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Eric Cantonese posted:I am struck by how differently young people of all religions view the US-Israel relationship. Obama arguably suffered a lot by crossing paths with Netanyahu though, so I'm not sure if mainstream Dems stop being enthusiastically pro-Israel until Millennials and younger start taking up more public offices and party leadership ranks.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:07
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Gumball Gumption posted:That's not the choice being presented. You can either have "shoot your family and other families" or "doesn't shoot your family but does shoot other families". That's how I read neuroliminal's post though, as presenting a choice where you're the one getting the poo poo deal with either party, rather than the fixed negative outcome being externalized. I am very tired today so I might've misread. I agree that's not the reality of voting in the US right now.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:09
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Kagrenak posted:That's how I read neuroliminal's post though, as presenting a choice where you're the one getting the poo poo deal with either party, rather than the fixed negative outcome being externalized. I am very tired today so I might've misread. I agree that's not the reality of voting in the US right now. Maybe it's not what Neurolimal suggested but it's the best way to describe the current deals we're actually being offered right now and part of where the harm reduction arguments fall apart for me. I'm sick of my comfort coming from others. Really just wishing you could actually walk away from omelas
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Oct 27, 2023 22:12
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Gumball Gumption posted:Maybe it's not what Neurolimal suggested but it's the best way to describe the current deals we're actually being offered right now and part of where the harm reduction arguments fall apart for me. I'm sick of my comfort coming from others. Really just wishing you could actually walk away from omelas but the other people getting killed isn't where your comfort comes from, because the people who would cause you discomfort would also be killing them
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Oct 27, 2023 22:13
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Maybe you can convince them later, but this is possibly the worst time for it.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:13
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it's the same blood on one's hands both ways, just one has extra blood too
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Oct 27, 2023 22:15
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:but the other people getting killed isn't where your comfort comes from, because the people who would cause you discomfort would also be killing them It comes from agreeing to be governed by those who want to cause harm and accepting the comfort in exchange. Part of the lesser harm argument is that we can't reject the idea of being governed by the current options at all, we can only pick from them and triage the harm. The loss of security from rejecting it is too high and the cost of accepting it is the security of others.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:18
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Neurolimal posted:I honestly request anyone seriously expressing electoralism at them to at least have the courage to do it at their funerals. Find Justin Amash and tell him about the dire need to re-elect Biden. I mean this is going to be true of any choice made. No matter what choice you make, be it action or inaction, it will have to be justified at the graves of those who bear the consequences. Everyone is going to find their own particular sins to accept but it isn't going to suddenly go away no matter what choice you make. Gumball Gumption posted:Maybe it's not what Neurolimal suggested but it's the best way to describe the current deals we're actually being offered right now and part of where the harm reduction arguments fall apart for me. I'm sick of my comfort coming from others. Really just wishing you could actually walk away from omelas You can. That's going to always be the key to a conversation like this, and something we all have to accept. You or I can walk away right now, but it means sacrificing the comforts that we've grown used to.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:18
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of course what I'd rather want is FPTP to be replaced with a different voting system and people aren't forced into these choices, a total reform of poo poo like selec or whoever was talking about in the first place; but that's in the long term, my more electoral approach would be in the short term before that stuff happens.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:21
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Neurolimal posted:I honestly request anyone seriously expressing electoralism at them to at least have the courage to do it at their funerals. Please do not harass people at a funeral.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:23
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Gumball Gumption posted:It comes from agreeing to be governed by those who want to cause harm and accepting the comfort in exchange. Part of the lesser harm argument is that we can't reject the idea of being governed by the current options at all, we can only pick from them and triage the harm. The loss of security from rejecting it is too high and the cost of accepting it is the security of others. it's not just about your comfort/security though, but about the comfort/security of other innocent people
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Oct 27, 2023 22:28
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:well it's not like Palestinians wouldn't be genocided if the republicans were in power. It's not "things are better for us and worse for Palestine vs things are worse for us and better for Palestine"; it's "things are better for us but Palestine is getting shat on vs things are worse for us and Palestine is getting just as shat on"; our comparative lack of suffering isn't being tied to Palestinian suffering. "Vote for the lesser of two evil genocide-ers" really isn't a great rallying cry. I can't judge someone for thinking differently about this, but I personally draw a line in the sand at the explicit and open support of genocide. At a certain level of evil (and to me, Biden's actions meet that standard), I just can't do the electoral calculus in the face of something so horrendous. The thought of voting for Biden after this makes me viscerally, physically ill - like I really think I can't pull the lever for him even if I know that on the balance it's the better "rational choice". But I'm married to a Muslim so the whole "dehumanization and devaluing of Muslim lives" thing hits harder when it's your wife and her family. (Biden better be able to win with 0% of the Muslim vote, because that's what he's likely to get)
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Oct 27, 2023 22:30
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Sartre’s thinking has that uses Heidegger problem though that Tillich doesn’t have. And Tillich’s thinking benefits from integrating class analysis to the same question with a closer (direct) proximity to the events in Germany. How would you describe 'the Heidegger problem' within Sartre?
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Oct 27, 2023 22:31
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honestly there's a chance I wouldn't vote for Biden because of this either... but also I have the privilege of living in a blue state that's gonna go for him anyways.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:32
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Neurolimal posted:I honestly request anyone seriously expressing electoralism at them to at least have the courage to do it at their funerals. Find Justin Amash and tell him about the dire need to re-elect Biden. If I had the Death Note I would just *whoosh* and all the greater evil politicians would be gone and try and pave the way for non-evil politicians instead of going for the lesser evil. But the Death Note isn't real, I can't live out that fantasy (something that would be a fantasy of mine, not saying it's a fantasy of yours) (Actually I would use it on the top richest people first, and see the fallout from that before going further but that's a bit off topic)
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Oct 27, 2023 22:39
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:If I had the Death Note I would just *whoosh* and all the greater evil politicians would be gone and try and pave the way for non-evil politicians instead of going for the lesser evil. But the Death Note isn't real, I can't live out that fantasy (something that would be a fantasy of mine, not saying it's a fantasy of yours) It wouldn’t work that way anyway. Those same jobs would be filled with people absolutely willing to step up and do the same job. You have to change systems, not people, if you want to see real changes to how this government treats people. You can’t kill your way to a different society; you must change the structures that underpin and replicate the society you’ve got.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:41
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I kind of have to vote for Democrats, because if Biden loses, the GOP is going to use the full power of the executive branch to do everything they can to kill LGBTQ+ people and other minorities. What's happening to Palestine sucks but I have to put my own safety first. hth
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Oct 27, 2023 22:49
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:it's not just about your comfort/security though, but about the comfort/security of other innocent people Well it's about which ones. Not everyone gets it so I need to vote for whoever does the last harm to the fewest innocents. I just also don't see where the offramp is or where the line is. We're down to both parties supporting genocide overseas and only one supporting genocide at home so I'm forced to pick the least amount which is 1. And if it comes down to trans people vs everyone? I guess I'll have to pick the option they only kills trans people. Trans people and Muslims vs everyone? Well sadly I'll need to pick the one that only kills two groups.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:51
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I feel like the protests in support of Palestine that are happening have a mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmarginally more likely effect of swaying a democrat politician than a republican politician anyways
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Oct 27, 2023 22:51
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Queering Wheel posted:I kind of have to vote for Democrats, because if Biden loses, the GOP is going to use the full power of the executive branch to do everything they can to kill LGBTQ+ people and other minorities. What's happening to Palestine sucks but I have to put my own safety first. hth I'm making similar calculations and mostly finding myself incredibly angry and furious at everyone asking me to make any of those calculations. I do not want to put my own safety first, I feel forced to, and the more I do the more I think everyone prioritizing their safety over the safety of others is what's making us all unsafe Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 22:52
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How expressive are Death Note requests? Are they regular expressions? Turing-complete? Because you could ask it to kill everyone who would oppose the revolution, which is presumably less than 100% of the human race Are you allowed to feed it through a printer or does it have to be handwritten? Maybe Terry McAuliffe could be convinced to help
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Oct 27, 2023 22:56
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Gumball Gumption posted:I'm making similar calculations and mostly finding myself incredibly angry and furious at everyone asking me to make any of those calculations. I do not want to put my own safety first and the more I do the more I think everyone prioritizing their safety over the safety of others is what's making us all unsafe I'm just glad that my state is putting IRV on the ballot and hope it wins so that I won't have to make that calculus anymore because it really loving sucks to have to do so. Hopefully something similar happens in your state (or you happen to be living in the same state as me) haveblue posted:How expressive are Death Note requests? Are they regular expressions? Turing-complete? Because you could ask it to kill everyone who would oppose the revolution, which is presumably less than 100% of the human race Realistically I'd just use it to kill off the top 10 richest people, see the fallout from that, then do another round, etc
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Oct 27, 2023 22:57
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I believe you have to write their individual true name. I believe you could in theory write, say, every name on the Forbes 500, or every name in the Panama papers.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:58
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Gnumonic posted:"Vote for the lesser of two evil genocide-ers" really isn't a great rallying cry. what Biden is actually saying is: quote:
(some possibly-relevant stuff elided to not start debates that better belong in I/P) and of course US pressure (as directed by Biden) is the only thing holding back the Israelis, both in terms of their bombing campaign and in terms of conducting a ground invasion. Pressure that has intensified as the death toll has mounted. There's a picture of Biden that exists in leftist spaces that's a surrealistic version of the Biden that actually exists. That's how i.e. we can get presumably politically-aware posters mystified as to whether Biden supports trans people at all, when his support for LGBTQ and Trans rights in particular has been unequivocal and full throated. I think a while back he called opposition to trans rights 'sinful'.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:01
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haveblue posted:How expressive are Death Note requests? Are they regular expressions? Turing-complete? Because you could ask it to kill everyone who would oppose the revolution, which is presumably less than 100% of the human race I'm honestly a little baffled how T-Mac managed to fall directly on his face after his solid first term as governor, including the bit you're citing about "gently caress you I WILL hand sign all these pardons", and his general competence at campaign stuff. Did he just get arrogant or something? It's weird.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:06
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I'm honestly a little baffled how T-Mac managed to fall directly on his face after his solid first term as governor, including the bit you're citing about "gently caress you I WILL hand sign all these pardons", and his general competence at campaign stuff. Did he just get arrogant or something? It's weird. Where I live at least all the bullshit about critical race theory was what really did him in, along with scaremongering about transgender people in bathrooms e: \/ yeah that too
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Oct 27, 2023 23:09
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Yeah IIRC he did some kind of gaffe about parental involvement in education. Which probably wasn’t the whole picture, but it certainly didn’t help
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Oct 27, 2023 23:10
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meatpath posted:How would you describe 'the Heidegger problem' within Sartre? There is a split in existentialism. Sartre identifies that split in “Existentialism is a Humanism “ dividing existentialism into Christian on one side atheistic on the other. On the atheistic side the use of the categories being and nothingness etc are coming from Heidegger who has the is a nazi problem. On the religious side Sartre identities Karl Jasper as the first religious existentialist, but Tillich is rather more important. The religious existentialists use the same words/ categories being and nothingness, etc but it’s all ontological inverted compared to the atheistic existentialists. But functionally the categories still work the same way and many of the same conclusions can be reached. But all the religious existentialists were anti nazi. Tillich is the very first academic the Nazis shitcan when they come to power in response to his book. So Sartre has the problem of using categories taken from the thinking of Heidegger who is a nazi. Later this plays into the authoritarian left responding to criticisms from existentialism and it’s part of the spilt in communism with existentialist socialism. The religious existentialist side just doesn’t have to worry about any of it because Tillich is responding to / rejecting Heidegger in 33 in the socialist decision.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:11
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At no point in there does he call for a ceasefire. It's meaningless pablum spliced with a phone call to a faux-leader Palestinians do not respect. It is also immediately undercut when both he and state department representatives go on publicly broadcasted television and deny the death totals. Arab Americans aren't stupid, they have object permanence, they remember past and future statements like anyone else. Our reaction to Israel shutting off all utilities to Gaza was to send carriers in to intercept retaliatory fire. That can't be papered over with complex iterations of "I feel you, I see you, I hear you."
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Oct 27, 2023 23:12
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Anyone else feels grossed out that oppressed groups get trotted out and presented as to why another group should continue to be oppressed?
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Oct 27, 2023 23:14
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He doesn't call for a ceasefire because no country in Israel's position would agree to one. None. What's meaningless pablum is posturing for something which will not possibly happen (especially when done by politicians, rather than well-intentioned idealists). The problem with Biden's response is that he is in nowhere near strong enough or forceful enough in pressuring Israel to follow the rules of war, to end indiscriminate bombing. That is something to criticize, not that he didn't throw US credibility and influence with Israel down the toilet. Edit: I am hoping they'll at least succeed in preventing Lebanon from getting fully into this mess. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 23:17
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its ok to have lines in the sand you won't cross
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Oct 27, 2023 23:18
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Yeah I got a bit too heated; especially since, from what I've learned even before now, electoralism isn't even the best vector of change. Everything just loving sucks and is frustrating
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Oct 27, 2023 23:21
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OddObserver posted:That is something to criticize, not that he didn't throw US credibility and influence with Israel down the toilet. They are our client state, not the other way around. Israel needs American munition production if they want to drop 7,000 bombs every 20 days. We do not need sodastreams and fake karate. The relationship is existential in one direction. There is no subtle influence. Israel violently and publicly lashes out against any implication of moderation. They are premised on the concept of never being threatened or controlled. They just rejected ceasefire negotiations on the grounds that Qatar publicly mentioned it too soon for their personal tastes. For all we know Biden could very well be telling Netanyahu to moderate his genocide. Netanyahu will most certainly have said "go gently caress yourself, you decrepit moron", and then we send him more bombs. E: quote:Edit: I am hoping they'll at least succeed in preventing Lebanon from getting fully into this mess. For the record, this is indistinguishable from "I hope Israel razes Gaza". The threat on their northern border has been a major factor is delaying the invasion. Hezbollah are objectively on the correct side here, and I hope we fail at whatever intimidation tactics we are attempting. I hope we fail miserably. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 23:25
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Bar Ran Dun posted:There is a split in existentialism. Sartre identifies that split in “Existentialism is a Humanism “ dividing existentialism into Christian on one side atheistic on the other. On the atheistic side the use of the categories being and nothingness etc are coming from Heidegger who has the is a nazi problem. None of this has a single loving thing to do with anything I was saying. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2023 23:42
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Discendo Vox posted:None of this has a single loving thing to do with anything I was saying. I never see you actually make informative posts or engage in discussion. It's just always this, being mad at mods, being mad at other posters, and accusing people of being in a conspiracy against you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2023 23:54
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I was gonna say "aren't they the one who often posts news articles" but then I realized I've gotten Vox and Leon kinda mashed together in my head
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Oct 28, 2023 00:00
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Discendo Vox is the wannabe hall monitor and Lyin' Leon is the one who posts news articles and misrepresents them (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 00:03
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Knock it off with the posting about posters, please.
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Oct 28, 2023 00:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:So Sartre has the problem of using categories taken from the thinking of Heidegger who is a nazi. Sartre's politics aside, this is a base simplification of these thinkers. There is a discussion to be had about the relationship between Heidegger's involvement with the Nazi party and his writing, but it is not and will never be a settled issue. There is also a discussion to be had about the relationship between Being and Nothingness and Being and Time, and how the French read Heidegger in general, separate from Sartre's apologetics for Stalin and his politics in general. I am generally unsympathetic to the notion that Heidegger's involvement with the Nazi party poisons his philosophy, and frankly the idea that Being and Nothingness is somehow tainted by the Nazis is lunacy. /philosophy derail
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Oct 28, 2023 00:34
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