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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 18:18
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mannerup posted:people that commit atrocities against civilians, women and children are completely morally indefensible and saying this only shows your complete lack of a moral compass. you have nothing worthwhile to say about morality if you tacitly endorse those sick and depraved actions as “methods” you don’t quite agree with, but think the benefits of slaughtering women and children outweigh the human costs Except that we can't even confirm how many of the deaths actually came from hamas, many of the worst deaths likely came from the IDF, who first hand accounts of survivors said were shelling their homes with tanks.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:21
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mannerup posted:people that commit atrocities against civilians, women and children are completely morally indefensible and saying this only shows your complete lack of a moral compass. you have nothing worthwhile to say about morality if you tacitly endorse those sick and depraved actions as “methods” you don’t quite agree with, but think the benefits of slaughtering women and children outweigh the human costs Speaking of which:  WTF is wrong with young people.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:22
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Mister Fister posted:Speaking of which: The youth today make me so proud.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:24
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pro starcraft loser posted:Was there confirmation that Israel didn't want to accept these two hostages at first? That really baffled me. Bibi's response was quite widely reported, for instance by Reuters and The Guardian. They insisted that Hamas had never offered to release the hostages and called their claim to have done so "mendacious propaganda." That's not an outright admission of refusing the hostages, but it's the kind of kneejerk evasiveness that is hard to read in any charitable fashion. The extremely obvious response would be that of course they would accept an unconditional offer of release, so if Hamas weren't bullshitting, they can work this out right now, and I can't think of a reason they wouldn't say that if the hostages were at all a priority.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:26
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I said come in! posted:Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting hamas. I don't full on agree with their methods, but they are freedom fighters, not a terrorist group. [/url]  , you can try to make the case that their terrorist attacks area tragic necessity for the cause of Palestinian liberation, but they're still terrorist attacks.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:26
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I think it's possible to be sympathetic to the cause of Palestinian liberation but also hope Hamas is replaced by a more constructive and less vile organization, there's no need to support the continued relevance of Hamas in its current form. There's so many examples of successful resistance movements who manage to eke out victories without committing atrocities there's no justification as to why Hamas is the exception.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:30
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 18:34
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Fister Roboto posted:Not a single mention of a call for cease fire. This is just the typical pro-Israel liberal stance: Israel can do whatever the gently caress it wants, but we'll wring our hands and feel bad about all the innocent Palestinians it murders without doing anything to stop it. A former president adding his voice to the calls for cease fire would be incredibly powerful, and he has nothing to lose for it, but he chooses not to. Late to respond to this, but agreed. Obama continues to just be careful and not wield any of the power he easily could.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:34
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Gumball Gumption posted:Even if war is inevitable (it isn't) the way Israel engages isn't and they've chosen mass retribution of innocents through a bombing campaign. You're just waving your hands to dismiss responsibility. Again, I would be interested in hearing a realistic scenario where Israel doesn't invade Gaza.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:35
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I said come in! posted:Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting hamas. I don't full on agree with their methods, but they are freedom fighters, not a terrorist group. They are doing what they need to in order to secure freedom for the Palestinians and there is absolutely no choices they can make that is correct. That would also imply that there are no incorrect choices for them, which basically means you're saying, might makes right, there's no sense in debating ethics, vae victis, etc which i don't know is a good idea.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:35
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Kalit posted:Ummmm….what do you mean by this? This part to me reads as if you’re supportive of Hamas, is that a correct interpretation? I'd prefer if they successfully repel Israel's ground invasion, and having bomb-resistant tunnels would be an important aspect of that. Would I prefer if Hamas, overnight, was replaced with the Palestinian Liberation Front, of equal administrative & military strength and competence? Absolutely. Is that going to happen? Probably not for the duration of the occupation at-minimum. mannerup posted:are you seriously framing beating, robbing and forcefully kidnapping an 85 year old woman as "emotional fighters vent[ing] on the hostages" and then continuing to detain her against her will as effort by "kinder heads"? For the record, I'm against the treatment she received as she was abducted, and the fact that she was abducted at all; they shouldn't have abducted two grandmothers, there were military targets to abduct. As far as hostage situations go though, yeah, I'd say that the administators were characteristically, as she puts it, "nice". The reality of how Palestinian prisoners are freed, that Israel & Palestine have accepted, is via prisoner exchanges, and within those limits the administrators are not as uneccessarily cruel as they could be. This is also within the context that a Hamas leader died in containment literally the day prior. And that was one of the Palestinians they should want alive as a high-value asset. Other less important Palestinians undoubtedly have followed him with no fanfare. In short, my point is "Hamas are not bloodthirsty", not "look how cute their kidnapping was!" quote:they also continue to hold their husbands hostage, where their public statements need to be taken in the context they still have friends and family held by Hamas who are using their lives as political bargaining chips. She gave an interview of her own volition; if she didn't want to compliment her captors she easily could have, unless you'd argue that they're threatening her husband unless she gives a press tour? Like, that's not outside the realm of possibility, but prior hostage testimonies make me more likely to believe Hamas simply doesn't abuse their hostages once they're captive. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 18:35
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Ograbme posted:
I don't like using the term terrorist because it's so easily used by western super powers to discredit and quiet anyone who doesn't fall in line with their colonizer & white supremacist agenda. What makes hamas terrorists as opposed to the United States, or Israel, who also carry out horrific and barbaric attacks on people? I would prefer no one kill anyone else. Panzeh posted:That would also imply that there are no incorrect choices for them, which basically means you're saying, might makes right, there's no sense in debating ethics, vae victis, etc which i don't know is a good idea. Fair enough! I see your point, because then it gets into what Israel is doing can be argued as justified, which i've pretty clearly stated throughout this thread it isnt. Israel needs to use this opportunity to stop the fighting, and make peace with the Palestinians, since their plan from before October 7th clearly doesn't work. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 18:36
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Mister Fister posted:Speaking of which: They objectively weren't genocidal so the results of the second poll are a shame.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:36
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mannerup posted:people that commit atrocities against civilians, women and children are completely morally indefensible and saying this only shows your complete lack of a moral compass. you have nothing worthwhile to say about morality if you tacitly endorse those sick and depraved actions as “methods” you don’t quite agree with, but think the benefits of slaughtering women and children outweigh the human costs So the IRA was indefensible? Were the British wrong to negotiate peace because it was tacitly endorsing those methods as effective?
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Oct 24, 2023 18:37
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think it's possible to be sympathetic to the cause of Palestinian liberation but also hope Hamas is replaced by a more constructive and less vile organization, there's no need to support the continued relevance of Hamas in its current form. There's so many examples of successful resistance movements who manage to eke out victories without committing atrocities there's no justification as to why Hamas is the exception. That said, you pretty much have to accept the current relevance of Hamas given that it's the incumbent government of the Gaza Strip, with no seriously plausible/palatable alternatives that exist at present (especially since the current military initiative against it seems less invested in a regime change that might benefit/have legitimacy with Gazan Palestinians, and more in genociding/displacing them and ruling an empty desert).
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Oct 24, 2023 18:38
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Bel Shazar posted:The youth today make me so proud. Based on these figures, at least 13% of respondents age 18-24 believe yes the attacks were genocidal and yes they were justified. 19% for 25-34, 11% for 35-44. Conversely, I don't think genocide is ever justifiable. I thought the whole problem with Zionism was the genocide, and the murder of civilians. But now I'm seeing users here who think the problem is that it's the *wrong* people being killed, the *wrong* nation facing genocide. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 18:41
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Marenghi posted:So the IRA was indefensible? Targeting vulnerable and innocent people is indefensible no matter how much you can justify it as a necessary evil. This is in fact the entire reason why Israel is doing is cruel and evil and why the claim of "but we need to root out Hamas by bombing everything into rubble' is disgusting.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:42
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 18:44
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Bel Shazar posted:The youth today make me so proud. Christ, horseshoe theory is real.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:47
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I said come in! posted:I don't like using the term terrorist because it's so easily used by western super powers to discredit and quiet anyone who doesn't fall in line with their colonizer & white supremacist agenda. What makes hamas terrorists as opposed to the United States, or Israel, who also carry out horrific and barbaric attacks on people? I would prefer no one kill anyone else. Who here has claimed that the US and/or Israel aren’t terrorists when they wipe out innocent civilians? I certainly would categorize that as terroristic behavior. Stop trying to justify mass civilian attacks simply because it’s not coming from a “western super power”.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:50
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I said come in! posted:Except that we can't even confirm how many of the deaths actually came from hamas, many of the worst deaths likely came from the IDF, who first hand accounts of survivors said were shelling their homes with tanks. You're talking about the margins like they're the whole.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:50
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Kalit posted:Who here has claimed that the US and/or Israel aren’t terrorists when they wipe out innocent civilians? I certainly would categorize that as terroristic behavior. Okay fair, I can agree with you on this point. And I dont think anyone in this thread is saying that, just that this is the constant framing in the news media and how western governments frame it.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:50
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mannerup posted:I will once again state in this thread that I believe not committing atrocities against civilians, women and children is a categorical imperative; there is no situation in which it is morally justifiable. None. Zero. I haven't seen anyone defending atrocities or kidnapping of civilians. But I believe you can support their cause while not agreeing with every action. Your hardline stance that once they engage in a single atrocity to support their cause shows you have no moral compass basically precludes supporting every anti-colonial and independence movement that has ever existed.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:53
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Marenghi posted:I haven't seen anyone defending atrocities or kidnapping of civilians. But I believe you can support their cause while not agreeing with every action. You can criticize a group without criticizing the thing they are fighting for, especially if you believe the actions they take are not something that benefits or helps the cause they are fighting for.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:59
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:00
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Marenghi posted:I haven't seen anyone defending atrocities or kidnapping of civilians. But I believe you can support their cause while not agreeing with every action. Mid-Life Crisis was advocating killing doctors and bombing hospitals was a-ok, does that count as "defending atrocities"?
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Oct 24, 2023 19:00
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Edit: nevermind
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Oct 24, 2023 19:02
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ImpAtom posted:You can criticize a group without criticizing the thing they are fighting for, especially if you believe the actions they take are not something that benefits or helps the cause they are fighting for. And if those bad actions help it? Should you justify it then?
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Oct 24, 2023 19:08
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that is one of the fundamental questions for Palestinians right? Fatah has never been able to stop the settlements and Hamas did.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:10
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Randalor posted:Mid-Life Crisis was advocating killing doctors and bombing hospitals was a-ok, does that count as "defending atrocities"? I missed that. I was responding to the first post on this page which claimed it was 'morally indefensible and showed a complete lack of moral compass' in response to this. I said come in! posted:Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting hamas. I don't full on agree with their methods, but they are freedom fighters, not a terrorist group. Which I took issue with. To say you cannot defend a cause because of atrocities committed basically precludes defending every ant-colonial independence movement of the 20th century. ImpAtom posted:You can criticize a group without criticizing the thing they are fighting for, especially if you believe the actions they take are not something that benefits or helps the cause they are fighting for. Agreed. mannerup posted:it shows moral consistency in believing certain actions are categorically immoral in all cases. if you want to make the argument that they committed morally indefensible actions in pursuit of their movement, I would accept that argument. I cannot accept that it is morally permissible. imo there's no difference between those two statements. The first is just less specific than the second. I support the Cuban revolution, the IRA independence campaign, and the ANC campaign. While not agreeing with all their actions. But I understand it's easier to judge from the sidelines and that real war is messy, especially asymmetric warfare where the risks are higher for the guerrilla fighters, and the command and control structure is less defined than in traditional military's. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:14
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I said come in! posted:I don't like using the term terrorist because it's so easily used by western super powers to discredit and quiet anyone who doesn't fall in line with their colonizer & white supremacist agenda. What makes hamas terrorists as opposed to the United States, or Israel, who also carry out horrific and barbaric attacks on people? I would prefer no one kill anyone else. It sounds like you would prefer it if it was the IDF that killed more Israelis on 10/7 than Hamas. Which there's no real evidence of. And just because you don't like the term terrorist doesn't mean it's not a fitting term for people who slaughter a bunch of ravers. Or was that the IDF too? I guess it was also the IDF that slaughtered themselves in their own barracks? At least that was a legitimate target and that can't be classified as a terror act. Maybe you should concentrate on that one instead of your blanket "Hamas is good" statement. I don't like the term "terrorist supporter" but that seems like a fitting term for you. And before you go thinking I'm some Israel supporter, I think the Israeli government and IDF are terrorists too. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 24, 2023 19:17
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Josef bugman posted:And if those bad actions help it? Should you justify it then? That can only really be determined after the fact in which case allowing it ends up being a carte blanche to be as brutal as humanly possible because well, someone down the line would say it was necessary at some point.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:18
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punishedkissinger posted:that is one of the fundamental questions for Palestinians right? Fatah has never been able to stop the settlements and Hamas did. How much was Sharon's decision to dismantle settlements in Gaza dictated by the threat Hamas posed before they won the election? Strengthening the blockade on Gaza was definitely presented as retaliation to Hamas' rise to power, but I'm not sure it wasn't just mostly internal Israeli politicing.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:19
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Marenghi posted:I haven't seen anyone defending atrocities or kidnapping of civilians. Well, here you go. I said come in! posted:Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting hamas. Great Enoch posted:At best, attending a music festival outside one of the worst humanitarian and political injustices of our time is a deeply ghoulish and callous act; at worst, it's part of a wider cultural industry that works to normalise the suffering and killing of Palestinians. fool of sound posted:I believe that being a people being genocided or enslaved should not be expected to adhere to morality imposed on them by people living in safety and comfort during their struggles against their oppressors. I also believe that anyone who doesn't at least agree that oppressed peoples' resistance has relaxed moral guidelines then they're only paying lip service to the idea of liberation. Pentecoastal Elites posted:If your stance is that Palestinian violence against the Israelis that have brutally oppressed, tortured, maimed, murdered, raped, stolen from, debased, shamed, humiliated, mocked, and otherwise devastated them for generations is in any way inevitable, understandable, or -- heaven forfend -- justified I must disagree in the strongest possible terms Nix Panicus posted:E: Everyone wants Palestine and Hamas to be *better* than the murderous, indiscriminate Israelis, despite the Palestinians having a thousandth of the power of Israel. You want Palestine to forego justice and show unearned mercy to their tormentors in exchange for nothing, while Israel continues to murder and maraude unchecked. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 24, 2023 19:19
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Josef bugman posted:And if those bad actions help it? Should you justify it then? That's a way more loaded question and can only be answered by your own morality. My own personal belief though is, no, you can't. I think it is the duty of everyone to recognize the bad parts of even noble causes and to genuinely question if those bad actions actually helped or if we've just chosen to lionize them in retrospect to help assuage our guilt over the bones and bodies our lives are built on. Otherwise it becomes too easy to justify horrible things as 'necessary' and there are far too many things I was told as a child were 'necessary evils' that I grew up and learned that, no, they were just evils for me to stop questioning the necessary part of an evil.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:20
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punishedkissinger posted:that is one of the fundamental questions for Palestinians right? Fatah has never been able to stop the settlements and Hamas did. So, my knowledge isn’t great on this, but can you explain how Hamas was [primarily] responsible for Israel’s settlement withdrawal? They weren’t in charge of Gaza yet. On top of that, some settlements from West Bank were also removed, which I would guess Hamas has no influence on. It seemed like it was mostly due to PM Sharon pushing the plan (primarily influenced by his son). This part is where I’m fuzzy, since there might have been a lot more external influence going on that I’m unaware of. Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 19:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Well, here you go. I think this example is saying the opposite of what you intended to show? The others look like they support your point.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Well, here you go. I never said I supported their atrocities. Others jumped to that conclusion all on their own. I just said I am not comfortable with calling them terrorists, because its used as a blanket term to completely dismiss their cause and invalidate the freedom they want for Palestinians.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:26
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Ginger Beer Belly posted:I think this example is saying the opposite of what you intended to show? The others look like they support your point. If you look at that poster's other posts at the time it was pretty clear they were doing a sarcastic bit mocking the statements they were making.
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Oct 24, 2023 19:27
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