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Yeah. Certainly not when they have major preconditions even for releasing the ~15 random Thai guest workers they grabbed
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Oct 28, 2023 13:55
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I wouldnt be surprised if Israel has dropped some American munitions on all the hostages in order to blame the Hamas savages for one more thing. Unrelated- https://twitter.com/NewSovietPoster/status/1718024281940996399 BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 14:16
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anyone concerned for the hostages should be calling for a ceasefire imo
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Oct 28, 2023 14:39
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Only Israel doesnt want a ceasefire. They dont care about the hostages and have done nothing so far to free any of them. Its been all done by other parties with hamas.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:42
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punishedkissinger posted:anyone concerned for the hostages should be calling for a ceasefire imo A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:43
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Baron Porkface posted:A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages. The current strategy is bombing Gaza without knowing where said hostages are. I think a ceasefire would be immensely better for them E: glazed over your use of the word “slaves”, what the gently caress?
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Oct 28, 2023 14:46
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Baron Porkface posted:A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages. slaves?
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Oct 28, 2023 14:46
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Baron Porkface posted:A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages. What the hell, this feels like it needs more explanation. What slaves?
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Oct 28, 2023 14:46
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Baron Porkface posted:A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages. and continuing the bombardment will kill thousands of civilians and most likely all of the hostages seems like a pretty obvious choice to me!
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Oct 28, 2023 14:50
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Baron Porkface posted:A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages. So then why is the US rewarding the Zionists for keeping Gaza hostage?
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Oct 28, 2023 14:52
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BUUNNI posted:So then why is the US rewarding the Zionists for keeping Gaza hostage? Exactly. The vast majority of people in gaza are all hostages. 
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Oct 28, 2023 14:57
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socialsecurity posted:What the hell, this feels like it needs more explanation. What slaves? What do you think a hostage is?
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Oct 28, 2023 15:06
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Not a slave. What are you talking about? vvvv I thought they were calling Palestinians not in Hamas slaves but now I don't know.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:10
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Baron Porkface posted:What do you think a hostage is? Glad to see someone so quickly desert the Zionists and take the side of the people of Gaza.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:11
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 15:14
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Baron Porkface posted:What do you think a hostage is? a person held in captivity to gain leverage another party whereas a slave is a person in forced labor maybe english isnt your first language?
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Oct 28, 2023 15:15
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OctaMurk posted:a person held in captivity to gain leverage another party Forced labor is not necessary for slavery. You go learn some english. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 15:17
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[ quote="Baron Porkface" post="535571002"] Forced labor is not necessary for slavery. You go learn some english. [/quote] If every single person from either side of the debate momentarily dropped what they were saying to tell me I’d radically misused a word and sounded like I didn’t know English very well, I’d probably be reconsidering my choice of words.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:20
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Baron Porkface posted:Forced labor is not necessary for slavery. You go learn some english. Nah, sorry, you're on your own here. Nobody whatsoever uses the term 'slave' to describe hostages.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:23
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Baron Porkface posted:Forced labor is not necessary for slavery. You go learn some english. dog what the gently caress are you talking about. If you squint at the second definition, I guess, but that's also loving stupid. Anyways we wouldn't want to reward Hamas with a ceasefire so time slather more civilians in white phosphorus. Definitely punishing Hamas super hard every time we turn a nine year old into disparate body parts. Couldn't possibly be justifying Hamas's own behavior and essentially guaranteeing another round of this. why do the palestinians resort to violence against civilians, i ask, as i bomb a journalist's entire family for no clear purpose beyond collective punishment how dare Hamas take hostages the way they did. They should have used the police to illegally round people up and shove them into military camps with no accountability TGLT fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 15:23
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Baron Porkface posted:Forced labor is not necessary for slavery. You go learn some english. slave noun. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another and forced to provide unpaid labor
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Oct 28, 2023 15:27
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To be totally honest, while many aspects of the Hamas assault were indefensible, large-scale hostage-taking seems like it's a fair and reasonable tactic for the armed forces of any population subject to genocidal dehumanisation. They can only make human lives matter to the rest of the world by kidnapping people whose lives might actually matter to someone. Too much of the hand-wringing about hostages from public figures smells suspiciously of 'how dare they bring real people into this', and of loving course they're going to use that bargaining power now they actually have it.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:36
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What bargaining power? They took some hostages at the cost of all of Gaza being leveled
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Oct 28, 2023 15:39
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Everybody shut up about the definition of "slave".
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Oct 28, 2023 15:39
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This might be the most stupid derail in this thread so far, and the competition is fierce.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:43
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 15:44
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Darth Walrus posted:To be totally honest, while many aspects of the Hamas assault were indefensible, large-scale hostage-taking seems like it's a fair and reasonable tactic for the armed forces of any population subject to genocidal dehumanisation. They can only make human lives matter to the rest of the world by kidnapping people whose lives might actually matter to someone. Too much of the hand-wringing about hostages from public figures smells suspiciously of 'how dare they bring real people into this', and of loving course they're going to use that bargaining power now they actually have it. No, hostage taking is not justifiable any more than war when it results in the same collateral damage to civilians.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:49
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Darth Walrus posted:To be totally honest, while many aspects of the Hamas assault were indefensible, large-scale hostage-taking seems like it's a fair and reasonable tactic for the armed forces of any population subject to genocidal dehumanisation. They can only make human lives matter to the rest of the world by kidnapping people whose lives might actually matter to someone. Too much of the hand-wringing about hostages from public figures smells suspiciously of 'how dare they bring real people into this', and of loving course they're going to use that bargaining power now they actually have it. Even if you throw our all morality and standards for treatment of civilians the way this was executed doesn't work out. You take hostages when you either want to make demands or you want to prompt an assault to get them back. The hostages were taken very publicly so they can't demand political consessions from political actors whose relatives they have. They could demand resources but they know they will never actually get them. So at best they might prompt Israel to try and assault to get them back, which was a bad calculation on their part because Israel just ended up saturation shelling them regardless of hostages.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:50
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Young Freud posted:Grenade-dropping drones aren't a hypothetical, Hamas had video of their drones blowing up listening posts and brewing up Merkavas. Sephyr posted:Well, they got what they wanted. Once Hamas was th only game in town, they pulled out of Gaza, because it wasn't worth the headache of having a patrol ambushed every month of so and then having to negotiate prisoner exchange (And said exchanges got Hamas a lot of good PR inside the strip for freeing arrested civvies) and focused on quietly digesting the west Bank, which is the best land they can get right now. Once that was done, they could ignore or empty Gaza at their leisure. In the West Bank, there's just not that level of organization that Hamas has achieved in Gaza because Israeli troops would bust them. You live in the West Bank and smuggle in an RPG, then if the Israelis get a whiff of it, a couple of jeep loads of soldiers can show up and kick in your door. In a way, Hamas has replicated the Hezbollah model in relative security, and Hezbollah were the innovators of this model. Hezbollah is a highly innovative and creative organization based in South Beirut and southern Lebanon, and it's an all-but-officially-declared separatist region there where Hezbollah runs the schools, the hospitals, provides the security, and calls the shots.  In the West Bank, there's a constant but lower level of "friction," but from -- again this right-wing Israeli military POV -- that's preferable to nothing happening and then Gaza blowing up in a war every few years, because Israel cannot control what's going on inside. The walls are keeping them out.  This argument, of course, creates the theoretical justification for the permanent occupation of the West Bank. They don't want a Hamas-like organization taking over the West Bank, and the settlement strategy is part of this too, there's this web of Israeli settlements and the Jordan River valley to the east that's being populated with Jews (many of them armed), which creates a buffer zone between these Palestinian ghettos and Jordan. It's not peace, but it's not war, it's somewhere in between in a gray area.  One of the retired Israeli generals who advocates this is Gershon Hacochen. He's also linked with religious Zionism. His views about geopolitics are also not that pro-U.S., he has said he thinks Israel is too reliant on the U.S. and it may be better to wean Israel off U.S. aid, because much of it goes into the air force, which incentivizes Israel to try to fight wars from the air rather than on the ground through this settler-colonial armed farmer strategy. He wants balanced relations with Russia and China. And he really wants to arm as much of the civilian population as possible.  quote:“The God of the Givati Brigade,” I heard him say in the wake of the controversy surrounding one brigade commander’s pre-Gaza campaign address to his soldiers last summer, “goes to war.” He does not stay in the study hall and the synagogue, coming out only on special occasions. “I also take God with me wherever I go,” he said during our interview. “The Ashkenazim are too enlightened,” the lineally Ashkenazi and philosophically Eastern general explained, “I am not enlightened.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exyQ724_2nk
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Oct 28, 2023 15:54
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Something that is very pointedly not getting talked about is that a lot of the hostages Hamas took were IDF soldiers and officers. I keep wondering if the complete disregard of that is part of why the IDF has been so shy about entering Gaza.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:55
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Marenghi posted:It's hard not to look at what Israel is doing and not be reminded of Nazi Germany. The worst of it are the leaders who said never again, and made a big deal about WW2 history during the Ukraine war. Are all supporting Israel's "right" to genocide. It's very close to what the Nazis did to Leningrad from the cutting off of water, power, food to the indiscriminate bombing tk the language being used. And that was the greatest act of genocide in the second World War outside the genocide of Jewish people. 2 million people died in Leningrad.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:57
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Out of interest, given that peaceful protest hasn’t just been ignored but has resulted in children having their knees shot to bits with sniper fire, what do you think Palestinians are entitled to do to defend themselves from ethnic cleansing? The vibe I get from some in the thread is that it’s terrible but the Palestinians should basically just take it and hope for the best.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:00
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Darth Walrus posted:To be totally honest, while many aspects of the Hamas assault were indefensible, large-scale hostage-taking seems like it's a fair and reasonable tactic for the armed forces of any population subject to genocidal dehumanisation. They can only make human lives matter to the rest of the world by kidnapping people whose lives might actually matter to someone. Too much of the hand-wringing about hostages from public figures smells suspiciously of 'how dare they bring real people into this', and of loving course they're going to use that bargaining power now they actually have it. Stop trying to justify war crimes* * Based off of ICC and UN standards E: Jakabite posted:Out of interest, given that peaceful protest hasn’t just been ignored but has resulted in children having their knees shot to bits with sniper fire, what do you think Palestinians are entitled to do to defend themselves from ethnic cleansing? The vibe I get from some in the thread is that it’s terrible but the Palestinians should basically just take it and hope for the best. TBH, I don't know. But Hamas murdering/abducting Israeli civilians was definitely not going to help Palestine's situation. It's only given Israel an excuse to accelerate their genocide. Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:00
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Kalit posted:Stop trying to justify war crimes*
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Oct 28, 2023 16:06
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Where we talking about Gaza and the largest outdoor prison where 98 percent of its water isn't fit for human consumption, cement hasn't been legally imported since 2005, the wretched and hopeless existence of Palestinian children and babies, before 10/7? It served its function, of focusing the entire world onto it.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:07
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My opinion is that, an easy way to reduce the number of hostages taken in these incursions, would be to provide literally any other channel to negotiate the release of Palestinian hostages. """"Prisoner"""" exchanges have been the only way these men and women have been able to see the light of day. It's unsurprising that, when you only respond to one move, that the other side disproportionately uses that move.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:10
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Giggs posted:You made several posts in defence of Israel's claims that a hospital was really a secret hamas base used to justify war crimes. Where did I state that makes it okay/fair/reasonable/etc for Israel to attack Shifa hospital? I loving hope they don't, regardless if Hamas' HQ is there.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:12
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Kalit posted:TBH, I don't know. But Hamas murdering/abducting Israeli civilians was definitely not going to help Palestine's situation. It's only given Israel an excuse to accelerate their genocide. Honest question then, is it the fact you object to or just the pace?
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Oct 28, 2023 16:12
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:17
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Hamas has successfully captured soldiers in the past and used them to negotiate the release of Palestinians. Taking civilians as hostages instead (and the vast majority of the ~200 Hamas is currently holding are civilians) is an inexcusable war crime and the only reason it didn't initially get more focus is because Hamas committed so many other heinous crimes during its rampage in southern Israel. I don't know the best method to run a liberation campaign when peaceful protest fails. But I do know that brutalising every civilian you can get your hands on is, in addition to being absolutely unjustifiable from a moral perspective, a loving terrible strategy that will result in the obliteration of your organisation, the needless deaths of a large portion of the people you claim to represent and your cause being possibly irreparably damaged. Hopefully everyone else in this thread will also know that once this horrific campaign is finished. e: well done on not making this av a call to genocide I guess Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:17
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