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In this case it also seems pretty dependent on hardware combinations so a small studio might not catch all the variations that perform particularly poorly.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:32
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There's no point in optimizing performance before it's feature complete because your new features could mess with the performance. So optimization is generally the last thing done on any game. There are also only so many systems it can be tested on--console testing is easy since every PS5 is the same hardware, but PCs vary widely and you're always going to end up with hardware combinations that poo poo themselves for reasons you couldn't have known about because you can't test everything. They likely found a lot of stuff by having so many people on the beta. Games also often get video drivers tailored to them as well which can affect a lot. Baldur's Gate 3 ran like rear end in Act 3 for me until I got the BG3 drivers from nVidia, and it was like a 500% FPS boost from that. I'm not a programmer so I don't know what is involved with performance optimization, but I am quite sure it's more than "flip a few switches".
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Oct 23, 2023 21:34
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Jewmanji posted:I was being a bit reductive, but I just meant that if there’s some toggles already built into the options that seem to ameliorate things quite a bit, it just seems slightly weird to me. Like I said, game development may as well be rocket science to me. CO made the simulation aspect of the game but not the entire engine and the one that they're using is unity. all or almost all of the code that CO is using to render the game is probably just straight out of the engine. it's also designed to support a billion different kinds of games so those options players can use to turn down/off features and improve performance are probably just intrinsically present.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:44
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Also, like with the CS:1 example mentioned above, sometimes simple things can just slip by attention. If you know perf is gonna be a significant problem because your expected "standard user" just put together a $1,500 computer in 2028, and you're crunching night and day trying to figure out close-enough facsimiles of really complex logic to hold things together until then, you might write the chugging off as expected and never look back and realize that "draw gif on sign" is loading 1,000 copies of the same gif when you have 1,000 signs in view. As an anecdote, FF14 was a significantly bigger AAA project likewise aimed at future computers and still being visually competitive years later, it likewise performed like a dog at launch, and eventually it turned out that (among many, many other issues) every barrel or bottle or potted plant or mug was as detailed as a player character. Walk into a cozy bar or down a landscaped boulevard, and yikes, it was like the entire server population was logged in standing there.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:51
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Grand Fromage posted:There's no point in optimizing performance before it's feature complete because your new features could mess with the performance. This is how you end up with unrecoverable performance issues late in development. You build for optimization from day one. That doesn’t mean you don’t do passes once you’re feature complete, though.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:34
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Yeah that's the Star Citizen development methodology and you don't want to do that lol
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Oct 23, 2023 22:39
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Like I said, not a programmer. Just what I gathered from people who are.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:41
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Optimization can mean a lot of different things but generally you want to get your infrastructure sound and yeah maybe you can push off handling all the corner cases towards the end of development.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:44
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I feel like a city building thread should understand the issue with "we'll solve the performance problems at the end" as an approach.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:58
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And then there was the below rumor. I recall some C:S1 stock assets having very stupid main or LOD tri counts and/or inane texture sizes. I can see AI-generated stuff being thrown in the pipeline during crunch time, being forgotten about until passing the release candidate on to middling publisher QA where it's not picked up on either, until finally some potato-wielding YT stars are looped in during the final weeks before release, whereupon everything comes to a screeching halt. These kinds of things fall through the cracks if you're not very process-driven I guess. Disclaimer: I created a handful of decently optimized buildings myself, but those took dozens of hours each to create, which I'd scold devs for myself these days. 
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Oct 23, 2023 23:07
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Game requires 12 GB of VRAM to render thousands of lovingly detailed citizen scrotums.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:14
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The teeth thing would only be a problem if there weren't different level of detail models for the cims. The model you see at 2 inches away from the camera shouldn't be the exact same model you see from a mile away. I've definitely seen devs gently caress that up though. DCS had an issue earlier this year where they added some WW2 planes, but never set up the level of detail stuff correctly, so half the triangles it would be rendering at any time were on an inactive old prop plane halfway across the map. Bedurndurn fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:18
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Hence people complaining a lot when moving the camera towards ground level and suddenly hitting really bad stutters. Which is not necessarily a deliberate thing but might be induced by people fighting unfamiliar camera controls/zoom to mouse. Also I'm not sure where C:S2 comes, in but 1 only had the main mesh and then a single LOD one which you'd better optimize to the hilt for often-used assets. Depending on the LOD distance default for a particular asset class/size you might run into trouble real quick before a proper QA pass.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:21
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From what I've gathered here's the tech advice everyone should do right away: A) Turn off VSync. B) Turn off dynamic resolution. Having it on does give you a few more FPS but it makes the game look like fried rear end and isn't worth it. C) Turn LOD to low. D) Turn volumetrics low or off. E) Turn off fog, which just makes everything look muddy anyway. F) Turn off depth of field. Play with it from there. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:27
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Jewmanji posted:I don’t know one single thing about game development- how is it that the game had a seemingly unknown performance issue (unknown to the devs that is) this close to the release, and further, how is it possible that the solution was just to flip a few switches? From the way things have progressed I think the most likely scenario is that they were just working to a hard deadline, crunching, the final optimisation passes and settings analyses were the last things on the development timeline, and they just... didn't make it. Because performance isn't explicitly gamebreaking on PC (it is on console because MS and Sony require a certain reliable FPS rate) the publisher higher ups wouldn't let them delay PC release to finish it and then this happens. Tale as old as time. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 23:49
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Grand Fromage posted:B) Turn off dynamic resolution. Having it on does give you a few more FPS but it makes the game look like fried rear end and isn't worth it. I sincerely hope DLSS and FSR 2 support is in the works.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:49
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I'm going to pick it up and if it runs like a dog, just get Steam to refund it. I think it's likely to be borderline and I'm gonna need that experience of how bad it chugs vs how dogshit lower settings look. It sounds like turning Dynamic Resolution off might fix a lot of the grossness of lower settings.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:05
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I should be just over the recommended specs for everything but GPU(3070 not 3080) so I'm not worried, but I'll probably crank quality down because I'm not that worried about the game looking photorealistic
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Oct 24, 2023 00:34
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MikeC posted:I sincerely hope DLSS and FSR 2 support is in the works. It is, but they have to apparently redo assets and how they're rendered because the game doesn't support TAA. Bedurndurn posted:The teeth thing would only be a problem if there weren't different level of detail models for the cims. The model you see at 2 inches away from the camera shouldn't be the exact same model you see from a mile away. I've definitely seen devs gently caress that up though. DCS had an issue earlier this year where they added some WW2 planes, but never set up the level of detail stuff correctly, so half the triangles it would be rendering at any time were on an inactive old prop plane halfway across the map. in a game where there are no facial animations and every character's mouth is closed i think that there really is zero reason for there to be teeth, especially when there are potentially hundreds or thousands of characters on screen at once i also doubt that they have LODs, they got a bunch of models generated by some tool and then just stuffed them into the game. turn off the TV fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 00:36
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I got a new rig this summer and from what CPP says I'm plenty beefy enough to power through performance issues.  But also the news from streamers over the last week or so suggests that CO have at least a decent overview of the source(s) of performance problems and have been pushing out daily patches (even more often one time, I think?) that have already started shaping things up. Assuming they do indeed spend some time working on optimization after release I can't imagine it's going to hurt the game's long-term prospects, especially not when it's really the only major city builder out there. Sucks for them that they'll forever be mid-70s on Metacritic but hey ho, is that really going to matter in six or eight years when we've had a bunch of DLCs and if the game is sitting at like 90% positive on Steam?
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Oct 24, 2023 02:40
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Is this game good or bad?
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Oct 24, 2023 02:59
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Grand Fromage posted:From what I've gathered here's the tech advice everyone should do right away: Depth of field too
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Oct 24, 2023 03:33
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Tarnop posted:Depth of field too I knew there was one I missed but couldn't think of it. Thanks.
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Oct 24, 2023 03:36
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Omnicarus posted:Is this game good or bad? Looks good if you have a beefy rig and want more of a city "sim" rather than a city painter.
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Oct 24, 2023 04:05
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I can't even fathom why they would even bother modeling the teeth of Sims in the game. They're tiny little ants. Why are they even opening their mouths
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Oct 24, 2023 04:10
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The cim models are generated by a third party procedural human generation library they licensed. It does say it'll generate multiple appropriate tiers of detail and culled models but it feels like they maybe let the highest detail level be too high. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 04:12
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They also should've turned the "weird and creepy" slider down on the kids.
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Oct 24, 2023 04:19
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I think a lot of the creepy is also that the library's outputs probably weren't designed to be rendered in as flat and simple lighting conditions and rendering parameters that individual cims have in skylines.
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Oct 24, 2023 04:21
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I wonder if going for something low-poly and non-realistic would have worked better...
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Oct 24, 2023 04:22
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They look better than the absolute freaks in Cities XL at least.
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Oct 24, 2023 04:26
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Looks like this game runs poorly from the reviews? I can wait for a bit I guess
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Oct 24, 2023 04:33
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OddObserver posted:I wonder if going for something low-poly and non-realistic would have worked better... I think we already know the answer to that
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Oct 24, 2023 05:03
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I mean something low-poly would've absolutely worked better, but did they have the tooling and/or manpower to do that?MikeJF posted:The cim models are generated by a third party procedural human generation library they licensed. The detail level setting is probably for LODs, they probably look like dogshit if you look at them from closer.
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Oct 24, 2023 06:12
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MikeC posted:I sincerely hope DLSS and FSR 2 support is in the works.
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Oct 24, 2023 07:51
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Combat Pretzel posted:Oh. Skimming over this thread, DLSS was mentioned quite a few times. Thought it did support it already. Because I’d like to play in 4K without halving my frame rate. The preview version that was send out only supports AMD FSR1. There is however at least one of the files required for DLSS in the game folder. There's just no option to use it. My guess is that it's currently still in development and release day just came to early.
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Oct 24, 2023 08:31
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This is turning into a perfect case study on 'for gently caress's sake just let them delay the game another month or two'.
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Oct 24, 2023 08:33
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MikeJF posted:This is turning into a perfect case study on 'for gently caress's sake just let them delay the game another month or two'. No. I want to play CS2 now.
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Oct 24, 2023 08:34
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There's "optimisation" and "optimisation". When people say not to prematurely optimise, they mean don't spend a lot of time manually unrolling every loop to eke out a few cycles in a region of code that rarely gets executed. You still need to build an architecture that doesn't do something inherently inefficient, because you may never be able to rebuild your foundations. CS2 seems to be in the camp of wildly inefficient use to assets, which is baffling. Having a poly/texture/draw call budget has been with us basically forever. Like, OG Doom spends quite a lot of work to cull stuff, including how the levels are designed. At least it should be fixable by fixing the assets, an inherently doable task. If it were an architectural issue it may be nontrivial.
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Oct 24, 2023 09:04
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I'm looking forward to finding out why the frame rate keeps dropping as you go from 0 to 25,000 population and then basically stays the same after that. Remembering the reaction when people found out about all the simulation fakery in SC2013
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Oct 24, 2023 10:59
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I doubt that's simulator fakery, the performance issues aren't CPU. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a render cap though.
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Oct 24, 2023 11:03
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