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Bel Shazar posted:Nahh, the system's responsible for the poo poo candidates I have to pick from. At best there's some responsibility for things that a theoretical republican executive wouldn't do, but that's a short list of things. And you are responsible for that system. Flail uselessly opposing it, resign yourself to it, or remove yourself from it. The idea that powerlessness is blamelessness is as ridiculous as deciding that "because knowingly running someone over is worse than doing so unknowingly, if I am going to drive on the sidewalk to reach my destination faster, closing my eyes while I do so is more moral than leaving them open."
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Oct 29, 2023 03:14
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Neurolimal posted:If you can't be held accountable for voting for someone, then Trump voters can't be held accountable for voting for Trump. They simply made the insignificant moral calculus of choosing who they perceived to be the lesser evil, probably didn't think he'd actually follow through on anything; he didn't even build the wall! I’m not going to delve deep into the everything that’s going on in this post, but your logic here is explicitly that a thing must be true (voting is a direct line for all moral responsibility) because if it wasn’t you’d be sad (Trump voters must be punished). That is a very bad argument and you should not use it.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:14
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Neurolimal posted:If you can't be held accountable for voting for someone, then Trump voters can't be held accountable for voting for Trump. They simply made the insignificant moral calculus of choosing who they perceived to be the lesser evil, probably didn't think he'd actually follow through on anything; he didn't even build the wall! What does "held accountable" for voting for someone look like? I voted for Obama, he droned civilians, what punished would befall me in this scenario to hold me accountable?
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Oct 29, 2023 03:16
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I wish I was a cultural anthropologist because this is just a different flavor of Ken Bone-itis, and I wish I had the knowledge to understand it better. “Independent” voters are almost universally morons, politically aware non-voters are as well. To say “this horrible outcome is occurring, but at least I stayed on the sidelines” is only understandable as a coping mechanism for an unjust world. There are no perfect choices, but if you don’t make one someone else will make the worst choice for you.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:20
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socialsecurity posted:What does "held accountable" for voting for someone look like? I voted for Obama, he droned civilians, what punished would befall me in this scenario to hold me accountable? While I am not the person you are quoting, to me the punishment is "living with knowing that you voted for that to happen, and funded it with your taxes." I, for one, sleep quite comfortably on my metaphorical waterbed filled with blood. Tnega fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 03:26
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The only way you can hope for someone who agrees with 100% of the things you want is if you personally run for position and hope people vote for you. Saying x candidate only agrees with 80% of the things I like so I won't vote for them and having the candidate who only agrees 30% of the things you like win is not a great position to be in. You are allowed to not like everything a candidate stands for just as long as they stand for enough of the things you do like.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:35
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Trump has the nomination locked up for him every time for the rest of his life. Even he had another term as POTUS and tried to run for a third, I think he could probably get the party behind him based on how they eventually aligned with his efforts to overturn the election. He's been looking rough though, If I was in the race already, I would definitely hang in until the nomination in case he keeled over.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:48
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World Famous W posted:no, my vote on the federal side doesn't matter in alabama because we are sending up republicans even if i snuck in and voted multiple times. it takes a black swan event like 2017 for that to change, and even then jones couldn't make it as an incumbent when it came time for non-off year non-special election Isn't Alabama getting redistricted? It might matter for the House.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:49
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Madkal posted:The only way you can hope for someone who agrees with 100% of the things you want is if you personally run for position and hope people vote for you. Saying x candidate only agrees with 80% of the things I like so I won't vote for them and having the candidate who only agrees 30% of the things you like win is not a great position to be in. You are allowed to not like everything a candidate stands for just as long as they stand for enough of the things you do like. Yes, but when they implement the 20% you don't like, you do not get to say "I didn't vote for that, so I have no responsibility for it occuring". And thus we will talk in circles forever, because what % is untenable to support is a personal question.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:52
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selec posted:You could lose a job in the majority of US states for this if you were a government employee, and made it clear you were trying to target Israel with a boycott, divestment or sanction. This doesn't get talked about enough. It's not just government employees - I used to work for a private company that happened to sell things to government entities (mostly schools), and I regularly (multiple times a year) had to sign government affidavits affirming that I have not and will not participate in any boycotts on Israel, even privately. It's completely insane and I can't imagine how it could be constitutional, but that's the level of obsessiveness the US government has about protecting Israel.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:52
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Madkal posted:The only way you can hope for someone who agrees with 100% of the things you want is if you personally run for position and hope people vote for you. Saying x candidate only agrees with 80% of the things I like so I won't vote for them and having the candidate who only agrees 30% of the things you like win is not a great position to be in. You are allowed to not like everything a candidate stands for just as long as they stand for enough of the things you do like. Naturally, someone is going to place a different amount of weight for what they like. Sometimes a politician can do something that is so beyond the pale that they no longer have your vote even if they agree with a lot of what you want.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:55
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Neurolimal posted:If you can't be held accountable for voting for someone, then Trump voters can't be held accountable for voting for Trump. They simply made the insignificant moral calculus of choosing who they perceived to be the lesser evil, probably didn't think he'd actually follow through on anything; he didn't even build the wall! Hold on, do you think that the genocide in Gaza has only been happening this year? I got something to tell you about the history of Israel/Palestine....
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Oct 29, 2023 03:55
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Tnega posted:Yes, but when they implement the 20% you don't like, you do not get to say "I didn't vote for that, so I have no responsibility for it occuring". And thus we will talk in circles forever, because what % is untenable to support is a personal question. People vote for specific individuals not lists of policy positions. Your whole thing here is non sequitur to the reality.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:01
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Neurolimal posted:If you can't be held accountable for voting for someone, then Trump voters can't be held accountable for voting for Trump. They simply made the insignificant moral calculus of choosing who they perceived to be the lesser evil, probably didn't think he'd actually follow through on anything; he didn't even build the wall! This is a false dichotomy. It's not binary.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:07
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Bar Ran Dun posted:People vote for specific individuals not lists of policy positions. Then would you agree that whom someone votes for is irrelevant? Given that without policy positions, all you are voting on is vibes?
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Oct 29, 2023 04:08
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Kalit posted:Hold on, do you think that the genocide in Gaza has only been happening this year? I've followed the conflict for about 14 years, and the level of fury and deprivation Israel is inflicting in this war is entirely novel. 1400 deaths in the '09 war over 21 days. 2,300 in '14 over 49 days. We are at 7,700 over 21 days, with around 50% of infrastructure rendered uninhabitable, with water, electricity, food, and fuel cut off, with the bombings only intensifying. That the state department is not just adamantly against a ceasefire (which, I might add, has majority support from the American public, and nigh-unanimous support internationally), but also lying about the veracity of casualties inflicted, and stationing carriers specifically to provide Israel carte blanche to slaughter, is abominable.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:11
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Wayne Knight posted:I wish I was a cultural anthropologist because this is just a different flavor of Ken Bone-itis, and I wish I had the knowledge to understand it better. “Independent” voters are almost universally morons, politically aware non-voters are as well. To say “this horrible outcome is occurring, but at least I stayed on the sidelines” is only understandable as a coping mechanism for an unjust world. There are no perfect choices, but if you don’t make one someone else will make the worst choice for you. Let he who has not commented on beautiful human submarines cast the first stone
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Oct 29, 2023 04:11
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I'm not sure there's any practical sense in which you can "hold people accountable" for who they voted for, because people vote for all sorts of different motivations. What I do think is useful is destroying the notion that voting for someone means pledging your loyalty to them. Which then also entails defending everything they do. It's an insane way to think about it, but most Americans seem to. The alternative requires enough maturity to be okay with feeling bad when the guy you voted for does something bad, and not reflexively defending them. How much it ends up reflecting on you as a person really kind of depends on the situation. What sure as hell doesn't help, in any situation, is when you take every single criticism of the guy you voted for as a personal attack. What may possibly help is feeling bad enough to not vote for them again. When that's an option.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:20
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Tnega posted:Then would you agree that whom someone votes for is irrelevant? Given that without policy positions, all you are voting on is vibes? No absolutely not. Let’s concretize the question but not in a loaded national context. Where I live there is a parks district. The parks district has wanted to make a new public pool. The old pool is oversized and it’s pumps /heater is falling apart. The parks district got a grant that matches raised public funding, but that comes with requirements. Those requirements lead it to propose a benched marked aquatics center (splash pads, zero entry, lazy river, etc) to be eligible for the grant, which is probably more than the community needs. Overwhelmingly there community just wants a functional olympic sized pool without frills. On the ballet is the measure to approve bonds for the pool to be paid out of property taxes (needs a 60% supermajority, lost previously at 56%) There are two candidates running to run the park district. One is a property lawyer currently running the district and who prepared the grant application and process for the pool. The other was one of community members who started the park district thirty years ago who is openly advocating for a no frills community pool which would but that would lose the matching grant. Two questions appeared on the ballot. One is the pool bond. The other is the two candidates to run the district. One votes for an individual. One doesn’t know particularly about the specifics of what acts they will choose in the future. One cares about single questions (I want a pool). But outcomes and processes aren’t always connected. Sometimes outcomes are accident. So one picks the individual one thinks will navigate the moment best. Who I vote for is going will determine if my community gets a new pool. It matters who is elected. But even with pretty complete information it’s unclear which person will successfully get a pool built.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:35
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Neurolimal posted:I've followed the conflict for about 14 years, and the level of fury and deprivation Israel is inflicting in this war is entirely novel. 1400 deaths in the '09 war over 21 days. 2,300 in '14 over 49 days. We are at 7,700 over 21 days, with around 50% of infrastructure rendered uninhabitable, with water, electricity, food, and fuel cut off, with the bombings only intensifying. That the state department is not just adamantly against a ceasefire (which, I might add, has majority support from the American public, and nigh-unanimous support internationally), but also lying about the veracity of casualties inflicted, and stationing carriers specifically to provide Israel carte blanche to slaughter, is abominable. If you're aware this has been happening outside of 2023, why are you specifically claiming only the current year with your previous post stating: Neurolimal posted:Joe Biden, overseer of the 2023 Gazan genocide.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:41
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Kalit posted:If you're aware this has been happening outside of 2023, why are you specifically claiming only the current year with Because, again, this is beyond the pale. There is a far more concerted effort to either ethnically cleanse or genocide (Israel would be comfortable with either) Gaza than we have ever seen before. No other iteration of the conflict has bore witness to such untold devastation, loss of human life, and deprivation.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:44
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Neurolimal posted:Because, again, this is beyond the pale. There is a far more concerted effort to either ethnically cleanse or genocide (Israel would be comfortable with either) Gaza than we have ever seen before. No other iteration of the conflict has bore witness to such untold devastation, loss of human life, and deprivation. I think 2014 wants to have a word with you regarding that statement, it's not a night and day difference in scale between then and now. Also, do you think that the scale/pace of genocide makes it any less/more moral? Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 04:46
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Kalit posted:I think 2014 wants to have a word with you regarding that statement.... 2300 dead in '14. 7700 dead and climbing in '23. 25% of housing damaged in '14. 42% of housing destroyed last verified october 22nd '23. 525,000 displaced in '14. 1.4 million displaced last verified october 22nd '23. Water lines damaged, eight of ten power lines destroyed in 2014. Water and power shut off in '23. This is a war beyond the pale.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:55
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No absolutely not. I asked if you agreed if who you vote for does not matter, you disagreed, and as evidence gave a situation where it literally did not matter, because the relevant question for the candidates (will we have any pool) is itself on the ballot.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:55
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Neurolimal posted:2300 dead in '14. 7700 dead and climbing in '23. i had edited my post since it wasn't fully encapsulating my point. Most importantly to my point, do you think that the scale/pace of genocide makes it any less/more moral?
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Oct 29, 2023 05:00
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Sir Lemming posted:I'm not sure there's any practical sense in which you can "hold people accountable" for who they voted for, because people vote for all sorts of different motivations. What I do think is useful is destroying the notion that voting for someone means pledging your loyalty to them. Which then also entails defending everything they do. It's an insane way to think about it, but most Americans seem to. Agreed. A lot of people say things like, "Biden voters support the Palestinian Holocaust" or "Trump voters support fascism" and both are equally wrong. Trump and Biden voters are simply voting for who they think will do the least damage (Biden is slightly more in favor of gay rights, trump negotiated the end of the Afghan holocaust/didn't have any wars in Ukraine/didn't have any war in Israel/created the covid vaccine). Trump voters and Biden voters are identically responsible for those presidents policies. Same way as Hitler voters thought he'd make the economy better, Biden voters are totally innocent of blame for anything he does.
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Oct 29, 2023 05:08
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Kalit posted:i had edited my post since it wasn't fully encapsulating my point. Most importantly to my point, do you think that the scale/pace of genocide makes it any less/more moral? No president within my lifetime has had a moral reaction to the abuse Palestinians receive, but the degree that this war has reached demands a break from norm, especially at a time where deviation from Israel is safer than ever. Instead Biden has, in actions, delivered the worst response of any president. The pace does not make genocide moral, but it offers the delusion that incremental progress over several presidents could halt it; that the current president doesn't need to be morally competent. Gaza does not have that time right now. One could argue "Trump will make it even worse", but if this war is still ongoing by November of next year Biden will have cemented his place in the history books.
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Oct 29, 2023 05:09
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uninterrupted posted:Same way as Hitler voters thought he'd make the economy better, Biden voters are totally innocent of blame for anything he does. Just to make sure I am reading this correctly, you just wrote that people who voted explicitly for Hitler have no culpability for the actions perpetrated by Hitler's regime?
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Oct 29, 2023 05:15
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Neurolimal posted:No president within my lifetime has had a moral reaction to the abuse Palestinians receive, but the degree that this war has reached demands a break from norm, especially at a time where deviation from Israel is safer than ever. Instead Biden has, in actions, delivered the worst response of any president. Umm... did you pay attention to the "peace plan" of Trump? I would argue that his call for the demilitarization of Palestine/disarmament of Gaza is a lot worse than anything Biden has called for.
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Oct 29, 2023 05:16
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Tnega posted:Just to make sure I am reading this correctly, you just wrote that people who voted explicitly for Hitler have no culpability for the actions perpetrated by Hitler's regime? People who voted for Hitler, Trump, or Biden have equal culpabilities for their actions, I doubt there are many people here who'd disagree with that
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Oct 29, 2023 05:32
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uninterrupted posted:People who voted for Hitler, Trump, or Biden have equal culpabilities for their actions, I doubt there are many people here who'd disagree with that The last page or so has been about the disagreement on that.
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Oct 29, 2023 05:36
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Neurolimal posted:If you can't be held accountable for voting for someone, then Trump voters can't be held accountable for voting for Trump. They simply made the insignificant moral calculus of choosing who they perceived to be the lesser evil, probably didn't think he'd actually follow through on anything; he didn't even build the wall! This is utterly stupid. I don't give a poo poo who or what you vote for, because I'm never going to spend a lengthy portion of time in a detailed discussion over your singular vote. Instead I'll judge you over your beliefs and what I understand you desires to be. I don't hate John Smith because he voted Trump. I hate him because he's a hateful, bigoted, piece of poo poo. Voting for Trump didn't turn him into that, he was that before and will be that after. I don't hate Sara Jane because she vote Trump. I love her because she's a kind, selfless person always looking to help others. Unfortunately she doesn't pay close enough attention to politics, and was mislead by those around her to believe that Trump was good and Hillary was bad. You can't look at voting like it's some sort of obvious and clear moral instrument. It's a singular and crude toggle for a vast array of complex issues. Everyone is coming at it with different strategies, understandings, and goals. Everyone but single issue voters are using their crude, inelegant, vote as a strategic attempt to effect the least harm and enact the most good. Especially since almost no ballot question is [Only Good Things] vs [Only Bad Things].
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Oct 29, 2023 05:39
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uninterrupted posted:People who voted for Hitler, Trump, or Biden have equal culpabilities for their actions, I doubt there are many people here who'd disagree with that Elections were for parties not people in the Weimar Republic so it’s a moot point. At no point was “Hitler Y/N?” something on a ballot. It’s really weird how people like referencing the rise of Nazism a lot more than they like knowing how it happened.
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Oct 29, 2023 05:46
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Xiahou Dun posted:Elections were for parties not people in the Weimar Republic so it’s a moot point. At no point was “Hitler Y/N?” something on a ballot. You're right, there's an appreciable difference between voting for the Nazi party versus voting for Hitler that's important to highlight. Voters for the Nazi Party and Biden are equally not responsible for the holocausts that have been commited by their chosen politicians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 05:48
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Tnega posted:I asked if you agreed if who you vote for does not matter, you disagreed, and as evidence gave a situation where it literally did not matter, because the relevant question for the candidates (will we have any pool) is itself on the ballot. No, the bond for the grant matched pool is on the ballot and has previously failed. Even a very simple local question is an incredibly complicated election. If the bond fails the anti bond smaller pool candidate who created the district might be the candidate that can get the outcome I want. If the bond passes property lawyer dude is better prepared to get that sweet matching grant money, but he’s failed up to now to get that bond passed as a supermajority. It’s not clear which candidate may produce my desired outcome. So it matters but the outcome of my choice is indeterminate until after I choose. This isn’t a decision made on one’s feelings, but rather one with incomplete knowledge of outcomes. But now take it back to the polarized national context. In the national context there are fascists on the ballot. That means those votes where fascists are running have predictable outcomes, but only on one side. We can know what happens when fascists are elected.
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Oct 29, 2023 05:51
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Xiahou Dun posted:Elections were for parties not people in the Weimar Republic so it’s a moot point. At no point was “Hitler Y/N?” something on a ballot. 
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Oct 29, 2023 05:56
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Wrong election lol
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Oct 29, 2023 06:23
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Madkal posted:The only way you can hope for someone who agrees with 100% of the things you want is if you personally run for position and hope people vote for you. Saying x candidate only agrees with 80% of the things I like so I won't vote for them and having the candidate who only agrees 30% of the things you like win is not a great position to be in. You are allowed to not like everything a candidate stands for just as long as they stand for enough of the things you do like.
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Oct 29, 2023 06:37
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Assigning individual responsibility for the collective decisions of an entire society is pretty silly. The actions of the president are everyone's responsibility. If Biden wins the presidency, then everyone who didn't vote Trump is complicit in him winning. And those who backed Trump are also complicit, because they supported a candidate so horrible that Biden looked good by comparison.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:00
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World Famous W posted:the opposite holds true to. im allowed to like most of what someone stands for but find them unacceptable if the few things we don't agree with is monstrous in my eyes Nobody is even criticizing you for what you think about a politician (which would also be okay, since as you say people can think different things about politicians), people are disagreeing with you over whether or not it's a good idea not to vote.
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Oct 29, 2023 07:18
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