gone, and when they asked Hamas if they could see the evidence (or even see photos of the evidence), Hamas refused. That said, the fact that this is still in focus suggests that the Israeli effort to distract from the larger bombing campaign has been extremely successful. The headline for that article was "Hamas Fails to Make Case That Israel Struck Hospital". Israel has dropped thousands of bombs on Gaza in the last couple of weeks, killing thousands of people, but suddenly the onus is on Hamas to prove that any particular strike came from Israel? Meanwhile, inconsistencies in Israel's side of the story and Israeli refusals to provide or elaborate on given pieces of evidence are buried halfway down the page. The very bottom of the article puts it well, and is far more important than endlessly picking over tiny details trying to form an argument for who did what. quote:For Palestinians, the debate over who is responsible for the hospital blast obscures a broader context in which Israeli strikes have devastated whole neighborhoods, displaced hundreds of thousands of Gazans and killed thousands of others.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:01
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NovemberMike posted:Probably A since we see them posting propaganda videos about them? Maybe PIJ is just CGI-ing them in? If propaganda videos you saw on the internet are how you arrived at your position then there is no evidence I can provide that will change your point of view 
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Oct 24, 2023 00:02
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah PIJ gets direct assistance from Iran and has been known to use rockets as big as the Badr-3, which has a 300kg+ warhead (comparable to a small JDAM). Although given the low amount of blast damage it probably wasn't anything remotely that large. I've been looking at photos and it just seems like a Qassam rocket. This is a crater from a rocket that hit Sderot.  This is the crater from the hospital.  They look close enough that I can believe it's not even a Badr3 or any of the bigger rockets. BUUNNI posted:If propaganda videos you saw on the internet are how you arrived at your position then there is no evidence I can provide that will change your point of view You do understand that these are PIJ propaganda videos? They just show themselves setting up the launch sites for the big rockets with some Arab music in the background?
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Oct 24, 2023 00:05
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Israel has murdered thousands of Palestinians in a couple of weeks but some dudes gotta go to the mat over one particular war crime where Israel has blatantly lied and also refuses independent investigations.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:07
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NovemberMike posted:You do understand that these are PIJ propaganda videos? They just show themselves setting up the launch sites for the big rockets with some Arab music in the background? Not sure how or why the existence of these alleged propaganda videos produced in Palestine somehow negate the fact that one of these military groups has well-equipped army that features an airforce with modern jet fighters and an assortment of droppable ordinance funded entirely by wealthy western nations and the other military group has mostly slingshots and unguided rockets propelled with sugar and fertilizer. Also the group that gets free western military technology every year has time and time again destroyed non-military targets in retribution. Lord Lambeth posted:I sincerely doubt that Bibi will survive this politically. I truly and sincerely hope this is the case but after seeing what happened in the US after 9/11 I have a bad feeling about what Bibi will do when he has his back against a wall. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 00:12
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BUUNNI posted:The entirety of the western world is backing Bibi and Likud, nonetheless. It seems likely they will be able to escape from this disaster of their own doing in much better shape than before. These attacks also give Bibi and Likud a green light to be even more savage towards any israelis who dissent. And this is good because the IDF and Israeli police can use their shiny new equipment on dissenters AND Palestinians! I sincerely doubt that Bibi will survive this politically. Survivors from this attack are furious, blaming the government for the massacre. Previous prime ministers are blaming him for this massacre. Netanyahu’s political brand was burnished with his claims about security and the biggest security failure in Israel’s history happened while he was prime minister. The only thing left of his career is a clear record of him being a corrupt, slippery worm. Likud could survive, but the polling for the party doesn’t look good either.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:12
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NovemberMike posted:I've been looking at photos and it just seems like a Qassam rocket. Why doesn't the surrounding area in the first photo have any damage equivalent to the cars in the second?
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Oct 24, 2023 00:15
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BUUNNI posted:Not sure how or why the existence of these alleged propaganda videos produced in Palestine somehow negate the fact that one of these military groups has a highly-advanced military that features an airforce with modern jet fighters and an assortment of droppable ordinance funded entirely by wealthy western nations and the other military group has mostly slingshots and unguided rockets propelled with sugar and fertilizer. I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the complete thought here. Israel has airplanes and that means what exactly? Gumball Gumption posted:Why doesn't the surrounding area in the first photo have any damage equivalent to the cars in the second? My guess would be the lack of secondary explosion?
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Oct 24, 2023 00:15
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NovemberMike posted:I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the complete thought here. Israel has airplanes and that means what exactly? Apologies for not alluding more clearly. Allow me to simplify the dilemma- which one of the two militant groups, the Palestinian resistance or IDF, has the capacity to inflict the highest number of civilian casualties in the shortest amount of time?
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Oct 24, 2023 00:25
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BUUNNI posted:Apologies for not alluding more clearly. Allow me to simplify the dilemma- which one of the two militant groups, the Palestinian resistance or IDF, has the capacity to inflict the highest number of civilian casualties in the shortest amount of time? Keep going. Are you trying to imply that Palestine was incapable of this? Are you just asking questions? I'm not going to go through the Socratic method in a rate limited thread.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:30
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 00:36
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The difference between this and other moments in Netanyahu’s career is that nothing like this has happened before in Israel’s history. This kind of event strikes right to the core of why Israel was founded in the first place.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:54
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NovemberMike posted:something specifically designed not to kill too many people Not kill "too many people"
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Oct 24, 2023 00:54
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 01:00
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The Sean posted:Not kill "too many people" They're specifically designed to limit the blast radius. Shrapnel doesn't go more than 2-5m. I'm also not sure Israel even has them, accusations start before the US even had them.
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Oct 24, 2023 01:04
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I don't see Bibi being able to escape this, even being Bibi. To summarize: Israel's premise is of a high-tech security ethnostate that can subjugate everyone around them to secure Jewish safety & primacy. That's completely faltered as a result of one of the poorest armies in the world successfully breaching their super-wall and escaping the bantustan. So: - To recover the guise they need to prove that they can completely eliminate what just shattered that. - That requires eradicating Hamas. - But Hamas has the support of the people, so you can't easily flush them out. - So you need to get rid of the people. - But Egypt isn't willing to help cooperate on ethnically cleansing them. - So you need to get rid of the people. - But nearly every nation in the region, including one capable of gumming up NATO, is now denouncing or threatening Israel after having murdered 6,000, let alone 2 million. Let alone half that. - And Hamas probably has stockpiled food specifically for this, and will outlast the worst of it. - Maybe just turn North Gaza into an empty buffer? """Minimal""" civilian casualties, you get an accomplishment to tout? - You shuttered that by rage-bombing the entirety of Gaza. In fact you're still rage-bombing South Gaza. As a result the civillians aren't leaving. - So you need to invade. - But this will result in a shitload of dead Israelis, which was the ignition point in the first place. - And a country that has at-worst stalemated Israel several times is prepping to attack a heavily compromised northern front the moment Israel attacks Gaza - And if the other states that at-best tolerate Israel (and that was before this madman campaign against human life) smells weakness, they might contribute for an easy domestic win. - So America needs to cover for you. - Problem is the US is terrified of an Iran war, so won't be able to cut off the several guerilla armies they fund, and they effectively share ordinance with you, and they don't want to be seen bombing Gaza themselves. - So America is going to demand you have a better plan. - But you don't have one. And while all this is going on, more Israeli hostages are going to die, be it bombs or starvation, and Hamas is savvy enough to flex that fact. Just look at the two Israeli grannies; they need help due to the dire medical situation in Gaza, it looks awful for Israel to reject them, it looks good for Hamas to hand them over, so they do so without any prerequisites. There isn't a real "out" here, everything is going to make people hate Bibi more. He had a similar issue with the last military adventure (wherein they couldn't stop the rocket attacks, and his support was hemmorhaging as there seemed to be no real accomplishment to tout), but on an existential level. I can only see this ending in Netanyahu being immolated on the pyre of Security; 'Israel is an incredibly powerful state that can't be threatened by its subjects, Netanyahu was just an incredibly bad fluke who ruined things. Everything's fine now.' Netanyahu is trying to scapegoating the IDF/Mossad/Shin Bet so they can perform the role of a worthy sacrifice, but most of them've headed that off themselves by taking (a small amount, thanks to getting ahead of this) blame. And I assume Israelis like the IDF more than they like Netanyahu. The question comes to just how much damage can Netanyahu do before this inevitability; worth following the "should Netanyahu resign during the war?" polls. It's fairly poetic that the organization Netanyahu propped up to make Palestinian resistance internationally unpopular, is now the organization that ends his career. Might even end up putting him in prison, ____ willing. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 01:43
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Lord Lambeth posted:This kind of event strikes right to the core of why Israel was founded in the first place. Too bad they took policies that led right up to such an event occurring.
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Oct 24, 2023 01:50
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There’s no civilian population to hide in. No jungle to hide in. And no adjacent warring army. A fixed, small footprint to occupy. It keeps being said that ground invasion is inevitable failure , but realistically in this specific situation all they have to do is trace the tunnels and methodically plug up all the vents then switch to gas, irony notwithstanding. They don’t have a front to result and re dig from. Their invaders know the locals inside and out. Sure there will be clashes up front, but once Hamas retreats it’s over. That’s why making all civilians get the hell out so critical to the strategy, including hospitals. Don’t see internal revolt when Israelis, as much as they may not be comfortable with the task, do see an end to the daily shelling they’ve endured with this approach and will be willing to see it through.
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Oct 24, 2023 01:53
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:There’s no civilian population to hide in. No jungle to hide in. And no adjacent warring army. A fixed, small footprint to occupy. It keeps being said that ground invasion is inevitable failure , but realistically in this specific situation all they have to do is trace the tunnels and methodically plug up all the vents then switch to gas, irony notwithstanding..
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Oct 24, 2023 01:59
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I dont think flooding the tunnel system is a serious answer; not only do you need to plug all exits, those exits are going to be in Gaza so you need to go in anyways, and the amount of [water/cyanide/confetti] you'd need would be unimaginably massive. Flooding Azovastal when Azov decided to make their last stand was floated around as an idea online, but it was always a goofy theoretical, and at least in that case Russia was very literally surrounding all exits.
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Oct 24, 2023 02:01
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Uh I personally would have stopped myself from posting gassing as a way to end the conflict.
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Oct 24, 2023 02:04
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Apart from all that, what the hell does 'there's no civilian population to hide in' mean?
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Oct 24, 2023 02:08
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