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Kalit posted:You're not addressing my point. Which, in case you forgot, is voting for someone who supports Israel is not anymore supportive of a genocide than purchasing products/goods/services from a company who is helping further said genocide. Well I’ll be sure to stop shopping at Boeing? I guess? The main political means of influence any given American has is their vote. It seems kinda silly to say they’re not allowed to use it politically. Boeing is absolutely enabling a genocide, as much as IBM was. But it seems more rational to go after the ostensible center of power in our country, the government, to get them to stop doing that, rather than try and speak to the moral soul of an arms dealer.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:08
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selec posted:Well I’ll be sure to stop shopping at Boeing? I guess? Not voting is not going to solve the problem. It's going to make the problem worse, and also introduce new problems.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:09
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Gyges posted:You can vote enthusiastically, you can vote reluctantly, and you can vote spitefully. No matter why you're doing it, your secret ballot by it's nature is not an endorsement.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:10
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selec posted:Well I’ll be sure to stop shopping at Boeing? I guess? When looking at a minimize support of Israel perspective, why does it seem more rational to not vote for a less harmful candidate over not flying in a [Boeing] airplane? Regardless of your [non-D/R] vote, a candidate you disapprove of will still be elected. If you stop flying, Boeing will lose out on that money. Seems to me like one will make no difference and the other will make a (tiny) difference.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:12
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World Famous W posted:if you put a tally next to a name, even if no one else knows you did it, it is an endorsement . that vote will still be counted This is a rather infantile view of voting in modern America, but this thread DOES like their absolutes. Edit: Y'all are gonna have a LOT of explaining to do to my grandchildren!
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Oct 28, 2023 17:13
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Shadowlyger posted:Not voting is not going to solve the problem. It's going to make the problem worse. *Terms and conditions certainly do apply. I’m in a red state, if that helps. But I wouldn’t vote for more genocide if I was in a blue state, either. Some things on the “making it worse” or “making it slightly less worse” checklist are non-negotiable at this point for me and it seems like other Americans. That’s a problem for the party to solve if they want those votes. We’re back to the classic “your position is very unpopular” paired with “but your small, minority position is also required for us to win” dilemma for Dems. They gotta make a choice, I think we all know what choice they’re most likely to make, and so we can use that information to make our own choices.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:14
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selec posted:*Terms and conditions certainly do apply. I’m in a red state, if that helps. But I wouldn’t vote for more genocide if I was in a blue state, either. Some things on the “making it worse” or “making it slightly less worse” checklist are non-negotiable at this point for me and it seems like other Americans. That’s a problem for the party to solve if they want those votes. Not voting for democrats is voting for more genocide. Because the Republican party wants to bring the genocide here.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:16
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mutata posted:This is a rather infantile view of voting in modern America, but this thread DOES like their absolutes. just as your ballot is secret, as is your reasoning. you don't get a little line to fill in saying 'im voting for harm reduction'. it is only going to be a binary yay/nay that will ever be seen
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Oct 28, 2023 17:17
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Shadowlyger posted:Not voting for democrats is voting for more genocide. Because the Republican party wants to bring the genocide here. I’m not going to lend you a genocide now to prevent a genocide next Tuesday. That doesn’t seem like a smart deal to make, because I’m at minimum supporting one genocide, which is already like four too many.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:17
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theCalamity posted:I don’t see how voting for people who support Israel as they genocide Palestinians helps the Palestinians. You’re gonna have to explain that to me. If you can't see the difference between "I support your right to defend yourself but not your right to indiscriminately kill civilians" and "there are no civilians just terrorist supporting animals who should be eradicated" I can't help you.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:18
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selec posted:I’m not going to lend you a genocide now to prevent a genocide next Tuesday. That doesn’t seem like a smart deal to make, because I’m at minimum supporting one genocide, which is already like four too many. Not voting isn't going to stop the current genocide, but it is going to lead to the second one.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:20
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World Famous W posted:if you put a tally next to a name, even if no one else knows you did it, it is an endorsement . that vote will still be counted An endorsement is a public declaration of support or recommendation. Since there is a wide array of reasons to vote, which include non-supportive ones, and votes are explicitly secret, a vote is not an endorsement.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:20
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Skex posted:If you can't see the difference between "Israel's right to defend itself" is code for "there are no civilians just terrorist supporting animals who should be eradicated". They are identical statements.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:21
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selec posted:I’m not going to lend you a genocide now to prevent a genocide next Tuesday. Sorry, what?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:21
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Gyges posted:An endorsement is a public declaration of support or recommendation. Since there is a wide array of reasons to vote, which include non-supportive ones, and votes are explicitly secret, a vote is not an endorsement.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:21
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Sorry, what? https://youtu.be/68eue5cpbsE?si=1MsUzjk50XP-E6wi
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Oct 28, 2023 17:23
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Skex posted:If you can't see the difference between Biden is saying the first one, but he is still supporting Israel as they indiscriminately kill civilians. The White House is not imposing limits on Israel and said that there is no red line for them. Biden wants to give Israel more money so that they can genocide Palestinians. Biden himself dismissed the number of deaths from Gaza's Ministry of Health. He is fully behind Israel and his actions are speaking louder than his words
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Oct 28, 2023 17:29
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Edit: You know what, nevermind. I'm just being an rear end in a top hat. Carry on.
mutata fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 17:31
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Joe Biden saying "I support your right to defend yourself but not your right to indiscriminately kill civilians" while asking Congress for billions in funding for military aid that would allow Israel to continue to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians makes me think that Joe Biden supports Israel indiscriminately killing Palestinian civilians.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:41
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World Famous W posted:honest question to the vbnmw proponents. is there any action both parties can take that will get you to write both off? can the lesser evil become too evil in itself to even support? This obsession with what the parties are doing is the core problem here, honestly. The reason the parties don't support the things we want is because the American population in general doesn't support the things that we want. If we build support for those things, then at least one of the parties will shift. Actually voting, by itself, is not an effective method of meaningfully shifting politics. If you can't find sufficient candidates who reflect your views, that's because your views are not popular enough. According to YouGov polling, only 18% of Americans think Israel's current actions toward Gaza are too harsh. 22% think that Israel's current actions aren't harsh enough, and 35% think they're just right. Even if you cut out the Trump voters and look only at Biden voters, only 30% of Biden voters answered "too harsh", vs 45% answering "just right" or "not harsh enough". That's not exactly an overwhelming consensus against Israel's current actions. As for general backing of Israel, Biden voters were 47-23 in favor of continuing to send financial aid to Israel, and 59-21 in favor of sending humanitarian aid to Palestine. And most importantly, a whopping 70% of Biden voters said that "protecting Israel" was important (with half of them ranking it as Very Important) and 51% said that Hamas was a "serious threat" to the US (with 38% ranking it as an immediate and very serious threat). All those numbers line up pretty well with Biden's current stance toward Israel: pushing for the border to be opened for humanitarian aid, but still continuing to financially support Israel with no real pressure against them other than insistent scolding not backed up by action, and simultaneously calling for the complete destruction of Hamas by any means. It's pretty clear that in general, the American people does not think that the events in Gaza are a genocide, and even among Democratic voters it's still very much the minority view. But the magic secret to electoral politics is that if we shift the opinions of the voters, then the electoral situation can change even before election day. If the electorate becomes more pro-Palestine, then some sitting politicians will shift their position toward Palestine, and more pro-Palestine candidates will show up as options in races. And the nice thing about this is that since it doesn't actually have any direct relationship to voting, you can build the political pressure against Israel while still voting for the least transphobic candidate in each and every election, instead of crossing your arms and saying that you don't care what happens to trans people as long as Dems support Israel.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:43
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Main Paineframe posted:This obsession with what the parties are doing is the core problem here, honestly. The reason the parties don't support the things we want is because the American population in general doesn't support the things that we want. If we build support for those things, then at least one of the parties will shift. Actually voting, by itself, is not an effective method of meaningfully shifting politics. If you can't find sufficient candidates who reflect your views, that's because your views are not popular enough. The vast majority of Democratic voters support a cease fire, and there is majority support for a cease fire across party lines:  And yet, not even Bernie Sanders is calling for a cease fire. Some Democratic senators, as posted above, are even going so far as to suggest that the Palestinians wouldn't be better off with a cease fire--that the Palestinians getting bombed indiscriminately is better off than the alternative.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:48
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Main Paineframe posted:clipped also, the question was if there would approach a point were you could no longer support the party
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Oct 28, 2023 17:51
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https://twitter.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1718076616956694604 https://web.archive.org/web/20231028012605/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/27/biden-israel-palestine-muslim-americans-war/ quote:One ripple effect of the Israel-Gaza war is the warp-speed unraveling of relations between President Biden and some of his most loyal voters: Muslims and Arab Americans. quote:Incensed U.S. Arab and Muslim advocacy groups this week called Biden’s remarks about the death count dangerous, and some prominent voices from those communities chimed in on social media saying that the president had lost them and that they were considering sitting out the 2024 election. quote:At one point, the officials asked how many people in the room knew someone from Gaza. Nearly everyone raised their hands. Next came a more uncomfortable question: How many of those in the room had been pressured by friends or relatives to resign from the administration in recent days? Again, most hands shot up. That last part is just thoughts and prayers. People who would most likely vote for Democrats are now rethinking their support for Biden because of his actions. It's incredibly privileged to tell them that if they don't support Biden as he backs the genocidal regime in Israel against their own families, that they're supporting Republicans.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:53
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Main Paineframe posted:This obsession with what the parties are doing is the core problem here, honestly. The reason the parties don't support the things we want is because the American population in general doesn't support the things that we want. If we build support for those things, then at least one of the parties will shift. Actually voting, by itself, is not an effective method of meaningfully shifting politics. If you can't find sufficient candidates who reflect your views, that's because your views are not popular enough. How does this theory account for the illegal status of cannabis in the face of longstanding bipartisan majority support?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:53
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World Famous W posted:i do groundwork. i work a ged program and a foodbank. i talk up my beliefs and the policies i think will improve the lives of those im helping while doing it. everyone here needs to stop falling back on that those who disagree must obviously not being doing anything else I think everyone's ignoring it because it's an asinine question. Sure if the Democrats promised to murder me if I voted for them I wouldn't support them anymore. If they changed their platform to "nuke the whales" I wouldn't support them. If they changed their platform to "literally the same as Republicans in every way" I wouldn't support them. As it is their platform is currently "not as bad as Republicans" in a lot of ways that matter deeply to me and mine, so I push left in primaries and support them in the general. As most posters here try to do and have said repeatedly. Why is that so hard to understand.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:54
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Tatsuta Age posted:I think everyone's ignoring it because it's an asinine question. Sure if the Democrats promised to murder me if I voted for them I wouldn't support them anymore. If they changed their platform to "nuke the whales" I wouldn't support them. If they changed their platform to "literally the same as Republicans in every way" I wouldn't support them.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:01
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Tatsuta Age posted:I think everyone's ignoring it because it's an asinine question. Sure if the Democrats promised to murder me if I voted for them I wouldn't support them anymore. If they changed their platform to "nuke the whales" I wouldn't support them. If they changed their platform to "literally the same as Republicans in every way" I wouldn't support them. I always figured the reason why voting for the leftmost viable candidate gets strawmanned as a mocking singsong "Vote Blue No Matter Who" was because that way you can set up an insane hypothetical where the Republicans are going to outflank the Dems to the left.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:02
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Main Paineframe posted:This obsession with what the parties are doing is the core problem here, honestly. The reason the parties don't support the things we want is because the American population in general doesn't support the things that we want. I think this is only true for some things, and not others.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:04
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Killer robot posted:I always figured the reason why voting for the leftmost viable candidate gets strawmanned as a mocking singsong "Vote Blue No Matter Who" was because that way you can set up an insane hypothetical where the Republicans are going to outflank the Dems to the left.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:04
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theCalamity posted:Biden is saying the first one, but he is still supporting Israel as they indiscriminately kill civilians. The White House is not imposing limits on Israel and said that there is no red line for them. Biden wants to give Israel more money so that they can genocide Palestinians. Biden himself dismissed the number of deaths from Gaza's Ministry of Health. He is fully behind Israel and his actions are speaking louder than his words I've seen full throated support of Israel, this is a change from has come before. Unlike you who seems to have only become aware of the ongoing program of ethnic cleansing that Israel has been engaged in for more than 70 loving years I've been pissed about it from the moment I became aware of it in the loving 80s. Biden's stance and actions as little as they may be is different and frankly a huge shift from what has come before. There is way to much institutional inertia in US foreign policy for any President to make the kind of shift you are suggesting should be the litmus test. It's just not going to happen and if he tried we'd be watching impeachment proceedings before the week was out. But American public opinion is shifting and a huge part of why it's shifting is precisely because Israel is being so blatant in their genocide. What do you think the objective of Hamas's attack was? It was to provoke an emotional overreaction. Hamas doesn't have the numbers, money, weapons and materials to prevail in a protracted or even brief conventional conflict. Biden is just giving Isreal the rope to hang themselves. Also while I do strenuously oppose and object to Israel's treatment of Palestinians I also recognize that Israel exists and don't want to see Israelis erased from existence either. It's a complex situation with a lot of pain, bad blood and ill intent on both sides because let's get real Iran and Russia aren't propping up Hamas because they give a gently caress about Palestinians they're doing it because they believe doing so serves their geopolitical interests. That said it's going to be Israel's disregard of Biden's cautions about avoiding civilian casualties that's going to turn US public sentiment against them and Biden will be able to say "I'm really sorry, I warned you but ya didn't listen and while I consider you a friend the American people have spoken." It sucks and it would be great if we could avoid the whole killing a bunch of innocent people to get there but it's how this stuff works. One thing that I am certain of is that Republicans give zero fucks about dead brown people and a Republican President would probably be trying to deploy US troops to assist in the genocide.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:05
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The Top G posted:How does this theory account for the illegal status of cannabis in the face of longstanding bipartisan majority support? There are lots of voters who answer yes to survey questions asking if cannabis should be legal, but don't prioritize it in their voting patterns (mostly by voting Republican in federal elections, but sometimes by voting against pro-legalization candidates in Democratic primaries). Less important, but legalizing cannabis is also more complicated than the "stroke of a pen" some political commentators (who are lying) describe. Skex posted:One thing that I am certain of is that Republicans give zero fucks about dead brown people and a Republican President would probably be trying to deploy US troops to assist in the genocide. They might have their hands full with invading Mexico
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Oct 28, 2023 18:13
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Skex posted:I've seen full throated support of Israel, this is a change from has come before. Unlike you who seems to have only become aware of the ongoing program of ethnic cleansing that Israel has been engaged in for more than 70 loving years I've been pissed about it from the moment I became aware of it in the loving 80s. quote:That said it's going to be Israel's disregard of Biden's cautions about avoiding civilian casualties that's going to turn US public sentiment against them and Biden will be able to say "I'm really sorry, I warned you but ya didn't listen and while I consider you a friend the American people have spoken." quote:White House national security spokesperson John Kirby, at a news briefing, would not comment on the Israeli expanded ground operation. But he said Washington supported Israel's right to defend itself after Hamas militants killed 1,400 people in southern Israel on Oct. 7. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-not-drawing-red-lines-israel-white-house-2023-10-27/ Their cautions and concerns for civilian casualties and collateral damage mean nothing if they will continue to support Israel no matter what.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:16
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World Famous W posted:then we stand the same, except i already hit that limit of non support What outcome are you expecting to get from this non-support?
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Oct 28, 2023 18:25
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None because my single vote doesn't ever change an outcome.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:27
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Shadowlyger posted:What outcome are you expecting to get from this non-support?
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Oct 28, 2023 18:34
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B B posted:The vast majority of Democratic voters support a cease fire, and there is majority support for a cease fire across party lines: I'm sorry if I gave you the mistaken impression that this was some kind of quick and easy process where politicians would instantly change their minds. It's not like one poll shows majority support and all the sitting politicians immediately change their positions. It's a slow reaction to a wide political consensus. And the fact that your poll differs so much from mine shows that there isn't really a wide consensus in favor of Palestine. Now, on the subject of this particular poll: that is one hell of a push-poll question right there. It's heavily loaded, with the clear intention of influencing people to answer in a particular direction. I thought Data for Progress (despite being a known political advocacy group with strong ideological motivations) was better than that, at least when it comes to its actual polling. I don't think I've ever seen a poll question quite so dedicated to influencing its own answer, though I'll admit that I don't usually read polls from right-wing thinktanks. I'm actually going to take a break from electoralism talk and pick apart this question for us, because it is practically a dictionary example of a push polling question. First of all, this is actually asking a number of different things, all combined into a single question. It asks if the US should call for a ceasefire in Gaza, it asks if the US should call for "a de-escalation of violence in Gaza", and it asks whether the US should "leverage its close diplomatic relationship with Israel to prevent further violence and civilian deaths". Those are all separate things, but the question intentionally lumps them together to link them in the voters' minds. That people are likely to say yes to "preventing civilian deaths", in a vacuum, isn't actually useful information. Plenty of Americans said "yes" to preventing civilian casualties while supporting aggressive and bloody invasions in the War on Terror. Moreover, if you discard your preconceived notions and look at the question closely from the standpoint of somebody who doesn't really know what's going on in Gaza right now, you'll see that the question is actually quite vague, and intentionally so. Just from reading the question alone, with no prior knowledge to fall back on other than the basic American mainstream perception of the Palestinian situation to what is happening in Gaza, you would come away with a drastically misleading interpretation of what's going on. All the question really says is that there's some violence going on in Gaza and that the US has a close diplomatic relationship with Israel. It clearly avoids words and phrases that might increase the chances of a negative response from respondents, while going out of its way to load up the question with words and phrases that might increase the chances of a positive response. It doesn't tell readers who's responsible for the violence or who the ceasefire would be between; in fact, it carefully avoids linking Israel to the violence, and it doesn't mention "Hamas" or "Palestinians" at all. And of course, Americans are always ready to say yes to "preventing civilian deaths" in the abstract, even though in practice they hardly see any reason for a first-world country to stop bombing Arabs over it. For someone who doesn't know in detail what Israel's been doing since Oct 7th, the question could very easily be misinterpreted as a call for a ceasefire to stop Hamas violence against Israeli civilians. After all, that's the default American assumption about how things go in the Middle East, and the poll carefully avoids correcting them on that misunderstanding. At no point does the question clearly state that it's talking about a ceasefire to stop Israel's violence. With how heavily Data For Progress loaded their question, it's no shock that they also got a lot fewer "Don't Know" responses than YouGov's series of Israel/Palestine questions did. World Famous W posted:i do groundwork. i work a ged program and a foodbank. i talk up my beliefs and the policies i think will improve the lives of those im helping while doing it. everyone here needs to stop falling back on that those who disagree must obviously not being doing anything else Referring to voting as "support" is pretty silly. I'd reserve the word "support" for things like donations, phonebanking, and door-knocking - poo poo that takes more time and effort than a ten-minute stopover to fill in a bubble on a piece of paper every two or four years. By that definition, I don't support "the party", I support individual candidates. However, every two or four years I'll still show up and vote for the major party that's clearly less likely to lead to worse outcomes for me, for vulnerable people, and for Americans in general. You might find the lesser of two evils to still be morally abhorrent, but the greater of two evils is still worse by definition, and casting a vote against them takes basically no time and effort.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:52
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"Do you support x candidate" is the general way to ask if someone is voting for a candidate. It's not weird to call voting for someone support.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Referring to voting as "support" is pretty silly. I'd reserve the word "support" for things like donations, phonebanking, and door-knocking - poo poo that takes more time and effort than a ten-minute stopover to fill in a bubble on a piece of paper every two or four years. By that definition, I don't support "the party", I support individual candidates. However, every two or four years I'll still show up and vote for the major party that's clearly less likely to lead to worse outcomes for me, for vulnerable people, and for Americans in general. You might find the lesser of two evils to still be morally abhorrent, but the greater of two evils is still worse by definition, and casting a vote against them takes basically no time and effort.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Referring to voting as "support" is pretty silly. I'd reserve the word "support" for things like donations, phonebanking, and door-knocking - poo poo that takes more time and effort than a ten-minute stopover to fill in a bubble on a piece of paper every two or four years. By that definition, I don't support "the party", I support individual candidates. However, every two or four years I'll still show up and vote for the major party that's clearly less likely to lead to worse outcomes for me, for vulnerable people, and for Americans in general. You might find the lesser of two evils to still be morally abhorrent, but the greater of two evils is still worse by definition, and casting a vote against them takes basically no time and effort. A lot of people use support when talking about voting for someone. It’s pretty common.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:00
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Main Paineframe posted:Now, on the subject of this particular poll: that is one hell of a push-poll question right there. It's heavily loaded, with the clear intention of influencing people to answer in a particular direction. Yeah. The issue of what the democrats are clearly NOT doing to try to stop absolute carnage in Palestine entirely aside, that poll is a classic example of cheap tricks to outrage people and/or drive a narrative by pretending you're running a scientific poll. Of course, this is starting to become so common that it's hardly worth pointing out anymore, but still, that one's wearing its push polling technique rather boldly on its sleeve there
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Oct 28, 2023 19:01
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