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mannerup posted:its unquestionable that there is a major disproportion in media coverage where Gaza gets passive language used in articles (e.g. 'died' instead of 'killed') which is a clear indictment of how they view Palestinian lives. I think a big reason that October 7 has received so much disproportionate coverage is the sheer scale and surprise of the attack alongside the sensational details making it catnip for tabloids. Yea there is obviously an optical asymmetry in militants with GoPros stapped to their heads going into kibbutzim and shooting at anything that moves vs. drone footage of a nameless building being bombed to smithereens with an unknown number of victims.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:32
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socialsecurity posted:So to be clear calling for violence against civilians is ok but the line is at genocide? They're saying that calling for reparations, evictions, et cetera, could be construed as "collective punishment," even if they do not fit the Geneva Convention definition of the war crime of collective punishment, and that they will not assume that people are referring to the latter unless the context of the post makes it clear that they are. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 01:32
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I can't help but see Iron Dome videos and think "do these people really think they're the ones under threat?" whilst they systematically lob arty in the other direction. If anyone needs collective punishment it's the British, because everything this country touches is a colossal gently caress up. Does anyone have any actual data from organisations providing it as to how much aid is actually getting into the region right now?
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Oct 27, 2023 01:44
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I'd argue that Reparations and Land Return aren't collective punishment, and rather are necessary for correcting what can be a long-rooted issue if left unaddressed. After the American Civil War ended and slaves were freed, they were not given reparations for their labor nor land, and to-this-day Black Americans are still disproportionately poorer than White Americans. In South Africa, Apartheid ended, but many of the White Africans were allowed to keep their land and wealth, and there's still a racial dichotomy in South Africa. Ending the oppression is only one necessary step in finding a long-term justice. Israel has, without question, profited immensely off Palestinian land, Palestinian crops, Palestinian water, Palestinian resources, Palestinian labor, Palestinian trade, Palestinian bodies. Hell, just through their very existence, Palestinians are monetized through the demonstration of Israeli security systems. Can there be malice behind Reparations and Land Return? Sure, but we've countless civilizations to point to, to demonstrate their necessity. A state solution that does not acknowledge and amend this is going to build the foundations for massive inequality between the two, which in turn can reintroduce resentment.
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Oct 27, 2023 02:03
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Neurolimal posted:I'd argue that Reparations and Land Return aren't collective punishment, and rather are necessary for correcting what can be a long-rooted issue if left unaddressed. After the American Civil War ended and slaves were freed, they were not given reparations for their labor nor land, and to-this-day Black Americans are still disproportionately poorer than White Americans. In South Africa, Apartheid ended, but many of the White Africans were allowed to keep their land and wealth, and there's still a racial dichotomy in South Africa. Ending the oppression is only one necessary step in finding a long-term justice. Israel has, without question, profited immensely off Palestinian land, Palestinian crops, Palestinian water, Palestinian resources, Palestinian labor, Palestinian trade, Palestinian bodies. Hell, just through their very existence, Palestinians are monetized through the demonstration of Israeli security systems. What do you mean by this?
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Oct 27, 2023 02:17
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Pvt. Parts posted:What do you mean by this? Israel exports its security expertise to a large number of countries, both training and technology. They're in a unique position where they have two significantly different models of hostile population centers full of people with no private rights under Israel's system, to which they can improvise upon. With the Palestinian Authority thoroughly captured, and Hamas only recently demonstrating the ability to deal with aerial threats (and even then, just helicopters), they have been able to do as they wish.
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Oct 27, 2023 02:26
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Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III’s Statement on U.S. Military Strikes in Eastern Syriaquote:Today, at President Biden’s direction, U.S. military forces conducted self-defense strikes on two facilities in eastern Syria used by Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and affiliated groups. These precision self-defense strikes are a response to a series of ongoing and mostly unsuccessful attacks against U.S. personnel in Iraq and Syria by Iranian-backed militia groups that began on October 17. As a result of these attacks, one U.S. citizen contractor died from a cardiac incident while sheltering in place; 21 U.S. personnel suffered from minor injuries, but all have since returned to duty. The President has no higher priority than the safety of U.S. personnel, and he directed today’s action to make clear that the United States will not tolerate such attacks and will defend itself, its personnel, and its interests. Gonna say something controversial here: I don't think it's a good idea to bomb the IRGC right now.
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Oct 27, 2023 03:28
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mannerup posted:violence against civilians is always wrong, don't see how Israel being founded through displacement, ethnic cleansing and committing atrocities against civilians makes that statement wrong or hypocritical unless they believe none of those events actually occurred The issue is when those people are silent when 350 Gaza children are obliterated in one night.
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Oct 27, 2023 03:29
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Israel is gonna be cracking down harder on the Palestinians they have access to i guess. https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1717676348519444667 Just seems like their military is not actually capable of invading Gaza and they have to look tough so they're doing the only ground war they actually can sustain.
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Oct 27, 2023 03:45
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hadji murad posted:The issue is when those people are silent when 350 Gaza children are obliterated in one night. So your point is that nobody can say violence against civilians is wrong unless they say it for every instance of violence against civilians individually? Is there a cutoff or quota?
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Oct 27, 2023 04:04
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mannerup posted:violence against civilians is always wrong, don't see how Israel being founded through displacement, ethnic cleansing and committing atrocities against civilians makes that statement wrong or hypocritical unless they believe none of those events actually occurred I believe the idea is that if it harms the legitimacy of the groups who use it then it harms the legitimacy of the state of Israel.
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Oct 27, 2023 04:07
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https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1717737144276455502 The lengths we are willing to go so that Israel can starve Gaza is absolutely insane.
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Oct 27, 2023 04:39
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Time to take water away from the non-existent hamas in the west bank too https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1717700249458728989
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Oct 27, 2023 06:29
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Neurolimal posted:The lengths we are willing to go so that Israel can starve Gaza is absolutely insane. I’ve noticed a lot of people pick up on this attack, but it doesn’t have anything to do with the The Islamic Resistance in Iraq (IRQ), an umbrella term selected by a number of Iranian-backed Shia militias operating out of Iraq, has been firing rockets or, far more commonly, using drones, to hit US/allied installations in Iraq and Syria since they formed in response to everything that’s happened since October 7. The US/allies respond with air strikes and, at least a couple times, small raids. The US and Israel are, at least so far, very widely bending over backward to make it clear they have absolutely no interest in things heating up with Iran. I’m inclined to believe these IRQ cats are mostly operating “on their own” and with a very tight leash.
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Oct 27, 2023 07:24
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HonorableTB posted:"We don't have the data on this" And they weren't wrong exactly, there were a bunch of reasons why it was hard to get accurate counts. If the numbers were 10% or 20% off in either direction that's very important to statisticians and epidemiologists, but mostly irrelevant to how ordinary people should react. It's like okay are they saying six 9/11s of Americans are dying every week at the peak instead of seven 9/11s, because then I'm still not going to Denny's. Or are they saying the numbers might be 95% off and maybe there's no pandemic at all? They would never say exactly what they were arguing, just endlessly insist that the numbers weren't accurate and couldn't be trusted and this insinuated... something. Feels very much that like that. Even if the ministry of health is overcounting by a huge amount, like double, the bombing is still a horrific war crime. Or are they overcounting by a factor of 1,000 and maybe nobody died at all...? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 13:12
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VitalSigns posted:You know what it reminds me of: 2020, when there always seemed to be someone piping up to question the official death counts, and they were always really cagey about how far off the numbers were and what their point was or why it was relevant to a specific conversation. I think there's a certain kind of impotence where you feel you only have control over what you do and don't believe because what you do doesn't really matter. So your only way of proactively responding to a situation that demands response is to try to be really clever about which facts you do and don't accept.
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Oct 27, 2023 15:41
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The IDF produced another definitely real phone call to prove Hamas has an "underground terror complex" under Al-Shifa Hospital. https://x.com/Israel/status/1717913931904147582?s=20 Expecting a PIJ rocket misfire over the hospital in the near future. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 15:56
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VitalSigns posted:You know what it reminds me of: 2020, when there always seemed to be someone piping up to question the official death counts, and they were always really cagey about how far off the numbers were and what their point was or why it was relevant to a specific conversation. Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. Truth, what actually happened as a matter of reality, is really all we have to unite discussion no matter the topic and is a valid intent in and of itself. Consider how much time and energy is spent with regards to figuring out what has actually happened with respect to any major event, let alone it's ramifications. As soon as the simple act of trying get to the truth of the matter is perceived as "just asking questions"—casting doubt as an political device—then we fall back on the next best things being educated guesses, whim, gut feelings, intuition, etc., all of which are infamously horrible at tracking anything substantive. Einstein was "just asking questions" when he turned Newton's theory of gravitation on its head and revolutionized our understanding of all space and time. Yes, 10% either direction matters. 1 death matters, 1 injustice matters. 1 crime against another human being matters. Because in total this what creates the corpus from which we can actually meaningfully speak, debate, and prognose.
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Oct 27, 2023 16:19
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A list of entire extended families destroyed by Israel https://twitter.com/AseelAlBajeh/status/1717588222845354231
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Oct 27, 2023 16:27
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Pvt. Parts posted:Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. Truth, what actually happened as a matter of reality, is really all we have to unite discussion no matter the topic and is a valid intent in and of itself. Consider how much time and energy is spent with regards to figuring out what has actually happened with respect to any major event, let alone it's ramifications. As soon as the simple act of trying get to the truth of the matter is perceived as "just asking questions"—casting doubt as an political device—then we fall back on the next best things being educated guesses, whim, gut feelings, intuition, etc., all of which are infamously horrible at tracking anything substantive. Einstein was "just asking questions" when he turned Newton's theory of gravitation on its head and revolutionized our understanding of all space and time. Then maybe Joe Biden should go into Gaza and verify all the death certificates personally to see if it's off by 10%
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Oct 27, 2023 16:28
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Pvt. Parts posted:Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. Truth, what actually happened as a matter of reality, is really all we have to unite discussion no matter the topic and is a valid intent in and of itself. Consider how much time and energy is spent with regards to figuring out what has actually happened with respect to any major event, let alone it's ramifications. As soon as the simple act of trying get to the truth of the matter is perceived as "just asking questions"—casting doubt as an political device—then we fall back on the next best things being educated guesses, whim, gut feelings, intuition, etc., all of which are infamously horrible at tracking anything substantive. Einstein was "just asking questions" when he turned Newton's theory of gravitation on its head and revolutionized our understanding of all space and time. Just because you say intention doesn't matter doesn't make it true. The President publicly calling in to question the death toll in Gaza is a political act, not a fact finding mission.
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Oct 27, 2023 16:43
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Pvt. Parts posted:As soon as the simple act of trying get to the truth of the matter is perceived as "just asking questions"—casting doubt as an political device—then we fall back on the next best things being educated guesses, whim, gut feelings, intuition, etc., all of which are infamously horrible at tracking anything substantive. Einstein was "just asking questions" when he turned Newton's theory of gravitation on its head and revolutionized our understanding of all space and time. You established "just asking questions" as "casting doubt as an [sic] political device" but then your supporting example is physics and not related to what you were talking about at all.
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Oct 27, 2023 16:49
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Neurolimal posted:Israel exports its security expertise to a large number of countries, both training and technology. They're in a unique position where they have two significantly different models of hostile population centers full of people with no private rights under Israel's system, to which they can improvise upon. With the Palestinian Authority thoroughly captured, and Hamas only recently demonstrating the ability to deal with aerial threats (and even then, just helicopters), they have been able to do as they wish. I'm not sure you're actually suggesting, even with full knowledge of the security apparatus Israel has been forced to create as a result, that she has somehow innumerably profited from being surrounded (historically in some cases, presently in others) by enemies, including Palestine, and should now repay that back? That every $10,000 Iron Dome rocket which shoots down a $500 Qassam rocket is somehow a win for Israel and their tab is running up? It's easy to make a point when you ignore the blatantly obvious. Israel is a weird, distortive, ethnonational project. What it isn't is a money making scheme.
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Oct 27, 2023 16:50
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Pvt. Parts posted:Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. Truth, what actually happened as a matter of reality, is really all we have to unite discussion no matter the topic and is a valid intent in and of itself. Consider how much time and energy is spent with regards to figuring out what has actually happened with respect to any major event, let alone it's ramifications. As soon as the simple act of trying get to the truth of the matter is perceived as "just asking questions"—casting doubt as an political device—then we fall back on the next best things being educated guesses, whim, gut feelings, intuition, etc., all of which are infamously horrible at tracking anything substantive. Einstein was "just asking questions" when he turned Newton's theory of gravitation on its head and revolutionized our understanding of all space and time. The guy who said he doesn't believe the numbers when his own state department uses those numbers internally, and in fact organizations broadly agree that their numbers are consistently trustworthy, is not attempting to get to the truth. The point of Biden dismissing the death toll is because it is a politically inconvenient fact for him. e: I mean honestly just in loving general, people questioning the numbers coming out of the Ministry of Health on the basis of "well it's run by Hamas" aren't actually interested in finding the truth because it takes basically no effort to research for oneself their reliability. If one was honestly asking a question, you'd presume they'd do a little research of their own before publicly stating with confidence they don't believe their numbers. And from the standpoint of what should be done, it does not in fact matter if the final most accurate tally ends up 10% greater or smaller. What Israel is doing is a horrendous crime against humanity whether or not there are a thousand fewer dead, and a ceasefire is not more or less of an imperative based on the specific number of the dead. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 16:56
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Israel is pounding the hell out of Gaza right now. The live video feeds are showing constant explosions. They seem to be much smaller and more numerous though so my guess is it's artillery fire as opposed to bombs. I wonder if they finally starting their ground invasion.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:00
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Pvt. Parts posted:Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. Truth, what actually happened as a matter of reality, is really all we have to unite discussion no matter the topic and is a valid intent in and of itself. Consider how much time and energy is spent with regards to figuring out what has actually happened with respect to any major event, let alone it's ramifications. As soon as the simple act of trying get to the truth of the matter is perceived as "just asking questions"—casting doubt as an political device—then we fall back on the next best things being educated guesses, whim, gut feelings, intuition, etc., all of which are infamously horrible at tracking anything substantive. Einstein was "just asking questions" when he turned Newton's theory of gravitation on its head and revolutionized our understanding of all space and time. I mentioned this earlier, but are you questioning the Israeli death counts? Is Joe Biden questioning them? I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with questioning things that seem untrustworthy, but what things people choose to question says a lot about where they place their trust. If you're asking questions about Gaza's casualty counts but not Israel's casualty counts, then you're showing that you consider Israel to be far more trustworthy than Hamas, and that bias is of course going to affect your perspective on the conflict in general. Einstein wasn't "just asking questions". He formulated an alternative theory and then tested it with observations before publishing it along with sufficient proof to convince people there was something to it. Also, by the time Einstein started his career, scientists already knew that Newton's theory of gravitation had issues. And Einstein was just one of many scientists seeking to fill the gap between Newton's theories and the real-world observations that didn't quite line up with them.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:00
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's easy to make a point when you ignore the blatantly obvious. Dude you just literally said this: Pvt. Parts posted:Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. Civilized Fishbot posted:If you spend all day on hallowed ground, you'll never get your grocery shopping done. Cool, I wasn't the person who said that. The Sean fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 17:03
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Pvt. Parts posted:Questioning facts, statistics, etc. and getting to the truth is hallowed ground and should have unlimited clemency, no matter the supposed "intention", real or perceived. If you spend all day on hallowed ground, you'll never get your grocery shopping done. The problem is not that that people are asking questions about exactly what's happening, the problem is that our leaders in politics and media are focusing on questions with little immediate significance (did 6500 Palestinians die, or 7000, or 7500, who fired off which missile exactly) in a way that distracts from the urgent crisis (the Israeli bombing campaign is killing thousands of innocent people, how do we stop this)
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Oct 27, 2023 17:07
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Pvt. Parts posted:I'm not sure you're actually suggesting, even with full knowledge of the security apparatus Israel has been forced to create as a result, that she has somehow innumerably profited from being surrounded (historically in some cases, presently in others) by enemies, including Palestine, and should now repay that back? That every $10,000 Iron Dome rocket which shoots down a $500 Qassam rocket is somehow a win for Israel and their tab is running up? It's easy to make a point when you ignore the blatantly obvious. It’s place in the global order is absolutely part of the neoliberal scheme though. The need for an unshakeable ally in the region where a lot of oil is is what drives our relationship. We don’t actually care about what Iran does internally, we care because they don’t comply with the neoliberal order. We’ll cozy up to any autocrat or dictatorship or monarchy so long as they don’t gently caress the money up and are willing to play ball. So while Israel itself might not perceive itself as playing that role, and few citizens of any nation state comprehend these relationships at that level, to me it’s quite obvious that if Israel suddenly started behaving internally in ways that impacted the global neoliberal order, they’d be a pariah faster than you can say ethnic cleansing. If you gently caress with the money going where it’s supposed to (upwards, out of your smaller country, and into investor pockets) you’re a problem. That’s the dividing line. You can do anything you want internally and the US will have your back because the money is what matters, the rest is PR.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:10
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 17:11
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Charliegrs posted:Israel is pounding the hell out of Gaza right now. The live video feeds are showing constant explosions. They seem to be much smaller and more numerous though so my guess is it's artillery fire as opposed to bombs. I wonder if they finally starting their ground invasion.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:13
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Reik posted:Just because you say intention doesn't matter doesn't make it true. The President publicly calling in to question the death toll in Gaza is a political act, not a fact finding mission. Intent when it comes to truth-seeking should not matter, no. Truth seeking is in and of itself a valid intent first of all. That's what I'm saying. Nail Rat posted:Then maybe Joe Biden should go into Gaza and verify all the death certificates personally to see if it's off by 10% what The Sean posted:You established "just asking questions" as "casting doubt as an [sic] political device" but then your supporting example is physics and not related to what you were talking about at all. In my first usage I was using it in the way many skeptics of the "practice" use it, where they believe it to be a subversion technique. Which it very well may be in any particular instance. My second usage was my demonstration of why the spirit of truth pursuit for the sake of truth pursuit is valid, as it has lead to many of the most important and good things we have. I'm most familiar with physics but the spirit of truth-seeking is largely the same across disciplines. Most technology and medicine are fruits of truth-seeking, for instance. The boons of careful examination is the point here. Serotoning fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 17:17
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Pvt. Parts posted:
Yeah, you inconsistently referred to a term with specific subjective meaning and then took the literal meaning to slap together your argument. When you said "just asking questions" in quotes re: Einstein you're referring to the bullshit use (hence your quotes) but pretended you were being consistent. Just like "just asking questions" this was a dishonest way to attempt to make your point. The Sean fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 17:21
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Over 6000 bombs have been dropped on Gaza and the death count being disputed is over 7000. The idea is that a little over 1 death per bomb dropped on Gaza is too high? Because that actually seems low. And given the very large number of bodies (and still living but doomed) people under rubble, we know it is low. Is the Israeli military so ineffective they can’t kill more than 1 person per bomb? Frankly I doubt the death count quibblers actually believe that. This is a full front disinformation war where anything and everything that can lead to sympathy with the Palestinians must be disputed no matter how absurd the argument.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:22
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Israel just cut off all internet and cellular service from the Gaza strip
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Oct 27, 2023 17:23
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The Sean posted:Yeah, you inconsistently referred to a term with specific subjective meaning and then took the literal meaning to slap together your argument. When you said "just asking questions" in quotes re: Einstein you're referring to the bullshit use (hence your quotes) but pretended you were being consistent. I am doing my best to assume good faith on your part here; I'm LARPing as what a skeptic might say Einstein or Galileo are doing when they further pursue truth. Maybe Galileo is a better example because he was actually prosecuted for how his views clashed with the orthodoxy. But that's not the point, the point is that truth-seeking for truth-sake is good and should not be cast in doubt.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:34
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It is insane how lazy they're getting with this poo poo. https://x.com/netanyahu/status/1717916845859078531?s=20
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Oct 27, 2023 17:34
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Groovelord Neato posted:It is insane how lazy they're getting with this poo poo. I honestly think they're laughing at the US et al that are still buying this poo poo. They're just dabbing on them.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:38
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"We just released the intelligence proving it" Releases dahir insaat cgi mock-up of Bin Laden's mountain fortress.
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Oct 27, 2023 17:38
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Pvt. Parts posted:Intent when it comes to truth-seeking should not matter, no. Truth seeking is in and of itself a valid intent first of all. "Truth-seeking" already implies an intent though, to seek the truth. Not everyone who doubted, for example, covid death rates was actually seeking to know the truth, were they? Even though comprehensive analysis showed that the official counts were not perfectly accurate (and probably an underestimate based on excess death numbers), there were some people whose goal seemed to be insinuating a narrative that the death counts were completely fabricated and it was "just the flu" or something. Was President Trump a "truth-seeker"? This is another truth that I think it shouldn't bother anyone to acknowledge. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 17:41
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