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HootTheOwl posted:Yes Likud and Bibi are. But the sentence before that, which you omitted, didn't say Likud and Bibi doesn't feel safe. It said Jews. It is Jews who are feeling the pressure in that post. Fortunately Israel does not represent the entirety of the Jewish diaspora, and one of Zionism's tenets is centering whiteness as a core component of the movement.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:35
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:36
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: What are these comments, and why are they pro genocide? E: I can give you the same, except it's Zionist supporters of Israel calling for the death of protestors calling for peace https://www.instagram.com/p/CyWMQ7tOvX5/ This article goes into the massively angry response to peaceful pro Palestinian and pro ceasefire demonstrations: https://jewishcurrents.org/a-mccarthyite-backlash-against-pro-palestine-speech Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 16:40
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the holy poopacy posted:And those underlying fears are a problem largely perpetuated by the actions of those same egomaniac leaders and aren't going to change until Israel abandons the policies that deliberately stoke those fears. Saying that Israel won't change course until those fears go away isn't necessarily an endorsement of that course but it is an implicit admission that the status quo is going to persist indefinitely, to the general detriment of all involved. I choose to believe that democratic change is possible, especially after the dramatic failure of Israel's strongman security policy, but I admit that I don't have much evidence for this position beyond hopes and dreams. You can choose to believe that democracy alone can just fix it. Look at the USA where Biden coherently respects the wishes of its peoples.. Focus on undermining what gives the bad leadership its power. Also what US foreign policy has been there for a while…Except when push comes to shove like this month, Biden is a feckless neocon husk. Two state solution can work, if both states can be given self determination with moderating leadership. It’s two states because to start this solution, each state needs to not fear immediate takeover from the other ethnicity because their own Hitler takes over. There’s no modernization without secularism. If the US pushed Israel away from Israeli ethnocentrism there’d be a path to two state solution. Without that you get the barbarism Israel is committing now. British and then US neocons have undermined every secular push on the Arab side to keep the area unstable for a century. Blindly supporting Palestine is justifying just an alternative ethnocentric take though, which is not helping win any moderates. People lately have been taking the excite the extremes and make everything black and white political discourse as a way to excite voters to get them to show up the polls and applying the concept to how to actually change the majority viewpoints within a country. And unless that changes, neocons are going to continue to stay in charge. You have to remove Israel’s enabler, Biden. Democrats are too afraid to implode like the Republicans have to do this, but they need to. Where are the Bernie Bros when you need them?
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Oct 25, 2023 16:41
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BUUNNI posted:Fortunately Israel does not represent the entirety of the Jewish diaspora, and one of Zionism's tenets is centering whiteness as a core component of the movement. Yeah, the fact that Ethiopian Jews don't really have a place in Israel makes the argument for Israel existing pretty thin to me, since nonwhite/non-Mediterranean/non-european Jews should have the same rights to the holy land as everyone else It's literally just a white ethnostate with extra steps and it feels gross to support that in the context of American progressive politics. Israel is everything we are trying to reform or tear down in American society.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:49
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:There's a perfectly reasonable one state solution This proposal is no more modest or sensible than eating the Irish. Ethnic cleansing does not justify ethnic cleansing in return. The goal should be to get Israel to stop and to participate in good faith the peace process and no further. The people living there have just as much right to live there in Israel within their internationally recognized borders as Palestinians do to live in their recognized borders. Two wrongs don't make a right, increasing misery and suffering doesn't end the current suffering, and this just feeds Israeli narratives of "they really do want to drive us all into the sea!" Which you apparently literally want to do by force.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:00
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Yeah, the fact that Ethiopian Jews don't really have a place in Israel makes the argument for Israel existing pretty thin to me, since nonwhite/non-Mediterranean/non-european Jews should have the same rights to the holy land as everyone else There is evidence they did much worse things to Ethiopian Jews than that 
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Oct 25, 2023 17:00
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 17:00
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I think we can pretty conclusively say that Turkey's attempt to "become European" is now over and done with: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkeys-erdogan-says-hamas-is-not-terrorist-organisation-2023-10-25/ quote:"Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, it is a liberation group, 'mujahideen' waging a battle to protect its lands and people," he told lawmakers from his ruling AK Party, using an Arabic word denoting those who fight for their faith. Erdogan just came out and called Hamas a liberation organization, apparently, and called Europe and the US on their double-standards and hypocrisy regarding how they're treating Israel-Palestine vs. how they're treating Ukraine-Russia. While Turkey's never called Hamas a terrorist-group, actively acknowledging them as an armed resistance/liberation organization is a pretty big step. And I guess that's going to sour those 'excellent relations' that Turkey and Israel also allegedly have.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:02
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Neurolimal posted:This has been an annoying part of discourse elsewhere, explaining that "martyred" for muslims essentially means "they wont be forgotten/they will not have died for nothing" and not "this was a paid hamas operative seeking to make Jews look bad". That's what 'martyred' means for everyone. Christians have holy days dedicated to Christian martyrs. It's only when a Muslim says it that people suddenly have a problem understanding what the word means. *Roman consul coming back from ordering a massacre, hearing Christians pray for their martyrs* "I am literally shaking rn. I'm asking that everyone tone down their aggressive body language because Latin bodies are feeling very unsafe in this space"
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Oct 25, 2023 17:05
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: The latter sentence is pretty strong to post without a source. Anti-semitism absolutely does exist, and it is a major problem in many areas. Crimes against Jewish people will definitely be higher right now than usual. However, questionable/anecdotal reports of Jewish people feeling "unsafe" have been weaponised by Israel and her political allies to bring down politicians, and in recent weeks non-political figures, who are critical of the state of Israel, or just pro-human rights. Israel and its shills go to considerable efforts to conflate Jewish & Israel. So they can use anti-semitism as an attack against valid criticism. Maybe your first anecdote is representative of a genuine feeling amongst the general Jewish population of American universities. Maybe it's just the messaging of zionists playing the usual dirty game of libel. The problem with opening the pandoras box of using anti-semitism as an all-purpose political cudgel was always going to be that it harms the fight against actual anti-semitism and induces a boy who cried wolf response at times like this where it is being ubiquitously employed to silence criticism of Israel. And it bears repeating, whether it is zionists or normal Jewish people, feeling nebulously 'unsafe' is nothing compared to what is happening to Palestinians in the occupied territories, the anguish of their diaspora families, or the people who are actively losing their educations and livelihoods because they dare suggest that maybe dropping a thousand pounds of boom per day on 2 million innocent people is unkind.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:07
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TLM3101 posted:I think we can pretty conclusively say that Turkey's attempt to "become European" is now over and done with: Turkey gave up on European integration well over a decade ago after they realized they'd never be admitted to the EU or considered "one of them." There's never been any love lost between Erdogan and Israel, but Erdogan is (kind of) a shrewd statesman, and sees which way the wind is blowing in the region. Before 10/7 the geopolitical order in the Near East meant cozying up to Israel was the best move; now, with mass demonstrations against Israel's aggression happening (and, importantly, being permitted) across the region he knows it's time to switch sides. He also knows Turkey's value to NATO so he's not going to be worried about too much blowback from the rest of the West.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:07
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BUUNNI posted:There is evidence they did much worse things to Ethiopian Jews than that I am afraid to ask. I've read a short bit about their history in Ethiopia, and their existence there is literally illegal and many have to hide by pretending to be Christian. Israel wouldn't even accept them until about 1975, and when they did finally let them in, they are forced to assimilate into Israeli culture and customs and forget much of their own culture.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:13
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Erdogan never forgot that the west hedged their bets against him the last time his position was threatened, and were he not one of the rare competent politicians* in 2023 he'd probably be a lot more hostile to the west's desires than he is. The fact that he thinks it's safe to publicly call out Israel & smother ties is probably a bad sign for Israel with-regards-to the other regional actors. It can't be overestimated just how much damage this aimless rage campaign has caused. *Note that this is distinct from "moral". VitalSigns posted:That's what 'martyred' means for everyone. Christians have holy days dedicated to Christian martyrs. It's only when a Muslim says it that people suddenly have a problem understanding what the word means. I'm soft on some of the more hapless people spooked by it, if only because Martyred isn't used as often as simply "Martyr", and both carry, in the West, implications of intentionally serving a cause. It's still ignorance, though. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 17:16
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Judgy Fucker posted:Turkey gave up on European integration well over a decade ago after they realized they'd never be admitted to the EU or considered "one of them." All true - and I regret not pointing out that Turkey gave up on Europe back in 09. However, since this kicked off, at least two other posters have made references to Israel and Turkey having 'great' relations, and just recently about Turkey being on 'the edge of trying to be European', both of which is, uhm. Stretching the truth a bit further than the circumstances warrant. I didn't want to explicitly post about posters, so I instead succumbed to sarcasm, for which I apologize. The point still stands though. It's bleakly amusing to me, though, that if it is one thing where Erdogan might fly too close to the sun, it's throwing public support behind Hamas, especially with the US being all in on Israel's side. That's not going to be forgotten any time soon, because a lot of the "core" NATO countries are absolutely loving myopic on Israel, and they might just be willing to exact a price for it down the line, no matter how valuable Turkey's position is. It's one hell of a needle to try to thread while juggling a war to the north of him as well.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:25
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: Could you clarify what you mean by "pro-genocide against Israel" please, and provide a source of this?
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Oct 25, 2023 17:26
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: Anecdotally I've heard a lot of Palestinians, even of the left persuasion, say they feel incredibly unsafe in Gaza. The number of incidents where Israeli groups are just parroting pro-genocide talking points against Palestinians is insane.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:39
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: Martyrs would apply to murdered civilians btw
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Oct 25, 2023 17:45
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I said come in! posted:I am afraid to ask. I've read a short bit about their history in Ethiopia, and their existence there is literally illegal and many have to hide by pretending to be Christian. Israel wouldn't even accept them until about 1975, and when they did finally let them in, they are forced to assimilate into Israeli culture and customs and forget much of their own culture. The women were given depo provera either disguised as flu shots or under threat of not being admitted to Israel. That's what jumps out in my mind. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel
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Oct 25, 2023 17:45
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I said come in! posted:I am afraid to ask. I've read a short bit about their history in Ethiopia, and their existence there is literally illegal and many have to hide by pretending to be Christian. Israel wouldn't even accept them until about 1975, and when they did finally let them in, they are forced to assimilate into Israeli culture and customs and forget much of their own culture. They're probably referring to the a scandal a while back where a number of Ethiopian Jewish women were found to be receiving regular contraceptive shots without their knowledge or consent for extended periods of time. There's no particular evidence that it was an intentional state policy of ethnic cleansing, but it was still severe neglect with substantial consequences, and as far as I know it was never revealed just who wrote all those Depo-Provera prescriptions in the first place.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:00
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Main Paineframe posted:They're probably referring to the a scandal a while back where a number of Ethiopian Jewish women were found to be receiving regular contraceptive shots without their knowledge or consent for extended periods of time. There's no particular evidence that it was an intentional state policy of ethnic cleansing, but it was still severe neglect with substantial consequences, and as far as I know it was never revealed just who wrote all those Depo-Provera prescriptions in the first place. I'm not entirely sure I feel comfortable with eugenics being described as "neglect", severe or otherwise.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:05
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Neurolimal posted:
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Oct 25, 2023 18:06
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Main Paineframe posted:as far as I know it was never revealed just who wrote all those Depo-Provera prescriptions in the first place. this is where it becomes fair to assume it was a deliberate policy
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Oct 25, 2023 18:12
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VitalSigns posted:I'm always soft on hapless people I'm just noting that it's not some obscure word, everyone hears about martyrs and it's normally not a big deal and they're objects of sympathy, until an official enemy says it and then the media frames it as a scary snarl word that means 'killer' or something The usage of the word martyr is appeasement to religion. Appeasing religious extremists is why we’re in this mess. It’s a bad move for the press. I take flack for arguing that the doctors should tell people to evacuate a hospital the IDF has repeatedly said they are going to bomb otherwise they’re effectively supporting Hamas. Calling them martyred instead of massacred is effectively proving that point correct.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:16
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I take flack for arguing that the doctors should tell people to evacuate a hospital the IDF has repeatedly said they are going to bomb otherwise they’re effectively supporting Hamas. Calling them martyred instead of massacred is effectively proving that point correct. I'm very, very stupid. To help me understand, could you walk me through the logic behind this statement step by step?
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Oct 25, 2023 18:20
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Israel just murdered the entire family of Al Jazeera's Bureau chief in Gaza, just hours after the US reached out to the outlet asking them to tone down their coverage of the conflict. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-al-jazeera-kills-family-gaza-bureau-chief
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Oct 25, 2023 18:22
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We're down to "Our tragic child martyrs, their evil terrorist martyrs."
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Oct 25, 2023 18:25
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Judgy Fucker posted:I'm very, very stupid. To help me understand, could you walk me through the logic behind this statement step by step? See this gem from yesterday https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3754814&userid=230963&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post535480387
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Oct 25, 2023 18:28
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Main Paineframe posted:They're probably referring to the a scandal a while back where a number of Ethiopian Jewish women were found to be receiving regular contraceptive shots without their knowledge or consent for extended periods of time. There's no particular evidence that it was an intentional state policy of ethnic cleansing, but it was still severe neglect with substantial consequences, and as far as I know it was never revealed just who wrote all those Depo-Provera prescriptions in the first place. Jesus, is this one of those things where Israel learned from America or the other way around? So many similarities.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:33
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Yeah, the fact that Ethiopian Jews don't really have a place in Israel makes the argument for Israel existing pretty thin to me, since nonwhite/non-Mediterranean/non-european Jews should have the same rights to the holy land as everyone else That's bullshit. Less than 50% of Israeli Jews are of European descent.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:36
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kiminewt posted:That's bullshit. Less than 50% of Israeli Jews are of European descent. Not really the most effective argument when we're taking about an apartheid state to be honest.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:38
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 18:40
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:this is where it becomes fair to assume it was a deliberate policy The problem is that Depo-Provera is a temporary contraceptive. It lasts three months before they have to get a new shot. Somebody in the transit camps was putting them on Depo-Provera, sometimes through pressure and sometimes through outright deception, and that's definitely cause for serious concern. But once they reached Israel, they had to willingly go on their own to get shots four times a year from random doctors all over Israel, all of whom honestly thought that the women had given their free and informed consent to receiving the shots (though there was a significant language barrier that doctors made little effort to overcome). That's not generally the kind of thing you see from an intentional campaign of ethnic cleansing. The fact that it lasted as long as it did was a testament to how thoroughly neglected the Ethiopian Jewish immigrants were in Israeli society, but it was still only a matter of time before enough people were talking to Ethiopian Jews that somebody noticed.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:41
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kiminewt posted:That's bullshit. Less than 50% of Israeli Jews are of European descent. White supremacy isn't a philosophy based on facts and actual genealogies. It's based on adhering to a set of created cultural signifiers to create a inferior class below them. This article is pretty pertinent imo  E: link here https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/10/24/internal-wix-chat-encouraged-staff-to-support-israels-narrative-in-hamas-conflict/
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Oct 25, 2023 18:41
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mannerup posted:But our martyrs are cheeky and fun! Yeah, and their martyrs are cruel and tragic, which... makes them not really martyrs at all... ~eeevil martyrs!~. I swear to Allah I'll pistol whip the next guy who says martyrs. I will say it's a very funny conversation when you remember that everyone who died in the Holocaust is considered a martyr. Darkly funny and shows an incredible amount of ignorance on those who act like it's a big scary word used by terrorists. But funny.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:42
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Gumball Gumption posted:We're down to "Our tragic child martyrs, their evil terrorist martyrs." It's obviously a language/tradition divide. I don't imagine people who died in 9/11 attacks could be called martyrs by mainstream media in the West. From what I see on the internet, however, in context of Palestine, the word has acquired the meaning of a victim/casualty in general, not just someone who dies actively supporting the cause. In English, and in (post-)Christian cultures in general, a martyr is understood to be someone who died due to adhering to certain ideals or religion. Christians wouldn't consider someone a Christian martyr, if they died in a car accident or were killed by an oppressive regime but weren't a Christian. Plus people are probably more exposed to the word being used in the name of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, so the confusion is at least somewhat understandable.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:42
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:The usage of the word martyr is appeasement to religion. Appeasing religious extremists is why we’re in this mess. It’s a bad move for the press. This is not correct. The word martyr is someone who is killed for their beliefs or their cause, which often are, but don't have to be religious. John Brown was a martyr for the abolitionist cause, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were martyrs of the Civil Rights movement, Emily Davidson martyred herself for women's suffrage, etc Mid-Life Crisis posted:I take flack for arguing that the doctors should tell people to evacuate a hospital the IDF has repeatedly said they are going to bomb otherwise they’re effectively supporting Hamas. Calling them martyred instead of massacred is effectively proving that point correct. Also wow all these three day MARTIAL LAW punishments for piddly bullshit, but libeling doctors without borders with accusations that they're getting their patients and themselves killed on purpose is a-ok apparently VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 18:44
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Unlike Israelis, Gazans can eat cheeseburgers and (beef) pepperoni on their pizza
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Oct 25, 2023 18:45
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Shageletic posted:White supremacy isn't a philosophy based on facts and actual genealogies. It's based on adhering to a set of created cultural signifiers to create a inferior class below them. You don't have to be white to be a racist or a supermacist. It's just a different thing and trying to fit all problems into America shaped holes is reductive. There is a huge Jewish supremacy problem in Israel, I'll agree with that. But just because people want to display westernism doesn't make it white supremacy.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:46
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Yall are overthinking it. Westerners think anyone saying the word "martyr" while brown is a terrorist.
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