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Randalor posted:Where are the doctors supposed to move their operation to, and how? To the camps in the south, concentrated full of other internally displaced peoples. It’s war; don’t expect a pretty answer.
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Oct 24, 2023 12:30
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mannerup posted:I was so curious I wanted to look up how that Sky News interview is being reported so far why the gently caress would they publish this without at least getting a loving translator to look at it absolutely pathetic
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Oct 24, 2023 12:36
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ummel posted:Why do you keep posting this reply to unrelated posts? Because mid life has yet to answer the question from before he was probated I believe.
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Oct 24, 2023 12:38
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:To the camps in the south, concentrated full of other internally displaced peoples. It’s war; don’t expect a pretty answer. And how do the doctors move all the people in their care? Edit: ummel posted:Why do you keep posting this reply to unrelated posts? Because Mid-Life Crisis said Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not saying two wrongs make any party here right to do whatever they want. What I’m pointing out is that doctors keeping hospitals from moving at this point and turning them into hubs is not helping the situation at hand, it’s playing into Hamas’ goals. There is a clear distinction between Hamas and Palestinians right now, which in itself I find to be progress in the grand scheme of things. Blaming the doctors for being shot at for upholding their hippocraric oaths and saying that it's their fault for trying to save as many lives as they could, then repeatedly ignored people when asked where the doctors are supposed to move to, and how. Randalor fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 13:01
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E2M2 posted:I mean yeah when the State Department is talking about human rights abuses and then they park two aircraft carriers so that Israel can commit ethnic cleansing in peace. Hezbollah firing a bunch of rockets at Israel isn’t going to help Gaza any, and it’s going to make things a lot worse for a lot of Lebanese people. The more deterrent to avoid things getting into an even worse regional war the better. The only better thing they could do would be to stop Israel bombing Gaza and forcing them to supply water and allow Rafah to reopen, but avoiding Hezbollah-Israel going from lukewarm to hot is important as well.
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Oct 24, 2023 13:12
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Saladman posted:Hezbollah firing a bunch of rockets at Israel isn’t going to help Gaza any, and it’s going to make things a lot worse for a lot of Lebanese people. The more deterrent to avoid things getting into an even worse regional war the better. The only better thing they could do would be to stop Israel bombing Gaza and forcing them to supply water and allow Rafah to reopen, but avoiding Hezbollah-Israel going from lukewarm to hot is important as well. Any move that is not putting political and military pressure on Israel to end the occupation is supporting the same occupation. Rather than being important, it is actually participation in ethnic cleansing at a minimum.
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Oct 24, 2023 13:30
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Randalor posted:And how do the doctors move all the people in their care? Mid-Life Crisis posted:To the camps in the south, concentrated full of other internally displaced peoples. It’s war; don’t expect a pretty answer. The only way this could actually be accomplished would be with a cease fire and a humanitarian corridor in order to move critical patients. It's not just "put em in an ambulance and move em." A significant amount of patients would die just from the move.
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Oct 24, 2023 13:33
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Randalor posted:
The Hippocratic Oath does not require doctors to keep a hospital running on a battlefield. Those Doctors should be trying to save as many lives as they can. The best way to do that is to evacuate the patients from battlefield as they face certain death when the inevitable ground invasion starts.
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Oct 24, 2023 13:33
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Saladman posted:Hezbollah firing a bunch of rockets at Israel isn’t going to help Gaza any, and it’s going to make things a lot worse for a lot of Lebanese people. The more deterrent to avoid things getting into an even worse regional war the better. The only better thing they could do would be to stop Israel bombing Gaza and forcing them to supply water and allow Rafah to reopen, but avoiding Hezbollah-Israel going from lukewarm to hot is important as well. daslog posted:The Hippocratic Oath does not require doctors to keep a hospital running on a battlefield. Those Doctors should be trying to save as many lives as they can. The best way to do that is to evacuate the patients from battlefield as they face certain death when the inevitable ground invasion starts. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 13:36
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mrfart posted:There’s an urban warfare podcast about the tunnels that I didn’t listen to through the end because the specialist in tunnel warfare and host seemed a bit too enthusiastic. all one neat tricks that’ll never actually work. defeated in order: gas mask, elevation changes + doors, oxygen tanks and multiple portholes for air exchange.
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Oct 24, 2023 13:37
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the hostages are in the tunnels so i guess you just kill them all if you use those tricks
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Oct 24, 2023 13:59
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Brucolac posted:Evacuate to where? And by what route? The bombs are falling in the south of Gaza too, and the humanitarian corridors have not exactly been honoured. To the south. And yes all the options are bad now, but they are going to get ever worse.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:04
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daslog posted:To the south. And yes all the options are bad now, but they are going to get ever worse.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:13
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I think the attacks proved that IDF are rather poor fighters and IDF infantry reservists do not train very much for intense, street-to-street urban combat. The IDF will rely on their shiny toys they get from the US to soften the Palestinians, which means they’re just going to indiscriminately bomb Gaza as they have been openly doing. Launching a ground invasion will be very taxing for the Israelis. They want to starve and bomb the Palestinians first. The US will have their carrier groups to prevent anyone from breaking the Gaza blockade.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:19
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NovemberMike posted:That could possibly be it. The qassam could have even hit before or after. My main problem is that no Israeli munition makes any sense here. A regular JDAM leaves a crater you can fit one of those cars in comfortably. An airburst would be sending heavy shrapnel into the buildings around there. A DIME is designed to have a super small area where it effectively kills people so mass casualties don't make sense there. Artillery is too small for that much damage and would leave a bigger crater. Serious question. Are you some kind of munitions expert or something?
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Oct 24, 2023 14:19
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Brucolac posted:If only bombs didn't fall from the sky in Gaza due to natural causes not in anyone's control. If it sets you at ease to assign blame that's fine with me, but I would argue events are no longer in any individual's control. A series of predetermined events was set into motion, and war is now inevitable. Those patients need to be moved. If you want an example, just look at the USA's reaction to 9/11: Invade a third party country and kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians. The scale wont be the same here (hopefully) but the same reaction will be.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:21
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NovemberMike posted:That could possibly be it. The qassam could have even hit before or after. My main problem is that no Israeli munition makes any sense here. A regular JDAM leaves a crater you can fit one of those cars in comfortably. An airburst would be sending heavy shrapnel into the buildings around there. A DIME is designed to have a super small area where it effectively kills people so mass casualties don't make sense there. Artillery is too small for that much damage and would leave a bigger crater. DIME hitting a very densely packed crowd seems consistent with everything that's confirmed.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:32
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Jen heir rick posted:Serious question. Are you some kind of munitions expert or something? Also serious question, I thought JDAM was like, the guidance software/system added on that makes a dumb bomb smart to target specific stuff, not a specific size/type of bomb itself.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:33
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Neo Rasa posted:Also serious question, I thought JDAM was like, the guidance software/system added on that makes a dumb bomb smart ti target specific stuff, not a specific size/type of bomb itself. This is correct. It's about as specific as saying 'bomb'. Using it like that is a good tell that the person does not know what they are talking about.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:36
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Brucolac posted:Evacuate to where? And by what route? The bombs are falling in the south of Gaza too, and the humanitarian corridors have not exactly been honoured. Have they publicized an outcry for external helicopter transport to get the critical out so they can move the rest who are naively thinking the hospital at this point is a shelter, or have they just been crying victim to hope to affect the outcome of the war? The Hippocratic oath persuades them to heal anyone who comes, even if they grab a gun and shoot their neighbor after recovering. It doesn’t demand they put thousands in harms way to save a few. The doctors are effectively using the civilians sheltered there as shields at this point. There’s not 5000 critical patients in the hospital, but there are people. The doctors are effectively playing politics and it’s emotional at this point to argue otherwise. I’m not arguing that Israel is acting in good faith about setting up any semblance of humane alternatives for them. They aren’t right now and Biden is enabling this, not forcing the issue as he solely in the world should have the power to. Neither is Hamas allowing for it, realistically speaking. Both parties are known bad actors. There’s this idea that the lesser powerful parties or victims of their own state’s militias have no agency in their decisions, but fact is they can make their own determinations and choose less lovely options instead of freezing still and further complicating the situation. If they walk their trail of tears, losing many on the way, they gain all the worldwide sympathy. If they hold out and create problems for the militants they lose sympathy among the third party moderates, who are those they need the most right now. If they stay put and demand a cease fire they aren’t realizing the world isn’t on their side as much as they think it is after the attack. The Arab world might be, but there’s no Arab military that’s worth a drat who is going to step in. And most of those Arab countries are more afraid of internal unrest than stopping Israel. The strategy Palestinians had to continue with is come out as morally correct to the foreign parties who have the power to affect Israel and they are failing spectacularly at this right now, doubling down with Hamas and being pawns in Iran’s widespread guerrilla approach that over stretches the imperialists. Iran is sacrificing them in this battle. There’s this conception that war crimes are punishable crimes. The only ones who get punished are the ones who ultimately lose the war. The morality police at best write history books after they’re dead that shade a negative light on the situation. The winners get off, with very few exceptions. Debating that is a fools errand. I’m more interested in discussion what motivates the egomaniacs who unfortunately have the power to make decisions here and what options they have after each die is cast. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 24, 2023 14:43
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daslog posted:To the south. And yes all the options are bad now, but they are going to get ever worse. To which hospital in the south? How are you transporting patients on dialysis? By what means are you evacuating thousands of hospital patients who can't safely be transported? On which roads should you take in order to avoid bombings? You are presenting it to be the case that hospitals can simply pack up their patients and move them south - there is no other hospital that they can go to. Doctors aren't deciding that they want their patients and coworkers to die as the bombings continue - they are just accurately appraising that there is no other option. I mean for fucks sake, how are you transporting patients at all when you don't have any fuel? This is the most ghoulish thing that I have ever seen. shades of blue fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 14:45
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If blowing up hospitals and trail of tears 2023 edition didn’t make it clear that political motivations are not high on the list I’m not sure what else would be a sign. Igniting fires to consume oxygen is effectively the same thing. I digress. It’s about to get ugly. I think you are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to deal with an extensive tunnel system. For example, US troops did attempt to use gas and water to flush the Viet Cong out of tunnels. They also tried to use explosives against the tunnels, not just with aerial bombing but also by sending engineers to plant explosive charges directly above tunnels. The US even engaged in operations involving the forced removal of civilian villages above suspected tunnel complexes, followed by the destruction of buildings and jungle above those tunnels in hopes that it'd make the tunnels easier to deal with. The reason they failed to deal with the tunnels wasn't because they were unwilling to take these measures, but rather because these measures weren't nearly as effective as expected. Ultimately, despite their efforts to avoid doing so, they found that there was little choice but to send infantry underground to directly explore and clear the tunnels - a highly dangerous task, and one far too large for them to reasonably manage. Underground tunnel systems for guerilla warfare against an enemy with total air superiority aren't just sealed holes in the ground. They're actually quite sophisticated. The Viet Cong's tunnels had extensive ventilation systems that made gas, smoke, and fire largely ineffective, and deep drains and U-bends substantially limited the impact of flooding. We can reasonably expect Hamas to have taken similar measures. And it's not just the US that's had problem with fortified tunnel complexes. The Soviet Army, hardly one to be squeamish about methods, was incapable of neutralizing mujahideen tunnel networks in Afghanistan. Whatever podcasters told you it's easy for a sufficiently ruthless military to deal with tunnel systems are, quite frankly, full of poo poo. daslog posted:The Hippocratic Oath does not require doctors to keep a hospital running on a battlefield. Those Doctors should be trying to save as many lives as they can. The best way to do that is to evacuate the patients from battlefield as they face certain death when the inevitable ground invasion starts. The point people are trying to make is that evacuating a hospital is extremely difficult and just about guaranteed to kill a few people, as it's impossible to maintain care quality for injured and incapacitated patients while removing them all from the hospital and shipping them miles away. That's especially true in Gaza, where the hospital system is already overwhelmed - the hospitals in Southern Gaza don't even have enough beds for their current patients, so where are they going to put everyone who's currently at hospitals in Northern Gaza? A ground invasion should absolutely not be "certain death" for hospital patients. It's not really that hard to not shoot at a loving hospital! daslog posted:If it sets you at ease to assign blame that's fine with me, but I would argue events are no longer in any individual's control. A series of predetermined events was set into motion, and war is now inevitable. Those patients need to be moved. Events are absolutely under the control of individuals. Wars don't spontaneously happen out of nowhere. When one country invades another country, it's because the political and military leaders of one country decided to start an invasion of that other country. It's not a natural disaster or something, it's an intentional decision made by human beings. The US invasion of Iraq was not some "predetermined event" (whatever that even means), it was an intentional policy pursued by Bush and his advisors even before 9/11.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:49
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shades of blue posted:To which hospital in the south? How are you transporting patients on dialysis? By what means are you evacuating thousands of hospital patients who can't safely be transported? On which roads should you take in order to avoid bombings? You are presenting it to be the case that hospitals can simply pack up their patients and move them south - there is no other hospital that they can go to. Doctors aren't deciding that they want their patients and coworkers to die as the bombings continue - they are just accurately appraising that there is no other option. I'm sorry that I don't have these answers for you. Tragically, Many of the patients will die. Is that what you want 'said' out loud? OK, I'll do it. Many of the sick and wounded are going to die, and it's awful that they will be added to the growing list of casualties of this never ending conflict . They need to be evacuated because more will die if they stay.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:51
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daslog posted:I'm sorry that I don't have these answers for you. Tragically, Many of the patients will die. Is that what you want 'said' out loud? OK, I'll do it. Many of the sick and wounded are going to die, and it's awful that they will be added to the growing list of casualties of this never ending conflict . They need to be evacuated because more will die if they stay. The idea that the Gaza Strip voluntarily dismantling most of its static medical infrastructure will kill less people is a pretty big stretch, even before you get into how profoundly disgusting this tack of piously victim-blaming Gazans for their own ethnic cleansing you and MLC seem to be on is. Look, I understand we're supposed to avoid posting about posters in this thread, but this tendency to write up masturbatory speculation of how the people of Gaza will be exterminated and then blame them for making it inevitable is getting deeply obscene. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 14:54
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I thought this whole article in the London Review of Books was really good, I wish I could quote the whole thing but it's very long. quote:Many analogies have been proposed for Al-Aqsa Flood: the Tet Offensive, Pearl Harbor, Egypt’s attack in October 1973, which started the Yom Kippur War, and, of course, 9/11. But the most suggestive analogy is a pivotal, and largely forgotten, episode in the Algerian War of Independence: the Philippeville uprising of August 1955. Encircled by the French army, fearful of losing ground to reformist Muslim politicians who favoured a negotiated settlement, the FLN launched a gruesome attack in and around the harbour town of Philippeville. Peasants armed with grenades, knives, clubs, axes and pitchforks killed – and in many cases disembowelled – 123 people, mostly Europeans but also a number of Muslims. To the French, the violence seemed unprovoked, but the perpetrators believed they were avenging the killing of tens of thousands of Muslims by the French army, assisted by settler militias, after the independence riots of 1945. In response to Philippeville, France’s liberal governor-general, Jacques Soustelle, whom the European community considered an untrustworthy ‘Arab lover’, carried out a campaign of repression in which more than ten thousand Algerians were killed. By over-reacting, Soustelle fell into the FLN’s trap: the army’s brutality drove Algerians into the arms of the rebels, just as Israel’s ferocious response is likely to strengthen Hamas at least temporarily, even among Palestinians in Gaza who resent its authoritarian rule. Soustelle himself admitted that he had helped dig ‘a moat through which flowed a river of blood’. https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n21/adam-shatz/vengeful-pathologies
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Oct 24, 2023 14:55
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daslog posted:I'm sorry that I don't have these answers for you. Tragically, Many of the patients will die. Is that what you want 'said' out loud? OK, I'll do it. Many of the sick and wounded are going to die, and it's awful that they will be added to the growing list of casualties of this never ending conflict . They need to be evacuated because more will die if they stay. crazy idea but maybe Israel shouldn't be genociding Palestinians. Doesnt really seem to be helping them in defeating Hamas at all. I'm pretty sure this kind of poo poo only strengthens them in the long term tbh.
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Oct 24, 2023 14:56
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daslog posted:If it sets you at ease to assign blame that's fine with me, but I would argue events are no longer in any individual's control. A series of predetermined events was set into motion, and war is now inevitable. Those patients need to be moved. Even if war is inevitable (it isn't) the way Israel engages isn't and they've chosen mass retribution of innocents through a bombing campaign. You're just waving your hands to dismiss responsibility.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:01
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Saladman posted:Hezbollah firing a bunch of rockets at Israel isn’t going to help Gaza any, and it’s going to make things a lot worse for a lot of Lebanese people. The more deterrent to avoid things getting into an even worse regional war the better. The only better thing they could do would be to stop Israel bombing Gaza and forcing them to supply water and allow Rafah to reopen, but avoiding Hezbollah-Israel going from lukewarm to hot is important as well. Adding onto this, I think it's important recognize the context of this situation. Israeli was in the process of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabi which is a huge big deal but would leave a major player in the Middle East Iran in a seriously tough spot. An escalation of this conflict is bad for both Israeli and the Palestinians.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:19
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Adding onto this, I think it's important recognize the context of this situation. Israeli was in the process of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabi which is a huge big deal but would leave a major player in the Middle East Iran in a seriously tough spot. Why is it a huge deal that two autocratic authoritarian nations propped up by the US military industrial complex are about to “normalize relations”
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Oct 24, 2023 15:21
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Adding onto this, I think it's important recognize the context of this situation. Israeli was in the process of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabi which is a huge big deal but would leave a major player in the Middle East Iran in a seriously tough spot. It's probably worth noting here that this 'normalisation' was widely seen as MBS selling out Palestinians for that sweet, sweet Israeli weaponry (given how few actual, concrete concessions towards Palestinian rights he seemed to be pushing for, and how hard the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank was escalating in the meantime), which may have had a role in how, uh, ambitious Hamas's eventual breakout attack was. They were desperate to show that regional powers couldn't ignore Gaza - and on that level, at least, they appear to have accomplished their mission. Israel's growing détente with its neighbours appears to be dead in the water.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:24
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Gumball Gumption posted:Even if war is inevitable (it isn't) the way Israel engages isn't and they've chosen mass retribution of innocents through a bombing campaign. You're just waving your hands to dismiss responsibility. I don't see anyone providing the type of leadership out there required to stop the war, but I am interested in hearing how you think it could happen. Even if the US had a strong leader instead of an Octogenarian, we are at the beginning of an election cycle which inevitably means the two (older that dirt) candidates will try to outdo each other to demonstrate that they support Israel more than the other guy. Also, one of our legislative branches is completely paralyzed because they can't decide on a speaker. So, inevitably, the USA will back Israel with money and weaponry. Nor can I see Israeli leadership moderating the call to war. Netanyahu will do anything to stay in power, and in this case that means he has to appear to be doing whatever it takes to destroy Hamas. So as I see it, the war has already started and a bloody ground invasion is inevitable. We should try to save as many as we can while staying realistic. Edit: Forgot to mention one of the US candidates for president is under indictment. It's a total cluster here. daslog fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 15:36
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BUUNNI posted:Why is it a huge deal that two autocratic authoritarian nations propped up by the US military industrial complex are about to “normalize relations” Because if Israel's able to achieve normal economic & travel relations with its neighbors without having to give any decent treatment to the Palestinians, then the Palestinian cause is basically permanently dead. The Abraham Accords were an attempt to prevent the Palestinian question from impeding the Israeli economy, the Simchas Torah attacks took that off the table. Possibly to the long-term benefit of Palestine, obviously to short-term horror.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:41
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Have they publicized an outcry for external helicopter transport to get the critical out so they can move the rest who are naively thinking the hospital at this point is a shelter, or have they just been crying victim to hope to affect the outcome of the war? The Hippocratic oath persuades them to heal anyone who comes, even if they grab a gun and shoot their neighbor after recovering. It doesn’t demand they put thousands in harms way to save a few. The doctors are effectively using the civilians sheltered there as shields at this point. There’s not 5000 critical patients in the hospital, but there are people. The doctors are effectively playing politics and it’s emotional at this point to argue otherwise. I don't think you know how hospitals work. Hospitals need tools and machines and medicine to keep people alive. If you make everyone march away from the hospital, they are walking away from the stuff that keeps them alive. Hospital patients are also often very poorly. Like, if you are a patient in a hospital it's probably because you are very sick or very injured. You say that there aren't actually very many people in bad shape at the hospital, most of them could just get up and leave if they wanted. I don't think that's true. That seems self-evidently not true to me. I feel like I don't even need to provide evidence that it's not true because it should be common sense that most of the people in a hospital in an active war zone are probably in pretty bad shape. So I'm gonna challenge you to provide evidence that most of the people in the hospital could get up and start walking south. I think that's a big claim that you need to provide evidence for. So all that established, (hospitals are full of the stuff you need to keep people alive and the people in hospitals are there because they need that stuff) it does kinda suggest that the doctors aren't "playing politics" by refusing to leave. That they're actually refusing to leave because they're trying to keep the people in the hospital alive, and that requires those people to be in the hospital with the stuff. Your suggestion is that the doctors simply abandon everyone too sick to walk and then march everyone else south to another hospital which will be even less equipped to handle them does not seem like a very humanitarian choice. It actually seems like a way worse choice. Would you have the doctors simply leave the ones who can't walk to die, or would you prefer they euthanize them to put them out of their misery? Because that's the choice you want them to make. You say that that will somehow engender more goodwill for Palestine than Israel bombing a hospital did. Which doesn't seem to be based on anything. If anything I would argue the opposite, because, as we have literally just seen "Israel bombed a hospital" engendered a ton of goodwill towards the Palestinians and anger towards the Israelis. Like, they have worldwide sympathy already.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:53
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BUUNNI posted:Why is it a huge deal that two autocratic authoritarian nations propped up by the US military industrial complex are about to “normalize relations” Where to begin? Iran cannot take on a United arab sunni faction. You do know that Saudi Arabia and Iran are not friends, right? As a side note, the geopolitical winner of the situation regarding the hospital, is Iran. 🤫
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Oct 24, 2023 15:54
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Darth Walrus posted:It's probably worth noting here that this 'normalisation' was widely seen as MBS selling out Palestinians for that sweet, sweet Israeli weaponry (given how few actual, concrete concessions towards Palestinian rights he seemed to be pushing for, and how hard the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank was escalating in the meantime), which may have had a role in how, uh, ambitious Hamas's eventual breakout attack was. They were desperate to show that regional powers couldn't ignore Gaza - and on that level, at least, they appear to have accomplished their mission. Israel's growing détente with its neighbours appears to be dead in the water. It has little to do with weapons but "Security Guarantees" from the United States if they were to be attacked from Iran it they would be supported. There's also the additional economic benefits from trade with the US, Israeli and other western partners but it's bigger than that because Saudi Arabi desperately needs to diversify it's economy from oil plus fund MBS pet projects like Neom and whatever else. This also shows the rest of the ME that the US or "The West" for that matter is still major player and cozying up to Russia/China might not be that good of an idea. I don't see the Palestinian people getting necessarily hurt out of this and it's unlikely MBS even as a non-elected King would probably have a tough time signing this deal without giving Palestinian something out of it and it was largely rumored they would.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:54
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Because if Israel's able to achieve normal economic & travel relations with its neighbors without having to give any decent treatment to the Palestinians, then the Palestinian cause is basically permanently dead. That’s a pessimistic take. If they normalized relations then there opens communication channels to have conversations that lead to standing down as a condition to further open up. Having communication channels is needed first. Instead Hamas jumped up and made sure this wasn’t an option.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:59
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:It has little to do with weapons but "Security Guarantees" from the United States if they were to be attacked from Iran it they would be supported. There's also the additional economic benefits from trade with the US, Israeli and other western partners but it's bigger than that because Saudi Arabi desperately needs to diversify it's economy from oil plus fund MBS pet projects like Neom and whatever else. This also shows the rest of the ME that the US or "The West" for that matter is still major player and cozying up to Russia/China might not be that good of an idea. The problem was that the Palestinian situation was already untenable, and was becoming more so as the deal was negotiated, with Gaza becoming less liveable by the day and more West Bank villages getting concreted and bulldozed while Israeli politicians ramped up their genocidal rhetoric. This wasn't a case where anyone in Palestine could just accept the status quo and hope that maybe a wealthy autocrat would slightly mitigate their ongoing ethnic cleansing, and the very fact that Saudi Arabia was attempting 'normalisation' while all this was happening without doing anything obvious to stop it was itself a damning indictment of their intent.
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Oct 24, 2023 15:59
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Have they publicized an outcry for external helicopter transport to get the critical out so they can move the rest who are naively thinking the hospital at this point is a shelter, or have they just been crying victim to hope to affect the outcome of the war? Mid-Life Crisis posted:The Hippocratic oath persuades them to heal anyone who comes, even if they grab a gun and shoot their neighbor after recovering. It doesn’t demand they put thousands in harms way to save a few. The doctors are effectively using the civilians sheltered there as shields at this point. There’s not 5000 critical patients in the hospital, but there are people. The doctors are effectively playing politics and it’s emotional at this point to argue otherwise. Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they walk their trail of tears, losing many on the way, they gain all the worldwide sympathy. If they hold out and create problems for the militants they lose sympathy among the third party moderates, who are those they need the most right now. If they stay put and demand a cease fire they aren’t realizing the world isn’t on their side as much as they think it is after the attack.
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Oct 24, 2023 16:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Obama came out with a quite measured public statement on the situation along with some references for additional content. Not a single mention of a call for cease fire. This is just the typical pro-Israel liberal stance: Israel can do whatever the gently caress it wants, but we'll wring our hands and feel bad about all the innocent Palestinians it murders without doing anything to stop it. A former president adding his voice to the calls for cease fire would be incredibly powerful, and he has nothing to lose for it, but he chooses not to.
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Oct 24, 2023 16:06
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Have they publicized an outcry for external helicopter transport
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Oct 24, 2023 16:09
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