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priznat posted:Ended up getting more signing bonus, more RSUs from the new company and the start date pushed so my vest with the old company will be in the notice period. From reading the contracts it seems like as long as I am not terminated (ie still working there and getting paid, which I would be they never walk anyone out when they give notice) I should get the vesting as well. Nice, congrats!
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Oct 18, 2023 19:21
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Asking for a friend, literally. Maybe this isn't the best thread. How do stock options work for startups as far as taxes are concerned? Their compensation package includes stocks with a several year vesting period. They are considering the value to be zero and only care about base compensation. Do they have to pay taxes when the stock is received, at each vesting period? How does the valuation work? Or does none of that matter and they only pay when the company is sold or goes public?
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Oct 19, 2023 00:22
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Salami Surgeon posted:Asking for a friend, literally. Maybe this isn't the best thread. Are they options or RSUs? Those are two different things. You kinda sound like you're describing RSUs.
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Oct 19, 2023 00:24
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Tax wise stock options don't do anything until they can be exercised which will only happen if the company gets bought or goes public. And at that point the basic view is that it is the difference between the price of the stock it is being sold for and the strike price of the option share. For example if the company is sold or IPOs for $1 a share and you have options with strike price of 0.10 then the 90cents is taxed as a capital gain I believe. But since they have no value until the company is sold or IPOs they don't have a tax burden
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Oct 19, 2023 00:32
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Lockback posted:Are they options or RSUs? Those are two different things. You kinda sound like you're describing RSUs. They said stock options but maybe they meant RSUs. I guess shares are part of the compensation, and there actually is no option. priznat posted:Tax wise stock options don't do anything until they can be exercised which will only happen if the company gets bought or goes public. And at that point the basic view is that it is the difference between the price of the stock it is being sold for and the strike price of the option share. For example if the company is sold or IPOs for $1 a share and you have options with strike price of 0.10 then the 90cents is taxed as a capital gain I believe. But since they have no value until the company is sold or IPOs they don't have a tax burden Thanks. The startup is very pre IPO, I don't think they have a plan or path to IPO or even want an IPO. I think my friend is going to take the job to stay out of the chow line, then look to move on ASAP.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:11
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If it's RSU, there's no tax event if it's pre-IPO. Once it does go IPO, the RSUs will be taxed as income whenever they vest/become liquid. Frequently a % of them will be sold immediately and put into withholding, but it's up to the company if they do that. When you do sell, any increase from that vest would be taxed as capital gains. Any decrease will be a loss.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:17
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Well this is disappointing, the hiring company came back and said no, the Nov 20 start date is a must. Pretty annoying that I'll miss a vest and the sign on bonus doesn't fully cover it, as I explained, especially because of the USD (my vesting shares) to CAD (my sign on bonus) conversion. I don't want to blow up the deal because I'm fairly sure the current job is probably somewhat doomed with how the projects are going, but at the same time I'm already starting off with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing financial wise is amazing enough to make it a clear cut must jump over situation. Hurrgh.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:05
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I mean sucks, but also the whole point of vesting shares is to act as a tether so end of day your call if its a tether that works or not.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:18
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Well, you can come back with "In that case, a sign-on bonus of $X to cover what I'm losing is a must for me." But you would have to be willing to walk away if they refuse. It just depends how much you want this specific job and how good the compensation package already on the table is.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:19
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Yeah I’m starting to have second thoughts although like I mentioned, I’m worried as this company pulls everyone from my current gig I’ll be left there to be eventually laid off as the division becomes defunct. Overall the raise wasn’t spectacular, RSUs and bonus about the same as existing, sign on doesn’t defray the loss of my soon to vest RSUs altogether.. They can make the deal sweeter by allowing me to start 3 weeks later than they originally wanted, so basically at no real cost to them.. I’m getting somewhat towards the “thanks but I’ll ride it out here” stage.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:41
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Then just tell them how much money they need to pay you up front to make starting on 11/20 worth your while, and make it clear (professionally and still with collaborative language, not competitive language) that it's not a negotiable point for you (just as they made it clear the start date is not negotiable for them). If they refuse, then you can walk away. But they might accept, depending exactly how much and how confident they are they have a nearly-as-good Plan B to turn to quickly. Being laid off isn't the worst thing in the world. If you have the discipline to immediately get to work finding your next job, that is. You'll get severance or unemployment comp which basically amounts to being paid to find your next job.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:54
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Question: A place that wants you to onboard without putting your pay in writing - no offer letter - red flag or reddest flag? Its a charity. Paid work, tho. I'm thinking its just unorganized, not malicious, but.... TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 18:19
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No reason not to press on looking until the demise nears and beyond, either.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:20
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And while it's always better to look for a job while you have a job, this climate of both a labor shortage AND layoffs not being super uncommon means its the least headwind for being an experienced person looking without a job I can remember. Even if you're feeling an upcoming layoff, take a step back and try to objectively assess what your best move if there was no pressure.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:20
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TheParadigm posted:Question: A place that wants you to onboard without putting your pay in writing - no offer letter - red flag or reddest flag? Yes. Red flag. I'd personally maybe be cool with "Hey, take some time to read through these things or watch this video so you know what we're about" but anything more than like 60 minutes of pre-work is getting taken advantage of.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:21
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How does the thread feel about overemployment?
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Oct 19, 2023 18:24
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Euronymous posted:How does the thread feel about overemployment? I mean personally I think it's taking money from someone who probably would like that opportunity in order to raise your own take home that's probably already well above thriving level. The couple times it's been caught around me it was situations where other team members had to carry the slack for someone doing a pretty crap job (though in fairness, it may work well for people I just haven't seen/be aware of). If it's happening a lot it also justifies the "Return to Office" mandate so I'd rather that not happen. I'm sure there are other opinions but especially if you're talking about good paying white collar jobs it seems like it helps everyone more to not be greedy or ruin remote work for everybody.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:32
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Lockback posted:I mean personally I think it's taking money from someone who probably would like that opportunity in order to raise your own take home that's probably already well above thriving level. The couple times it's been caught around me it was situations where other team members had to carry the slack for someone doing a pretty crap job (though in fairness, it may work well for people I just haven't seen/be aware of). If it's happening a lot it also justifies the "Return to Office" mandate so I'd rather that not happen. That's not the FYGM way, so it's back to the office. Overemployment will return to the purvue of overpriced contractors.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:37
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I did overemployment with a contracting gig and while the little bit of extra money was nice, the hit to my health ended up not being worth it. I was actually trying to contract-to-hire and transition at the second role but my health crapped out before their overstretched contract period ended to swap me over. Then when they did interview formally, they didn’t hire me.
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Oct 19, 2023 19:35
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Let a corporation burn you out in exchange for vague promises of doing you a solid later: not even once.
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Oct 19, 2023 19:39
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I responded back saying look, this is what I would be down in taking this job at the start date and by taking the extra 3 weeks before starting I would be happy to join because I would be made whole and it would be enough incentive to go. So will see what they say. If they bump up the signing bonus great, if they give the extra 3 weeks before starting (something that would cost them nothing), also great. If they don't do anything I will really have to think on it. I would like to move over just because it looks like a more interesting and potential growth prospects could be better plus working with an old manager and team members I like. But I would feel pretty salty about it right off the start due to the financials and I don't think that's a good way to start a job.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:00
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I agree, it is extremely not a good way to start a new job. And they should know that.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:04
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Very surprised because I had heard their offers were really generous but finding them to be less so, perhaps it is really group dependent. I know what my level should be (the company is on levels.fyi with a lot of data for the US) and I am wayyyyyy under what people in the US are making (I'm in Canada). So also not a great sign. Granted salaries are lower here in general. But like, usually number parity and then the 30% currency difference is the real dividing line. Not even at number parity and then plus the cheaper currency on top.. bleh.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:31
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Is there anything dumb and sneaky you can do that is still 100% legal like blow all your vacation and sick leave at the prior job to stretch the date at old job to vesting while still starting new job or would employment contracts make that a nonstarter?
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Oct 19, 2023 22:38
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priznat posted:Very surprised because I had heard their offers were really generous but finding them to be less so, perhaps it is really group dependent. I know what my level should be (the company is on levels.fyi with a lot of data for the US) and I am wayyyyyy under what people in the US are making (I'm in Canada). So also not a great sign. Granted salaries are lower here in general. But like, usually number parity and then the 30% currency difference is the real dividing line. Not even at number parity and then plus the cheaper currency on top.. bleh. People in the US make +50% what they do in Canada for the same role in my industry (consulting). And that’s before you consider the currency conversion. It is what it is. You can’t look at US salaries too much if you have Canadian comps.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:38
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^^^ A SVP told us that the engineering talent in Canada is less expensive than India, so yea we're pretty inexpensive and it's definitely not a 1:1 comparison to the states. I think with India it had more to do with difficulty recruiting and high turnover, not due to salaries.pmchem posted:Is there anything dumb and sneaky you can do that is still 100% legal like blow all your vacation and sick leave at the prior job to stretch the date at old job to vesting while still starting new job or would employment contracts make that a nonstarter? Lol my wife also posited this idea just get the new job and continue on at the old one (because it is remote). I feel like that would burn myself in a small industry in addition to being a bit unethical so I'd rather not. Totally could though! As an update I did ping my previous manager who will be my manager at the new place and he said a similar thing happened to him and he's on it to make me whole. Reason #298 why he's a great manager to work for and I'm feeling better about moving again. priznat fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 22:40
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A senior developer willing to work US daytime hours s majority of the time would probably be cheaper in Canada than India, and that's before factoring in the super high turnover. Lower experienced guys are way cheaper though.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:05
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How would a salaried position (IT technician) be handled overtime wise? Also things that are out of job description / not things that are useful for me to learn to advance my career, just things that are advantageous to my employer. Like i know I'm getting taken advantage of, the default work week is 45 hours and frequently longer, doing decidedly nonIT things. Small company for reference.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:10
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priznat posted:Tax wise stock options don't do anything until they can be exercised which will only happen if the company gets bought or goes public. And at that point the basic view is that it is the difference between the price of the stock it is being sold for and the strike price of the option share. For example if the company is sold or IPOs for $1 a share and you have options with strike price of 0.10 then the 90cents is taxed as a capital gain I believe. But since they have no value until the company is sold or IPOs they don't have a tax burden Options can be exercised without a liquidity event. A number of my colleagues have exercised their options. There are potentially tax advantages to doing so. The tax treatment depends on whether they are NSOs or ISOs, and the difference between strike price and the most recent 409a. Also, you need to hold your shares after exercise for it to be LTCG. But the delta between strike price and fair market value is taxable as income regardless (unless ISO, and ISO held for a year post exercise) Similarly, RSUs are taxed when they vest - even if it's a private company. Most, though not all, companies use a double trigger so that the RSUs don't "actually vest" until the liquidity event to get around adding tax burden. This also means that you usually do not have the option of receiving the vested RSUs when you leave, the way you can with options.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:09
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Learning how to say no is the most important skill you can develop in the corporate world. I set my boundaries out early, reinforce them often… and know when they need to bend to the needs of the job. For reference I’m in consulting, pretty successful at it, and have consistently averaged 40 hour weeks since I started 7 years ago, now at three different major firms. It is possible to do this even in industries that have a rep of grinding the gently caress out of you. There’s a huge caveat there though - you need to recognize what you can / should say no to and what you can’t / shouldn’t, and you need to provide sufficient value and develop sufficient trust that saying no will be accepted. Most people waste a lot of time on poo poo they don’t actually need to be doing. The value and the trust may not be there today but they will eventually come from doing the right things over time. Take some time and inventory your actual workload. Figure out what needs to be done and what doesn’t. Identify your reasonable boundaries and then do every single thing that needs to be done, first. Can you do it inside those boundaries? Great, now just always do that. Can you not? Then you need to figure out if the reason is you have too much work, not enough skill or something else, and tackle that. Explicitly getting your manager on board with you doing this is helpful but not required. I’ve worked with people on my team who are working too many hours to help them focus on what I actually care about, and most good managers would do something like that with you is you ask for help. If it’s too much work / a corporate culture of “we just all work til 9 every night” you probably just want to find a new job, but honestly most places just care about what you deliver not that you spent 69 hours this week doing it.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:15
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Great post. I’ll add in my experience that people often fall in to a trap of spending time on things they know how to do, and understand, rather than things that are important.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:30
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If there's someone out there in the world who actually accomplishes more in an 80 hour workweek than a person who aggressively manages their time, refusing to be drawn into corporate time wasting, accomplishes in 40 hours, I haven't yet met them. That's the key. You have to know exactly where to draw lines and stand firm with a "no." And you have to be willing to shut out the world, leave your phone in a different room, disconnect from The Internet entirely if possible, and actually work hard those 40 hours (really about 30, if we're honest--some wasted time is unavoidable wherever other humans have access to you). If you do that stuff, you'll spend your life and career hardly going a day without someone asking you "how do you do it???"
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Oct 27, 2023 23:34
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Realistically even really great performers are only actually producing for like 20 hours every week. If you can do 4 hours of good productive work in a day, every day, that’s pretty solid.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:38
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There's good research to suggest that in any mentally taxing form of work, you get about 4-5 hours of real all-cylinders-firing productivity per day. And that's only if you manage your energy properly. Not all work is productive work, though. There is always plenty of necessary but not creative work to do, so a total workweek of 40-ish hours makes sense. But in my experience, the people who work 70 hours, all of that extra 30 hours is essentially wasted time.
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Oct 27, 2023 23:52
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Eric the Mauve posted:There's good research to suggest that in any mentally taxing form of work, you get about 4-5 hours of real all-cylinders-firing productivity per day. And that's only if you manage your energy properly. Those extra 30 hours are just them telling everyone they worked 70 hours 
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Oct 28, 2023 00:05
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I absolutely struggle to control my time in my job. I regularly work 50-60 hour weeks, and in an average workday I would say I get 3 hours of actual work done, spend 2-3 hours in meetings of varying levels of salience, and spend 3-4 hours fielding inane calls and emails, solving problems for people who aren’t my reports in either direction, and filing endless redundant manual reports. It’s bad!
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Oct 28, 2023 00:19
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priznat posted:Those extra 30 hours are just them telling everyone they worked 70 hours It’s a full-time job! Posting memes about hustling and grinding and how everyone else just needs to do better and bootstrap harder.
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Oct 28, 2023 00:27
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Trauts posted:How would a salaried position (IT technician) be handled overtime wise? You will have to ask. My first engineering job I got paid OT if I had to work even though I was salary. My next engineering job... not so much. Different than IT but I think you just need to ask.
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Oct 28, 2023 00:32
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Trauts posted:How would a salaried position (IT technician) be handled overtime wise? Also things that are out of job description / not things that are useful for me to learn to advance my career, just things that are advantageous to my employer. Like i know I'm getting taken advantage of, the default work week is 45 hours and frequently longer, doing decidedly nonIT things. Small company for reference. you get paid the OT like normal. im salary IT as well and get time and a half after 40.
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Oct 28, 2023 03:50
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Jordan7hm posted:Realistically even really great performers are only actually producing for like 20 hours every week. If you can do 4 hours of good productive work in a day, every day, that’s pretty solid. For ICs, 4 hours of good productive work depends on setting boundaries or having a good manager willing to fight to keep your schedule clear. A day with meetings at 10am, 1pm, and 3:30pm has a low chance of producing any creative work during business hours.
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Oct 28, 2023 04:17
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