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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not wrong because you're not considering the argument I am responding to and it's context, which is that the Allies did not intend to split Germany into two independent states, that wasn't what was agreed at Potsdam and Tehran when they agreed to occupation zones, the emergence of East and West Germany are historical quirks of geopolitical circumstances of the cold war, not the predetermined goal to impose on Germany in response to its crimes, otherwise why wasn't Japan split? Who also got to be their own country after a brief period of occupation. Which maybe would've been the better example to go with. You are forgetting the reason it didn't happen in Japan is because the United States nuked the Japanese into submission to beat the Soviets from occupying it like they did North Korea and even then the USSR ended up with Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands while the Americans occupied the home islands for 7 years. There's no applicable analogue to this in the Palestine-Israel conflict. They are fundamentally different situations and not comparable. The Soviet intention was absolutely set up a client state in Japan like they did in Korea and East Germany, they just weren't fast enough. quote:In a bid to occupy as much Japanese territory as possible, Soviet troops continued offensive military operations even after the Japanese surrender, causing large-scale civilian casualties.[9] Such operations included final battles on the Kuril Islands and South Sakhalin well past the end of August in 1945. In the end, despite its initial hopes, the Soviet Union did not manage to occupy any part of the Japanese home islands, largely due to significant U.S. opposition that was backed by the leverage gained by its then newly realized status as the world's only nuclear-armed state. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 23:36
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not wrong because you're not considering the argument I am responding to and it's context, which is that the Allies did not intend to split Germany into two independent states, that wasn't what was agreed at Potsdam and Tehran when they agreed to occupation zones, the emergence of East and West Germany are historical quirks of geopolitical circumstances of the cold war, not the predetermined goal to impose on Germany in response to its crimes, otherwise why wasn't Japan split? Who also got to be their own country after a brief period of occupation. Which maybe would've been the better example to go with. Israel has had a semi-official policy of creating facts on the ground to make a viable two state solution, i.e one that grants Palestine full and complete sovereignty over a contiguous landmass that has the resources necessary to sustain the Palestinian people, impossible. Either all of those facts on the ground would have to be eliminated the equation, which would require the transfer of hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers to different locations, and still leaves Israel with what I'm sure the average Israeli would consider a precarious security situation and revanchist sentiments on both sides, or a single state solution, likely some kind of federated solution where Palestinians and Jews have equal rights and representation. This new state would necessarily require dissolution of the state of Israel as we know it today, as the current corpus of law is incompatible with such a system of government.
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Oct 24, 2023 23:46
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rscott posted:Israel has had a semi-official policy of creating facts on the ground to make a viable two state solution, i.e one that grants Palestine full and complete sovereignty over a contiguous landmass that has the resources necessary to sustain the Palestinian people, impossible. This answers a question i've had about a two state solution. I've always assumed that if one were to happen, Israel would make absolutely sure that Palestinians get completely hosed over and their land would result in Gaza 2.0. Making all of the land fall under one new state / country that everyone there shares equally and has the same rights and treatment, seems like the best solution? Who would lead that and what that would look like, would likely make the western super powers extremely nervous though, so its not likely to ever happen.
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Oct 24, 2023 23:51
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Marenghi posted:Care to point to those, especially ones who tried the peaceful route and were suppressed. Besides what everyone else said, you should also consider that MLK is only considered majority peaceful in retrospect. Angry whites in his time were using the same "destructive black riots" rhetoric that modern racists use about BLM protests.
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Oct 24, 2023 23:53
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The biggest reason MLK is perceived as peaceful is because his contemporaries were Malcolm X and the Panthers who were very much not peaceful
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Oct 24, 2023 23:56
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An integrated one-state solution is the only option that doesn't involve expelling hundreds of thousands of settlers. It's not currently popular among Palestinians or Israelis right now but it's the only feasible one. One nation, 2+ states. There was a time when a two state solution was 100% possible. It was before Israel turned the West Bank into this: 
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Oct 25, 2023 00:00
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I said come in! posted:This answers a question i've had about a two state solution. I've always assumed that if one were to happen, Israel would make absolutely sure that Palestinians get completely hosed over and their land would result in Gaza 2.0. Making all of the land fall under one new state / country that everyone there shares equally and has the same rights and treatment, seems like the best solution? Who would lead that and what that would look like, would likely make the western super powers extremely nervous though, so its not likely to ever happen. A one state solution that stays democratic will no longer be a "homeland for the Jewish people" after the first election. It will never happen.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:07
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Twitter rando, and not saying it's not: https://twitter.com/land2thetiller/status/1716530884776546784 [click for thread] But is this post factually correct? I wasn't aware of Israel supporting SA apartheid, but it's certainly not surprising. Most I've seen is they didn't boycott them. Does anyone know anything about that and the other stuff? Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 00:10
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Jaxyon posted:Twitter rando, and not saying it's not: I dont know about support but it was rumored that Israel and SA were involved in each other's nuclear program.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:13
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HonorableTB posted:You are forgetting the reason it didn't happen in Japan is because the United States nuked the Japanese into submission to beat the Soviets from occupying it like they did North Korea and even then the USSR ended up with Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. There's no applicable analogue to this in the Palestine-Israel conflict. They are fundamentally different situations and not comparable. It seems like you're disagreeing with a specific example or the specifics within the example without addressing the point I'm making with my argument, because in regards to how it relates to that point yes it is entirely comparable, how the USSR occupied some islands and how Japan's colonies were liberated actually agrees with the point I'm making, because the comparable situation is Palestine no longer being occupied with some land being justifiably transferred while leaving presumably the greenline alone in this hypothetical. VitalSigns posted:White South Africans no longer got to have at least one state with borders they got to control after 1994, but South Africans still got to have a state with borders they control (many, well most, for the first time!) So its a little frustrating because understandable different posters have different positions and maybe if you haven't been following along maybe my argument sounds different to you without the context and position I am responding to. If your position is a One State Solution that hypothetically comes about via some combination of circumstances that by any reasonable standard has political equality, and was democratically achieved via the consent of the governed than of course that isn't genocide that would be ridiculous. I'm not arguing against the position of "It would be nice if Israel and Palestine agreed to a federal one state solution!" Because that would be ridiculous as both countries, just like West and East Germany agreed to the merge. And no doubt of course Israel doesn't seem interested in a two-state solution, it's engaging in a bloody occupation and not respecting the rights of Palestinians! Never did I say it was; but that's also not relevant to the argument being litigated, and regardless of what the current government, or state of Israel is doing, I don't think that justifies a One State solution achieved through violent means because that violence would necessitate an equal amount of tragedy and suffering. It is also needless, because it isn't needed to actually end the suffering of Palestinians, that's the entire crux of the argument occurring. Which is the position I am disagreeing with that specifically Adenoid Dan seems to have; with all the disagreement over what a "state" means it can be difficult to narrow down the specifics. That Israel existing, even if they packed up and left the West Bank tomorrow and stopped engaging in military action against Gaza, and just negotiated with Gaza state to state, would not be enough. This is my understanding that they can correct of course. Like when Germany joined the European Union and when previous West Germany joined NATO and the EEC, it did so as a nominally independent state that wasn't like merged into Poland; Germany wasn't forced to join the European community as a means to put an end to their aggression during WW2, nor was this the case with Japan. rscott posted:Israel has had a semi-official policy of creating facts on the ground to make a viable two state solution, i.e one that grants Palestine full and complete sovereignty over a contiguous landmass that has the resources necessary to sustain the Palestinian people, impossible. Not really. This is again a problem of arguments waxing back in forth between hypothetical and based in reality; yes the reality is Israel is making it really difficult to make a 2 state solution sustainable, I don't agree that this justifies rhetoric insisting on a one state solution through violent means (especially rhetoric that justifies this by saying that even the original UN partition plan was illegitimate). And almost certainly I don't see under Hamas circumstances where a democratic, politically equitable one state solution occurring. If we're going to make arguments about Israel making a two state solution impossible as fact then its also fair to point out the factual basis that there's no way we can see a viable one state solution occurring with Hamas in the equation who are also working on creating facts on the ground to make that impossible. There's still circumstances in which Palestine has a viable country and are no longer suffering, it isn't the most 100% just set of circumstances but is infinitely more likely to occur than what Adenoid Dan is proposing. Neurolimal posted:An integrated one-state solution is the only option that doesn't involve expelling hundreds of thousands of settlers. It's not currently popular among Palestinians or Israelis right now but it's the only feasible one. One nation, 2+ states. As a trial run, Israel could always agree to hand over the settlements to Palestinian administration with the promises the rights of the settlers are respected and see how that goes; or alternatively the tax income granted to the PA with the agreement of no more settlements and all the agreement that the land can no longer be traded or sold between Israeli citizens but only to citizens of the PA. There's lots of imaginative solutions where two separate states are maintained and they compromise over the disputed matters and kick the can down the road. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 00:16
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Jaxyon posted:Twitter rando, and not saying it's not: They didn't take part in the international sanctions. They always abstaining from UN votes against South African apartheid. They were close military allies, with Israel providing aid and supplies to South African proxies in their wars. They provided their Jericho ballistic missiles to SA and were rumored to have been helping them develop nuclear weapons to use them with.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:31
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Willo567 posted:What kind of weapon would cause something like that? Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Possibly it's 'just' talking about WP, maybe something chemical. Seems like it's going to be best to wait for a more independent source to comment on it. I assume Al Jazeera Arabic is a reliable reporting source, but the video was just a local government official giving an open air press conference. those descriptions are consistent with what have been reported as potential DIME wounds by medical aid workers from other times IDF has bombed Gaza. DIME weapons were designed to have a limited lethal range by virtue of not having shrapnel that could fly 200+ meters since their filler turns into extremely hot, fast powder: https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/journals/jps/v38i3/f_0017734_15203.pdf posted:Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME) a more in depth description of the wounds from a Norwegian doctor, Mads Gilbert, which sound very similar to what Salama Marouf's described: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/israel-firing-experimental-weapons-gazas-civilians-say-doctors posted:Gilbert first witnessed the effects of DIME munitions on the human body during Operation Summer Rains, Israel’s 2006 months-long attack on the Gaza Strip that killed more than four hundred Palestinians. “Large chunks of flesh, of muscles were cut away. We didn’t find any shrapnel and [the wounds] were delivering a strange fume. Gradually we came to understand these must have been the new DIME weapons developed by the US Air Force together with the Israelis,” he said.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:33
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Neurolimal posted:An integrated one-state solution is the only option that doesn't involve expelling hundreds of thousands of settlers. That might end up happening regardless if the settlers continue to inject pure Rhodesia particles in their the brains and throw some kind of violent tantrum when PR reasons make Israel restrain them even a bit.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:52
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Nm there is no point
Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 01:05
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Adenoid Dan posted:They are taking the stance that all of Israel is stolen land, which is unambiguously true. The "legality" of it does not change that one iota. The U.N. voted to partition the territory, which up to that point had never been independent into two separate states, based on the two dominant ethnic/religious groups in the area, Jews and Arabs. Claiming all of Israel is stolen land from the Palestinians, when there have been Jewish people living there since pre-Roman times, is propagandistic.
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Oct 25, 2023 01:22
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Raenir Salazar posted:Which is the position I am disagreeing with that specifically Adenoid Dan seems to have; with all the disagreement over what a "state" means it can be difficult to narrow down the specifics. That Israel existing, even if they packed up and left the West Bank tomorrow and stopped engaging in military action against Gaza, and just negotiated with Gaza state to state, would not be enough. This is my understanding that they can correct of course. The original partition plan was a gross violation of the principles of self-determination upon which the UN was founded; its only claim to legitimacy is the right of conquest. I would not argue that violent reunification would be justified, and yet, it would also be every bit as justified as the original partition. You seem to think that because the UN voted on it, the original transfer of land was peaceful and legal and it was the Palestinians who resorted to violence out of the blue... but how exactly do you think transferring land against the will of a majority of its inhabitants is supposed to work? There was never any way that Arab-majority areas were going to willingly submit to being ruled over as second class citizens and it's not reasonable to blame them for reacting as literally any people on the planet would. Had the original partition plan stuck more closely to strictly Jewish-majority and uninhabited areas, then this conversation would be very different. But as it is, no, begrudgingly granting sovereignty to the West Bank and Gaza does not wipe the slate clean. It is "enough" in a practical sense, in that rolling back the clock to 1948 is impossible at this point without compounding tragedy upon tragedy, but the 1967 borders will always be a moral stain.
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Oct 25, 2023 01:29
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:The U.N. voted to partition the territory, which up to that point had never been independent into two separate states, based on the two dominant ethnic/religious groups in the area, Jews and Arabs. Claiming all of Israel is stolen land from the Palestinians, when there have been Jewish people living there since pre-Roman times, is propagandistic. Counterpoint: according to the UN, The UN posted:In November 1947, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under a UN administration. The Arab world rejected the plan, arguing that it was unfair and violated the UN Charter. Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. The situation escalated into a full-blown war in 1948, with the end of the British Mandate and the departure of British forces, the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and the entry of neighbouring Arab armies. The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population.
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Oct 25, 2023 01:35
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Arafat Yasser Hamdan martyred in Israeli prison Wild timing & contrast with this morning.
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Oct 25, 2023 01:40
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The IRA did things that were in hindsight looked at as counter productive. Same thing in South Africa. And elsewhere. Random civilian attacks usually being the main one. Internal resistance via force has only worked in… Haiti Revolution? Where they outnumbered their oppressors 10:1 One can agree and support with peoples who deserve self determination while being critical of their methods to get there. That’s not to say that force isn’t required- I’m no pacifist and don’t believe that. But you have to play politics because that’s how the world works. Shaming anyone who doesn’t simply call for immediate peace is being ignorant and irrelevant. Imagine if Hamas spent all their rockets and time simply blowing up the walls and otherwise minding their own business? Internally Israel might make a stink, but internationally it becomes clear they’re in a cage. Which most people worldwide don’t really understand. Leftists and rightists want to shut down discussion because it’s about power for the extremists. Discussing the issue might accidentally inform people who make their own decisions and that makes it harder for extremists to get their way. Without mandatory voting, a neutral press, and an involved populace I’m not sure how that changes beyond accelerationism. The boomers who support the genocide and didn’t pay attention the last ten fifteen years are dying off and are on their last legs. But until then they control it all. The hospital bombers is a pointless investigation. Israel issued warnings they were going to do it and to evacuate. If I were to call a bomb threat I’d be prosecuted for it. Israel is no different. My point really was that the adults in charge there ignored the warnings and let people assemble en masse instead of taking the tyrants serious on their threats. Instead they effectively martyr those civilians. The old world might look fondly on martyrs, but the new world doesn’t. Look, I understand making that call is not an easy one to make and not everyone is capable of doing so. Most people don’t understand how they will react in a crisis until they’re in one, no amount of preparation can prepare one other than crisis itself. Israel is going to attack the other hospitals. It’s coming. Call it callous all you want, I don’t believe in martyrs being beneficial and that’s how I see it. Live another day in the greatest numbers you can keep given the immediate situation at hand.
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Oct 25, 2023 02:04
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Muscle Tracer posted:Counterpoint: according to the UN, Yes, no one is denying that atrocities and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs by Zionists (and vice versa) happened during the war, just as ethnic cleansing of Jews following the war (First from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, later from most of the Muslim world) happened. Would those atrocities have happened had the original partition plan been accepted and no war resulted? Counterfactuals are hard to prove. But those atrocities don't make illegitimate the original plan to create two states for two ethnic groups that during British rule and a huge wave of Jewish migration became increasingly antagonistic toward each other.
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Oct 25, 2023 02:19
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Yes, no one is denying that atrocities and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs by Zionists (and vice versa) happened during the war, just as ethnic cleansing of Jews following the war (First from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, later from most of the Muslim world) happened. Would those atrocities have happened had the original partition plan been accepted and no war resulted? Counterfactuals are hard to prove. What legitimate argument exists for the creation of an ethnostate that isn't disproven by every example of an ethnostate that has ever existed? The British did this constantly and it just created a bunch of enemy-for-life nation states. Crushing diversity and entrenching power along ethnic lines doesn't seem to have had great outcomes for anyone who has tried it. Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 02:29
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:The British did this constantly and it just created a bunch of enemy-for-life nation states. Crushing diversity and entrenching power along ethnic lines doesn't seem to have had great outcomes for anyone who has tried it. Yeah, Britain never found a colonial problem that couldn't be solved by drawing lines on a map. And not only was it not actually conducive to peace, Britain usually knew this and did it anyways, so they could play politics with the ones atop valuable resources. It's objectively not something you do unless you want to cultivate ethnosupremacists. And in the case of Zionism, the massive paper trail of the insane weirdos begging every major country to give them a Jewish superstate made it pretty clear how dumping a ton of Jewish refugees on top of Palestine was going to go. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 02:42
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Neurolimal posted:Arafat Yasser Hamdan martyred in Israeli prison So the take away from this is because Israel prisons are way over capacity currently, and as an act of revenge for October 7, they are torturing and executing Palestinian prisoners, an act which was made legal by a law that passed earlier this year.
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Oct 25, 2023 02:52
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Yes, no one is denying that atrocities and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs by Zionists (and vice versa) happened during the war, just as ethnic cleansing of Jews following the war (First from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, later from most of the Muslim world) happened. Would those atrocities have happened had the original partition plan been accepted and no war resulted? Counterfactuals are hard to prove. In your prior post you claimed that the land currently controlled by the Israeli government could not be said to have been stolen from Palestinians. I was refuting that claim: half of Palestinians had their homes stolen in the immediate conception of Israel.
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Oct 25, 2023 02:53
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Yes, no one is denying that atrocities and ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs by Zionists (and vice versa) happened during the war, just as ethnic cleansing of Jews following the war (First from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, later from most of the Muslim world) happened. Would those atrocities have happened had the original partition plan been accepted and no war resulted? Counterfactuals are hard to prove. True, but it can certainly be argued that the blatantly disparate favoritism towards the overall minority at the expense of the overall majority did make the plan illegitimate, at least in execution. Engorged Pedipalps posted:What legitimate argument exists for the creation of an ethnostate that isn't disproven by every example of an ethnostate that has ever existed? The argument is that the creation of a Jewish ethnostate was necessary to guarantee the safety of the Jewish people, since other states had failed to do so. Including, certainly, Palestine under British mandate. And while early Palestinian violence against Jews can be characterized as a backlash against Zionist attempts to build a foreign ethnostate, this was in large part because it ran contrary to Palestinian nationalism's desire for their own ethnostate. It's been an ugly issue since even before Israel was founded and it's not clear that there was any solution in 1948 that would have satisfied both sides' desire for self-determination and security, but I think Britain and the UN can certainly be faulted for not even trying to pretend to weigh Palestine's interests on par with Israel's. the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 02:55
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:What legitimate argument exists for the creation of an ethnostate that isn't disproven by every example of an ethnostate that has ever existed? The U.N. believed it had a legitimate reason in providing the Jews their own state after the Holocaust, as the Zionist argument was if they had their own state, their would've been at least one place Jews could have fled to. At the time, it was quite in vogue that every ethnicity deserved their own state, and after WWII the borders better be damned near-clean, hence all the ethnic cleansing/population transfers in Eastern Europe post-WWII. Hell, even up until recently (Still today?) the solution most Western countries look to for conflicts is to give fighting ethnic groups their own state. The West supported Kosovo this century, Russia all those little Georgian breakaway statelets. Not justifying or agreeing with this, just saying that argument is very popular with many people in the world. As several posters mentioned earlier (much, much earlier) in the thread, there are multiple (A majority even of countries?) ethnostates in the world (or at least states where one ethnicity or religion dominates the political, cultural, and social fabric of that state) that do heinous things all the time, but the solution to those crimes suggested is almost never "dissolve this state/nation, it's illegitimate and stolen". In the China thread here, plenty of calls for a new government or overthrowing of Xi Xinping, few calls for the abolition of China or a new state itself to replace it. And yes, European colonial powers in the 1800s inflamed or even created many ethnic divisions in their colonies, although it should not be pretended that things were always utopian or even tolerable between majorities and minorities in pre-colonial areas. When the Ottoman Empire sought to give more rights to religious minorities, they inspired several massacres of Jews and Christians, without any help from Europe in that regard.
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Oct 25, 2023 02:59
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Cuttlefush posted:those descriptions are consistent with what have been reported as potential DIME wounds by medical aid workers from other times IDF has bombed Gaza. DIME weapons were designed to have a limited lethal range by virtue of not having shrapnel that could fly 200+ meters since their filler turns into extremely hot, fast powder: Inventing a weapon that gives cancer to the survivors is twisted on a level of its own
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Oct 25, 2023 03:00
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Neurolimal posted:An integrated one-state solution is the only option that doesn't involve expelling hundreds of thousands of settlers. It's not currently popular among Palestinians or Israelis right now but it's the only feasible one. One nation, 2+ states. Hard to see how a one state solution is possible when even Palestinian Israelis are treated as second class citizens, reinforced by recent amendments and laws by the Israelis. I've been doing some research on discriminatory laws against Palestinian Israelis (i..e Palestinians that lived in Israeli territory between 1945 and 1967). Nominally considered Israeli citizens, what they have to deal with is upsetting in its scope and cruelty. Here's a list of some of the laws: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index Plus at anytime their lands can be confiscated by newly created exclusively Jewish municipalities, towns, and kibbutzes, which are allowed to exclude anyone that doesn't fit the "social-economic" mold they are looking for, meaning anyone not Jewish, their homes demolished, their rights violated, any social welfare ripped away (like their kids are denied benefits if their parents are arrested for a security offense, that's a loving law). And guess what? They have segregated loving schools. They reinvented American segregation. Here's a paper about it. quote:Data came from visits to 26 schools of all types and levels; interviews with students, teachers, administrators, and specialists; interviews with staff of the Education Ministry; and reviews of official statistical information. Results revealed that nearly 1 in 4 of Israel’s 1.6 million school children received education in a public school system wholly separate from the majority. Their schools differed significantly in quality from the public schools serving Israel’s majority Jewish population in that they offered fewer facilities and educational opportunities than were offered other Israeli children. Palestinian Arab children attended schools with larger classes and fewer teachers than did those in the Jewish school system, with some children having to travel long distances to reach the nearest school. Some Arab schools lacked basic learning facilities, including libraries, computers, science laboratories, and recreation space. Palestinian Arab children with disabilities are particularly marginalized. Palestinian Arab students dropped out of school at three times the rate of Jewish students and were less likely to pass national examinations for a high school diploma. Few attended a university. Israeli government authorities have acknowledged the gaps between Arab and Jewish education, but they have failed to equalize the two systems. The analysis concluded that addressing the cumulative effect of generations of educational disadvantage upon Israel’s Palestinian Arab citizens requires major new initiatives by the government of Israel in recognition of its obligations under national and international law. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/second-class-discrimination-against-palestinian-arab-children Since Israel has explicitly written into their laws that Jewish supremacy is the goal of the Israeli state, they can do this and whatever else they want as long as the people involved aren't Jewish. E2: The only way forward from my position is that Israel as it currently stands, an explicitly settler colonialist country, cannot exist anymore and exist with current human norms and ideas of equality and freedom. That will take an international effort, akin to at least what happened to South Africa. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 03:30
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I said come in! posted:This answers a question i've had about a two state solution. I've always assumed that if one were to happen, Israel would make absolutely sure that Palestinians get completely hosed over and their land would result in Gaza 2.0. Making all of the land fall under one new state / country that everyone there shares equally and has the same rights and treatment, seems like the best solution? Who would lead that and what that would look like, would likely make the western super powers extremely nervous though, so its not likely to ever happen. i don't think the western superpowers are anywhere near as important in this equation as the absolute and total unwillingness of Israel to accept the end of a Jewish-nationalist state that allows other ethnicities and religions to exist at its sufferance
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Oct 25, 2023 03:50
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Shageletic posted:Hard to see how a one state solution is possible when even Palestinian Israelis are treated as second class citizens, reinforced by recent amendments and laws by the Israelis. And the second you mention any of this to the vast majority of western populations you will immediately be labeled an anti-semite and reviled, thanks to the efforts of Israeli-funded PR and lobbying campaigns
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Oct 25, 2023 04:08
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Google Jeb Bush posted:i don't think the western superpowers are anywhere near as important in this equation as the absolute and total unwillingness of Israel to accept the end of a Jewish-nationalist state that allows other ethnicities and religions to exist at its sufferance there is a single western super power that is absolutely vital to that equation as Israel's most important ally and security guarantor
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Oct 25, 2023 04:26
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NYTimes digital analysis is being shared right now, thread: https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1717015483843576248 They're joining Channel 4, AJE, and preliminary findings for Forensic Architecture in ruling out a misfired rocket. They don't confidently say "Israel did this", but it's disqualifying the most publicized bit of evidence in Israel's favor short of the blatantly fake audio. It's also the first major US news org I've seen acknowledge that Israel shelled the building prior...which feels like journalistic malpractice to be honest but at least it's there.
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Oct 25, 2023 04:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:there is a single western super power that is absolutely vital to that equation as Israel's most important ally and security guarantor Yeah at the very least the U.S. seems to get a lot out of its relationship with Israel, what that is I really don't understand exactly (weapons I guess), but its enough to support genocide and ethnic cleansing over it.
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Oct 25, 2023 04:48
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I said come in! posted:Yeah at the very least the U.S. seems to get a lot out of its relationship with Israel, what that is I really don't understand exactly (weapons I guess), but its enough to support genocide and ethnic cleansing over it. They are the instrument to enforce American policy and shared interests in the Middle East. That's what the US gets out of it. Israel is the only really friendly government in the region (and even they have attacked US assets lol). They provide a check and balance on Iran, Syria, and Lebanon as well.
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Oct 25, 2023 05:04
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I mean that firm in Israel has the most advanced iPhone hack in the world. Plus basically being an aircraft carrier for the US
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Oct 25, 2023 05:06
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And also most of those billions in military aid are earmarked for US suppliers, which means funnelling tax dollars into the pockets of Lockheed Martin execs and their lobbyists.
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Oct 25, 2023 05:10
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E2M2 posted:I mean that firm in Israel has the most advanced iPhone hack in the world. Plus basically being an aircraft carrier for the US lol this one? https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-us-state-department-phones-hacked-with-israeli-company-spyware-sources-2021-12-03/ Looking into it deeper on Google, Israel seems to be a hot bed for cyber attacks and hacking.
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Oct 25, 2023 05:10
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I said come in! posted:Yeah at the very least the U.S. seems to get a lot out of its relationship with Israel, what that is I really don't understand exactly (weapons I guess), but its enough to support genocide and ethnic cleansing over it. The official stance is that the US considers Israel to be a firm ally and views it as an outpost of and vital staging ground for American influence and other efforts in the middle east. Previously this reasoning usually included references to Israel as a rare democracy in the region, though you don't hear that part as much any more. At this point the first reason remains significant, but Israel's roll as an intelligence gathering heavyweight (ostensibly anyways, plz don't mention what happened two weeks ago) is a major factor now, too. Personally I think the US pisses away so much potential influence and good will by choosing Israel of all countries to ally with unconditionally and that Israel's policies are incredibly counter productive to their own security, but eh Israel is apparently some immutable ally so idk if there's any real chance of that ever changing.
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Oct 25, 2023 05:14
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Neurolimal posted:Arafat Yasser Hamdan martyred in Israeli prison al mayadeen is not necessarily a reliable source for details, as one can perhaps expect from the martyrdom language as usual, i'm not really equipped to evaluate their alleged primary sources or their translated takes; qadura fares does seem to unofficially involved with Fatah's treaty-mandated prison oversight but his position also rapidly gets weird and confusing i think i saw someone digging into al mayadeen a bit earlier but I don't have it to hand
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Oct 25, 2023 05:14
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 05:17
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