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Kalit posted:Where did I state that makes it okay/fair/reasonable/etc for Israel to attack Shifa hospital? I loving hope they don't, regardless if Hamas' HQ is there. Kalit posted:So, yea, while it's impossible to 100% prove that it's the HQ, it seems extremely likely that it is. Or at least was up until at least 2014. If in 2003 someone expressed incredulity to the presidents claims of yellow cake which would later be used to justify the countless murders of innocent civilians you came in and posted "well we can't prove that saddam doesn't want nuclear weapons because yellow cake could be an indication of that goal" I would be similarly aggrieved. That's why I viewed your complaint of the other poster as ironic. Also, I believe I was mistaken about the number of posts, it seems to have been just the one, not the several I claimed. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 18:20
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Mean Baby posted:While some civilians died, which is a tragedy, they appear to have been predominantly within crossfire. You're saying when Hamas killed almost 300 people at a music festival, it was mostly just accidental crossfire?
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Oct 28, 2023 18:20
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mannerup posted:you are going to need to back up these extraordinary claims with sources, just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so I don’t “need” to do anything, you can google the accounts for yourself, but here are a couple. https://new.thecradle.co/articles/what-really-happened-on-7th-october https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
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Oct 28, 2023 18:21
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Irony Be My Shield posted:An alternative version of the October 7th attacks that focused on military targets, rather than villages and a concert, would not be worthy of condemnation and might have been an effective tactic to put pressure on Israel. Sadly we know this is not what occurred, due to video evidence that Hamas itself recorded and posted to social media. Hamas has done this before and it still resulted in collective punishment. Israel does not care.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:23
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:You're saying when Hamas killed almost 300 people at a music festival, it was mostly just accidental crossfire? It is unfortunate but if the brave freedom fighters hadn't decapitated that Thai national with a shovel the IDF would have overrun their position.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:27
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 18:28
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Also for everyone who thinks it's very important to make sure they have put out their personal statements condemning Hamas, how often do you do the same for Israel? Do you occasionally make sure to condemn and denounce them on a schedule? For each individual action? Do you think those have helped the conflict? It seems incredibly important to some people to make sure that they've morally denounced Hamas so I want to understand what value comes from it.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:29
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I said come in! posted:Hamas has done this before and it still resulted in collective punishment. Israel does not care. In the past, the Israel government was extremely sensitive towards captured IDF soldiers and in the past did reluctantly negotiate including the release of prisoners. Hamas initiated this attack so much that it completely pierced Israel security knowing all too well they would likely overreact and did so during a time while historic negotiations where underway between Israel, Saudi Arabi and the Palestinians. While it is true that maybe nothing would have come out of this agreement there is zero reason for them to be interrupted in such a mannor. The entire world is going to loss decades of progress in the Middle East with everyone not only hating each other but yet another brutal war.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:58
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:In the past, the Israel government was extremely sensitive towards captured IDF soldiers and in the past did reluctantly negotiate including the release of prisoners. Hamas initiated this attack so much that it completely pierced Israel security knowing all too well they would likely overreact and did so during a time while historic negotiations where underway between Israel, Saudi Arabi and the Palestinians. The deal between Israel and the Saudis did not include anything for the Palestinians. They were thrown under the bus by all accounts. The Palestinians have no reason to care when the future of the Middle East does not include them.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:02
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Mean Baby posted:I don’t “need” to do anything, you can google the accounts for yourself, but here are a couple. Has anyone actually read this Cradle article? I can understand trying to justify a position but this is close to Loose Change.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:10
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Gumball Gumption posted:Also for everyone who thinks it's very important to make sure they have put out their personal statements condemning Hamas, how often do you do the same for Israel? Do you occasionally make sure to condemn and denounce them on a schedule? For each individual action? Do you think those have helped the conflict? I haven't seen much discussion supporting Israel's actions. I have seen discussion downplaying Hamas's actions, like the very recent post about how they mostly attacked military targets. That may be why you are seeing people push for condemnations of Hamas and not for condemnations of Israel: people in this thread generally aren't trying to whitewash or downplay Israel's obvious atrocities.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:11
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I said come in! posted:The deal between Israel and the Saudis did not include anything for the Palestinians. They were thrown under the bus by all accounts. The Palestinians have no reason to care when the future of the Middle East does not include them. This is not true. We don't what they included or didn't include as they were still underway but it's quite likely they would have gotten something out of it but due to the actions of Hamas even a slim chance of peace is effectively ruined. U.S. tells Israel mega-deal with Saudis must include concessions to Palestinians Blinken: Saudi-Israel normalization "should advance wellbeing" of Palestinians Senior Biden adviser heading to Saudi Arabia to talk mega-deal with Palestinians Saudi Crown Prince: Palestinians should take what the U.S. offers quote:Regardless of all his criticism of the Palestinian leadership, MBS also made clear that in order for Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states to normalize relations with Israel there will have to be significant progress on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:13
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:This is not true. I read through the links that weren't broken and theres no mention of any concrete policy that would be a concession to the Palestinians, except for their desire to be recognized as a full member state at the UN, which was rejected. And the last article is the Saudis telling Palestine to shut up and take whats given to them. So that sort of sounds like lip service rather than anything tangible, to me at least.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:18
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Lid posted:Has anyone actually read this Cradle article? I can understand trying to justify a position but this is close to Loose Change. I have read this article, and what is wrong with if? Seems very reasonable to me, and Israel has a history of lying and fabricating evidence. Civilized Fishbot posted:Probably for the same reason that virtually every poster in this thread has declaimed against the IDF: genuine disgust at wanton war crimes and butchery of innocent people. The reason why this is not validating israel is because they were already committing atrocities before hamas. Nothing actually changed with hamas coming into power. Israel got more brutal, but that was going to happen regardless. Israel has always had a plan to kill all Palestinians since day 1. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 19:19
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Gumball Gumption posted:It seems incredibly important to some people to make sure that they've morally denounced Hamas so I want to understand what value comes from it. Probably for the same reason that virtually every poster in this thread has declaimed against the IDF: genuine disgust at wanton war crimes and butchery of innocent people. Of course for the Westerners here in this thread, there's nothing to do practically but demand Israel cease-fire. We have infinitesimal influence over what Israel does, but zero influence over Hamas (except for how Israel's actions influence Hamas). Some people think this means discussing the moral mistakes of Hamas is a waste of time, and they're basically right. But this isn't a strategy meeting, it's mostly just people wasting our time venting and speculating, so of course that'll include venting our disgust at the militia that did a horrible atrocity which has now provoked an even more horrible atrocity. Not that you were saying this, this is just a related thought: those saying "who are we to criticize Hamas, this is the natural form of resistance for anyone in the position of the Palestinians" are just validating the right-wing Israeli effort to eliminate all other forms of Palestinian organization or resistance while supporting Hamas. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 19:20
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On the top of prisoners/hostages and swaps, this seems significant: https://x.com/reider/status/1718325064053952866?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Tweet author appears to be a fairly prominent and reliable journalist with a long string of writing credits in high-profile publications.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:20
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I said come in! posted:I have read this article, and what is wrong with if? Seems very reasonable to me, and Israel has a history of lying and fabricating evidence. It explicitly and implicitly, which is remarkable, asseses that it was a full military operation and that civilian deaths were minimal or incidental including statements that Israel framed Hamas by killing their own people in kibbutz. The reason I'm comparing it to Loose Change is you need to accept the premise of "history of lying and fa ricating evidence" to be that you extend that to denying evidence so as to conclude its almost a false flag attack. I've read it twice now and it's just alternate universe level dissociation. You can go far on how Usrael is an apartheid state and the ongoing genocidal war effort is wrong on its face but trying to reframe October 7th as something approaching a false flag because "Israel WOULD do that" is denying so much supporting documentation to work backwards from a conclusion.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:30
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Gumball Gumption posted:What does it actually mean for some random nobody in the West to condemn and denounce the tactics of Hamas? How are you condemning them? Who are you denouncing them to? To flip this around, what does it actually mean for some random nobody in the West to condemn and denounce the tactics of Israel? How are you condemning them? Who are you denouncing them to? What does it actually mean for some random nobody in the West to justify and endorse the tactics of Hamas? How are you justifying them? Who are you endorsing them to? What is the importance of these personal statements on approval or disapproval of tactics in a conflict we have nothing to do with? The answer, of course, is that all the posts in this thread don't matter at all, because we're random nobodies debating and discussing things on the internet. And morality and ethics are some of the things we debate and discuss here. What tactics are and aren't morally justified? Are there circumstances that justify the use of morally unjustifiable tactics? If those circumstances exist, should those normally-unjustifiable tactics be considered totally justified or sad-but-unavoidable atrocities? What should one side do if the other side is using morally unjustifiable tactics? What is the responsibility of the international community if one side is using morally unjustifiable tactics? Does that change if both sides are using morally unjustifiable tactics? Does that change if there's mitigating circumstances? And so on. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a debate and discussion about those things here in D&D. fool of sound posted:Again, what do you think should happen in this specific case? The atrocities have happened and are ongoing so how do you think your categorical imperative should be enforced? What should happen to Hamas and Israel for their crimes against civilians, both to punish the transgressions and prevent future ones? I don't think "war is bad" is shitposting, and I certainly don't think that saying "committing atrocities against civilians is wrong as a categorical imperative" is shitposting. You may disagree with the statement for any variety of reasons, or you might think that moral and ethical analysis isn't particularly relevant to events on the ground right now, but that doesn't mean it's shitposting.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:30
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Lid posted:Has anyone actually read this Cradle article? I can understand trying to justify a position but this is close to Loose Change. The Cradle article posts receipts throughout, every piece of red text there is a link to the source for the claim. This seems unfairly dismissive. Lid posted:It explicitly and implicitly, which is remarkable, asseses that it was a full military operation and that civilian deaths were minimal or incidental including statements that Israel framed Hamas by killing their own people in kibbutz. The reason I'm comparing it to Loose Change is you need to accept the premise of "history of lying and fa ricating evidence" to be that you extend that to denying evidence so as to conclude its almost a false flag attack. I've read it twice now and it's just alternate universe level dissociation. You can go far on how Usrael is an apartheid state and the ongoing genocidal war effort is wrong on its face but trying to reframe October 7th as something approaching a false flag because "Israel WOULD do that" is denying so much supporting documentation to work backwards from a conclusion. This is not the conclusion of the article at all. Nowhere does it affirm that it's a false flag attack. It calls for a full and impartial investigation. It puts forth evidence that Israel has a problem with friendly fire, and that they have a reason to lie about it and states that we should not accept the Israeli story at face value. I feel like you're reading what you want to read into the article in order to dismiss it entirely, which I still do not think is fair. Noise Complaint fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 19:36
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:This is not true. The extent of concessions would have been deferred interest loans to minority business owners that qualify. Hard to see anything else on the table given demonstrated US policy over the past few weeks.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:39
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Does the IDF still publish names of all soldiers who died? They definitely did it in the first days after the attack https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-releases-names-of-16-more-soldiers-killed-in-gaza-war-official-toll-at-73/ They also mentioned one soldier who died in the probing attack this week, and three more who died yesterday, but without naming them. The total official number of military losses should be around 300 now, if I collated everything correctly.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:41
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celadon posted:I read through the links that weren't broken and theres no mention of any concrete policy that would be a concession to the Palestinians, except for their desire to be recognized as a full member state at the UN, which was rejected. And the last article is the Saudis telling Palestine to shut up and take whats given to them. So that sort of sounds like lip service rather than anything tangible, to me at least. I never said there was a concrete policy. We don't know if there is or isn't one but we do know there were potential efforts underway. The only people who know anything are the diplomats involved because negations where still underway. This is also widely different over the last eight years because the Palestinians didn't bother working with the Trump Administration or he didn't bother even getting their perspective. Hamas's recent actions completely removed even a slim chance of peace. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 19:45
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Noise Complaint posted:The Cradle article posts receipts throughout, every piece of red text there is a link to the source for the claim. This seems unfairly dismissive. It really doesn't, I'm looking through this for receipts and a lot is unsorted reinterpretation. This itself is a first quote:Even at the Israeli “peace rave”, which has been cited as the single deadliest attack committed by Palestinian fighters during their operation, videos emerged that appeared to show Israeli forces opening fire through a crowd of unarmed civilians, toward targets they believed to be Hamas members. ABC News also reported that an Israeli tank had headed to the site of the festival. Unless the IDF got themselves sone paragliders. Hell the end of it makes clear this is not a news report it's an opinion piece "The views expressed in this article do not necessarily reflect those of The Cradle". And a lot doesn't even cover October 7th. It's not unfairly dismissive.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:46
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Lid posted:It really doesn't, I'm looking through this for receipts and a lot is unsorted reinterpretation. This itself is a first Could you provide the exact examples, please, and why you are dismissing them? Each piece of red text is a link to the information the author was using while writing the article.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:48
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Honest question: how likely is this to turn into a forever war like the one America was in with Afghanistan until this year? Is it possible for this conflict to last decades? I'm asking because from where I'm standing much like the war in Afghanistan there doesn't seem to be a clear "win" state in the Gaza strip beyond long term occupation of the native population or completely wiping them out. I hope I don't come off as to detached, I'm horrified by all of this and wish an immediate ceasefire would happen, I'm just trying to figure out if the situation over there is really going the way I think it is. I apologize if this has already been discussed, I haven't read through the entire thread.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:48
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It already is OP - it's been going for well over 70 years at this point and the ongoing hostilities ramping up show no signs of it decaying off into peace. You now also have multiple generations of, for the lack of a better term, indoctrinated people who seriously loathe the other and will likely resort to clashes well beyond the now. Furthermore you have this ring circus around the whole issue in the West where it's just kinda keep tabs on it but keep enough distance to not actually be involved.
Diet Crack fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 19:49
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I haven't seen much discussion supporting Israel's actions. I have seen discussion downplaying Hamas's actions, like the very recent post about how they mostly attacked military targets.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:50
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Honest question: how likely is this to turn into a forever war like the one America was in with Afghanistan until this year? Is it possible for this conflict to last decades? I'm asking because from where I'm standing much like the war in Afghanistan there doesn't seem to be a clear "win" state in the Gaza strip beyond long term occupation of the native population or completely wiping them out. I hope I don't come off as to detached, I'm horrified by all of this and wish an immediate ceasefire would happen, I'm just trying to figure out if the situation over there is really going the way I think it is. Depends on what Israel wants to do with the Gaza strip... If they try to occupy it as it is then yeah, we're going to be seeing resistance forever, as long as there are angry young palestinians around - so it'd be insane if they actually tried that. If they just want to move in and bulldozer it and then leave to go back behind their walls, then that is their "win state". One possibility is that they take over a part of Gaza and build new walls around that area too I guess.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:55
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Darth Walrus posted:On the top of prisoners/hostages and swaps, this seems significant: It's being reported by Reuters now too. It uses gentler and more restrained language to describe it, but the actual substance is similar: quote:TEL AVIV, Israel, Oct 28 (Reuters) - The families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip have been racked with worry for their loved ones since the military stepped up ground assaults inside the Palestinian territory, a group lobbying for the families said on Saturday. It remains to be seen whether this will actually have any political impact. Netanyahu clearly seems to think he doesn't really need the support of the hostages' families, and I don't think they have the independent political backing necessary to seriously push for a concession of that size. I suspect that when it comes down to it, the concerns of the hostages' families will be ignored, and that Israel will wage war in the hostages' names without seriously attempting to get them back. In fact, we're already seeing the first fruits of the opposition's stupidity here. The only real contender against Netanyahu for the PM position is Gantz, but Gantz accepted Netanyahu's offer to join a unity government and be a member of a special military cabinet. That leaves him in a very poor position to criticize the war, but doesn't give him actual control of the war (since the actual Minister of Defense is still a Likud member). It's basically the same mistake Labor made in the early-00s: responding to a crisis by joining a Likud-led unity government during a crisis means that they share responsibility for Likud's actions during said crisis and can't credibly criticize Likud's mistakes. If Netanyahu and Gallant are deadset on ignoring the hostages, Gantz can't stop them, but he's not principled enough to pull out of the government and return to the opposition over it, so he'll end up saddled with a share of the blame for it and won't dare to attack Likud on it. Space Cadet Omoly posted:Honest question: how likely is this to turn into a forever war like the one America was in with Afghanistan until this year? Is it possible for this conflict to last decades? I'm asking because from where I'm standing much like the war in Afghanistan there doesn't seem to be a clear "win" state in the Gaza strip beyond long term occupation of the native population or completely wiping them out. I hope I don't come off as to detached, I'm horrified by all of this and wish an immediate ceasefire would happen, I'm just trying to figure out if the situation over there is really going the way I think it is. Very unlikely. Unlike America's all-volunteer military, the Israeli military is mostly conscripts and reservists, so it can't really sustain a prolonged ground invasion the same way. The political cost of military casualties is higher than in the US, and the economic impact of maintaining full mobilization for significant periods is high. Israeli ground invasions into Gaza typically last a few weeks at most before they pull back out and return to the status quo. This one will likely be a bit longer and more intense than previous operations, but probably no longer than a few months before they pull out and leave the smoldering ruins to the Gazans. While they've occupied Gaza in the long-term before, they pulled out in 2005 because it was too costly and difficult. It's unlikely they'd be so foolish as to take a second crack at that.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:56
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Noise Complaint posted:Could you provide the exact examples, please, and why you are dismissing them? Each piece of red text is a link to the information the author was using while writing the article. Take for example "An Israeli massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri?" where the red text us about artillery resembling Israeli munitions. When you click through the article is about the videoed Hamas massacre if a family in their car on CCTV which was one of the earliest videos to go out not about Israeli artillery at all. Then the citation of the false flag accusationd, and they are, cites the previously discussed Rlectronic Intifada as their source so it's recursive. Which in turn cites this https://archive.md/JtyES#selection-873.0-873.346 But I don't read Hebrew.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:58
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Honest question: how likely is this to turn into a forever war like the one America was in with Afghanistan until this year? Is it possible for this conflict to last decades? I'm asking because from where I'm standing much like the war in Afghanistan there doesn't seem to be a clear "win" state in the Gaza strip beyond long term occupation of the native population or completely wiping them out. I hope I don't come off as to detached, I'm horrified by all of this and wish an immediate ceasefire would happen, I'm just trying to figure out if the situation over there is really going the way I think it is. Israel will likely invade Gaza with the goal of removing them from government at the expense of the city itself and it's civilians. This will enormously piss off the rest of the Arabic world with old wounds being opened yet again with people getting incredibly angry leaving the world much, much less safe.
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Oct 28, 2023 20:00
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If they do the hypothetical prisoner swap of all of the hostages for all of the Hamas prisoners, where exactly would the prisoners be going?
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Oct 28, 2023 20:06
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Honest question: how likely is this to turn into a forever war like the one America was in with Afghanistan until this year? Is it possible for this conflict to last decades? I'm asking because from where I'm standing much like the war in Afghanistan there doesn't seem to be a clear "win" state in the Gaza strip beyond long term occupation of the native population or completely wiping them out. I hope I don't come off as to detached, I'm horrified by all of this and wish an immediate ceasefire would happen, I'm just trying to figure out if the situation over there is really going the way I think it is. It has already lasted since 1967
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Oct 28, 2023 20:12
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punishedkissinger posted:Israel just openly targeting the areas they told civilians to flee to. Israel literally does this everytime. The last time they instructed civilians to go to specific shelters than bomber those very shelters
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Oct 28, 2023 20:15
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Right, so what I've gathered is that the way things are currently going indicates this current assault will likely last a few months, then the oppression of Gaza will continue in less direct ways. It will also anger neighboring countries who oppose the way Gaza is treated and potentially lead to different wars.
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Oct 28, 2023 20:17
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Lid posted:Take for example "An Israeli massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri?" where the red text us about artillery resembling Israeli munitions. When you click through the article is about the videoed Hamas massacre if a family in their car on CCTV which was one of the earliest videos to go out not about Israeli artillery at all. Look, I think you're stretching a bit here or looking at the article after having drawn your own conclusion about it. quote:where the red text us about artillery resembling Israeli munitions. When you click through the article is about the videoed Hamas massacre if a family in their car on CCTV which was one of the earliest videos to go out not about Israeli artillery at all. The ABC reference is to where the photos of the destroyed buildings come from if you scroll slightly down from there, where it gives an account of an Israeli survivor of the attack and images to corroborate their story. The English language article is the Mondoweiss article right there in that same paragraph. https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-gr...tober-7-attack/ Now let me ask you another question. Have you applied this same scrutiny to the Israeli and US media reports?
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Oct 28, 2023 20:20
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I suspect Israel would rather deal with the problems of long-term occupation than allow Hamas to build up another massive attack within autonomous territory it controls. Most of the buildings will already be destroyed too so it'll be easy enough to restart the Gazan settlement program.
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Oct 28, 2023 20:21
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Private Witt posted:If they do the hypothetical prisoner swap of all of the hostages for all of the Hamas prisoners, where exactly would the prisoners be going? In the 2011 prisoner exchange they were first released to Cairo then some were transferred to Gaza. Those barred from returning to Gaza were later moved to other countries such as Qatar. So it would probably look something like this and required a third party broker. I think it would necessitate a ceasefire just to move all the hostages within Gaza safely as well.
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Oct 28, 2023 20:22
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Noise Complaint posted:Now let me ask you another question. Have you applied this same scrutiny to the Israeli and US media reports? Of course not I automatically assume they're self-serving and roll my eyes at them and their insane claims. If anything I give them less scrutiny because they just say nonsense and it's apparent on their face when bullshit and they have been all bullshit for weeks. But the reason I cited Loose Change here is because, like 9/11, October 7th is an incident with more documentation from both sides as well as independent international foreigners. My only interest in that article wasn't in the greater things that have happened in the three weeks since but on the facts of the 7th. Calling for an independent investigation might as well be trying to hold back the ocean, he'll I'm old enough to remember the demands to have independent investigations into 9/11 before the US went to Afghanistan. And just as then the US media was completley untrustworthy and gun ho... but that didn't mean it was in good faith to say Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams. Edit: these things are both true, there was a Hamas atrocity on October 7th, there is an ongoing and current atrocity being committed by Israel right this second that they are cutting off the internet for so no one can see them.
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Oct 28, 2023 20:33
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https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1718331159719915793 Iran confident that the ground invasion last night was a failure. https://twitter.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1718337426857603381?s=20 Transcription: https://twitter.com/adhamsharkawi/status/1718327034953269277?s=20 quote:Occupation: 10 armed men infiltrated Zikim and were eliminated Hamas spokesperson is now arguing with Israel press releases D&D style. Trying to visualize how "a cell trying to launch a missile at our vehicles" would look; you'd think firing the missile would be the easy part of the equation for a group of people. Was it a Three Stooges act where the missile kept slipping out of their hands? "Habibi, you forgot the matches!"
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Oct 28, 2023 20:45
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