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Senjuro posted:Rudimentary or not, nothing is stopping them from concentrating all those thousands of rockets on the closet military base. It would be easier than the far off cities they successfully target. With such numbers they'd be guaranteed to hit something actually useful. They choose to fire at cities because terror is their primary tactic, not because that's all they can hit. They've killed a few dozen people over the past twenty plus years and thousands upon thousands of rockets and you think they can aim them at military bases?
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Oct 29, 2023 23:24
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Mean Baby posted:The rockets can’t aim like that. What part of that don’t you understand? Groovelord Neato posted:They've killed a few dozen people over the past twenty plus years and thousands upon thousands of rockets and you think they can aim them at military bases?
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Oct 29, 2023 23:34
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https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1718732303705284632 Is Hezbollah about to get fully involved in this?
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Oct 29, 2023 23:37
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1718732303705284632 It would be a bad idea to announce that you're about to escalate the fighting.
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Oct 29, 2023 23:41
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nesbit37 posted:A lot of these recent posts are feeling way too much like oct. 7th denial which is too close to holocaust denial IMO. I get they're not saying it didn't happen at all but the event is really getting trivialized. Even the worst act of terrorism is trivialised set against honest to god genocide. It is the apex atrocity. Trying to equate Oct. 7th with the Holocaust is patently manipulative and loving offensive, and in the present context morally outrageous, so please desist.
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Oct 29, 2023 23:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 00:01
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Senjuro posted:They aim well enough to routinely reach cities as far as Tel-Aviv and sometimes even Jerusalem. Granted they can't guide it down to a particular street but a closer target is bound to be easier and with thousands of attempts there's bound to be some success. Also the closer they aim the harder the Iron Dome's job becomes. There's no reason not to try if military targets are their actual preference. That's nothing to do with aim. Given enough fuel they'll reach as far as the motor will fire. They're essentially a firework. Can you aim a firework? Now add accumulated error for longer range and it's apparent why they can't target military bases. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 00:11
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mannerup posted:its gonna come up when you are discussing the largest single day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, its not some abstract comparison that Hamas perpetrated a pogrom on a scale not seen since Nazi Germany Oh yeah, but then the Holocaust comes up as a deflection any time Israel is doing something reprehensible. Meanwhile something that actually looks a lot more like the Holocaust is happening just over there and we can pull up a seat at the kibbutz tail gate party to watch. Or we can watch the stream on broadcast Israeli TV. Israel is doing a genocide right now, this moment as I type this and as you read it, and that is why it is offensive to have someone come in here and imply that people are in any way doing Holocaust denial because they don't agree with the Israeli justification for doing an actual holocaust.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:18
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Senjuro posted:They aim well enough to routinely reach cities as far as Tel-Aviv and sometimes even Jerusalem. Granted they can't guide it down to a particular street but a closer target is bound to be easier and with thousands of attempts there's bound to be some success. Also the closer they aim the harder the Iron Dome's job becomes. There's no reason not to try if military targets are their actual preference. The claim was that Hamas was engaged in primarily a military operation. Firing rockets that cannot be aimed at anything other than large population centers is not a military operation, it is the deliberate targeting of civilians to induce terror.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:26
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MikeC posted:The claim was that Hamas was engaged in primarily a military operation. Firing rockets that cannot be aimed at anything other than large population centers is not a military operation, it is the deliberate targeting of civilians to induce terror. So what should Hamas do, exactly?
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Oct 30, 2023 00:31
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Marenghi posted:That's nothing to do with aim. Given enough fuel they'll reach as far as the motor will fire. They control the angle and direction it's launched at and by adjusting the amount of fuel they control how long it flies. Together those things control the general area it will land in, not with anything resembling 100% reliability but given a big enough target and plenty of attempts, it's doable.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:33
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Maybe should've given them access to guidance systems
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Oct 30, 2023 00:35
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Senjuro posted:They aim well enough to routinely reach cities as far as Tel-Aviv and sometimes even Jerusalem. Granted they can't guide it down to a particular street but a closer target is bound to be easier and with thousands of attempts there's bound to be some success. Also the closer they aim the harder the Iron Dome's job becomes. There's no reason not to try if military targets are their actual preference. The IDF HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv so your wish was granted. mannerup posted:its gonna come up when you are discussing the largest single day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, its not some abstract comparison that Hamas perpetrated a pogrom on a scale not seen since Nazi Germany That line is Holocaust minimization and it's extremely gross seeing it posted multiple times in this thread. It wasn't a pogrom. They were killed because they're citizens of the country jailing and brutalizing them not due to their race. It's an awful thing on its own without this nonsense propagandistic comparison. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 00:35
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I imagine it's easier to "aim" in the general direction of a city, than to try to specifically hit a military base (which is generally smaller than a city).
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Oct 30, 2023 00:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:The IDF HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv so your wish was granted.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:43
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Mean Baby posted:So what should Hamas do, exactly? Not kill a lot of civilians. They should not kill a lot of civilians. Everyone should not kill a lot of civilians.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:43
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https://apnews.com/article/russia-dagestan-tel-aviv-flight-airport-makhachkala-fa06b16131ed41c0c789981cdcaac84f Lots of antisemitic activity increasing—not related to Israel. EDIT: to be clear, not related to the Israeli civilians and passengers** taking the flight (what kind of people do you think are escaping Israel right now?) i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 00:45
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Groovelord Neato posted:The IDF HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv so your wish was granted. https://x.com/elivalley/status/1716121672304955739?s=20 The central hospital in Tel Aviv sits more or less than a half-kilometer from the IDF's version of the Pentagon, regardless if you go from the center of the main hospital building or the specialist buildings at the end. If Hezbollah or Syria used their ballistic missiles, the hospital is well within their circle error probability (where 50% of missiles will fall within).
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Oct 30, 2023 00:46
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Not kill a lot of civilians. They should not kill a lot of civilians. Everyone should not kill a lot of civilians. I knew you would answer in the negative. Answer in the positive. What should Hamas do?
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Oct 30, 2023 00:47
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Mean Baby posted:So what should Hamas do, exactly? I don't care what they do or don't do, nor am I suggesting a certain course of action. I have no dog in this fight. Your post that Hamas is engaged in primarily a military operation (your words) cannot be regarded as rooted in reality and is not viewed as such by any serious observer. Unless you can rigorously source You should retract your claim and acknowledge that Hamas deliberately and willfully targets civilians to cause terror as its primary effect, not a secondary one. I don't care if you think it is justified or not. You can debate that with other people. I am just pointing out what is generally accepted as facts.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:48
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Bel Shazar posted:It would be a bad idea to announce that you're about to escalate the fighting. How would it be? Israel may think twice about escalating
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Oct 30, 2023 00:54
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MikeC posted:I don't care what they do or don't do, nor am I suggesting a certain course of action. I have no dog in this fight. Your post that Hamas is engaged in primarily a military operation (your words) cannot be regarded as rooted in reality and is not viewed as such by any serious observer. Unless you can rigorously source You should retract your claim and acknowledge that Hamas deliberately and willfully targets civilians to cause terror as its primary effect, not a secondary one. Hamas primarily won a military victory. They basically destroyed Israel’s Gaza Division. They had a clear military plan. They stated unequivocally the leadership did not want to harm civilians. Hamas was not the only actor killing civilians. We know the IDF also killed civilians and other groups and individuals escaped the concentration camp and committed atrocities. The “generally accepted facts” are more complex than Hamas killing 1400 civilians. Outside of the insane corporate press who are literally embedded with the IDF, who claimed that there were mass rapes and decapitated babies, the story is more complicated. In the history of the conflict, October 7th is probably the most effective military action in a single day. Israel has killed at least 7000 people and only 13 were Hamas, for comparison. Hamas is a far more ethical actor than Israel.
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Oct 30, 2023 00:57
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i fly airplanes posted:This is whataboutism, and I'm not sure why many posters here have a problem with addressing the slaughter of the music festival youth without mentioning IDF bombings. Yes, October 7th massacre was horrible, people responsible should be punished, there was no justification for this slaughter. There, can we now go back to LITERAL loving GENOCIDE that is currently taking place?
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Oct 30, 2023 01:01
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i fly airplanes posted:https://apnews.com/article/russia-dagestan-tel-aviv-flight-airport-makhachkala-fa06b16131ed41c0c789981cdcaac84f If it's not related to Israel why is it in this thread? I mean, it is obviously a direct response to Israel committing genocide on a Muslim population, what with the mob responding to rumours of a flight from Tel-Aviv. And also a good example in general of how Israel's actions endanger Jewish people around the world by its deliberate conflation of Israel and all Jewish people.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:02
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Mean Baby posted:They stated unequivocally the leadership did not want to harm civilians.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:03
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Mean Baby posted:So what should Hamas do, exactly? They should start by asking "what actions will provide the highest likelihood of achieving our goals?" and then doing those things. If their goal is to inflict as much pain as possible on Israel and Israelis, consequences to the Palestine people be damned, then they are taking the right actions towards their goal. If their goals are a peaceful one or two state solution as soon as possible, then the actions they've taken are a huge step backwards, regardless of how righteous the Palestinian cause is. There's no question in my mind that their anger is justified, that Israel has committed horrible atrocities against them, and that any weighing of the scales of atrocities would show that Israel has committed, and continues to commit far more atrocities against the Palestinian people than the other way around. But they are supposed to be the leaders of their people. Leaders should be trying to chart the path that is best for their people, not simply trying to level the scales of atrocities, or simply striking out in (absolutely justified) anger. I obviously don't have a simple solution to solve everything, which is what you're asking for. I've been watching this 20 year old Frontline piece on why Oslo failed and it's been painful to see how much closer the region was to a real peace. It's also painful to see the same people loving things up back then that are loving things up now, Netanyahu especially. https://youtu.be/jt3PpqaLfxo?si=kEYz8YOzYTTGVwZu DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:04
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Willo567 posted:Is Hezbollah about to get fully involved in this?
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Oct 30, 2023 01:08
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DeadlyMuffin posted:They should start by asking "what actions will provide the highest likelihood of achieving our goals?" and then doing those things. There's an argument to be had that the targeting of civilians by an irregular group has a political benefit in conveying to the civilians that they cannot live within a bubble detached from the oppressed. It's an argument that's come up a mind-numbing amount of times within this very thread, in fact. There is also the fact that military lives are typically "budgeted in" among civilians; if a soldier dies, so what. They're a soldier, dying is their job. Write a country song about how brave and cool they were. Usually it's to convince those civilians that it's more worthwhile to pressure their politicians towards peace & justice than risk getting cafe bombed. The calculus is a bit more warped here, in that it generally makes Israel act much more odiously in a way that alienates the rest of the world (see: live death counter, tiktoks mocking Gazans, callous "tell Hamas to surrender" posts under pictures of dead children, lawn chairs & popcorn, aggressively unfunny BBC parodies, etc) rather than pursue peace. To their credit, the families of the hostages are pressuring Israel to accept a deal with Hamas. There is, of course, the opportunity for this to backfire insofar as if the attack is severe enough it can cause the international public to greenlight the oppressors' actions. And that seemed to be the case with regards to a ground invasion early on, in response to Oct 7...."Luckily" Israel instead opted to slaughter a shitload of civilians, turn off all utilities, level half of Gaza, and start talking like a JRPG adaptation of Hitler. Burned through their goodwill in record time. You can come to your own argument as to whether it's an effective tactic, or if it's too amoral, of course.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:11
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If their goals are a peaceful one or two state solution as soon as possible, then the actions they've taken are a huge step backwards, regardless of how righteous the Palestinian cause. Are you sure about that? Israel was already committed to ethnic cleansing and there was clearly no alternative within Israel. The alternative for Gaza was what, exactly? It seems to me that Israel is in a state of panic and a significant portion of the Arab world was forced to recommit to the Palestinian cause whereas before they were looking to normalize relations with Israel to the detriment of Palestinians. You also have China and Russia coming out in strong support of Palestine.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:12
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:If it's not related to Israel why is it in this thread? You are again blaming the victim. People are targeting Jews, and in this case, likely Israelis, as it's a flight from Israel. People angered at Israel's government or not, there is no excuse to target innocent civilians, this distinction should be obvious. And the Russian Muslims (note they are not Palestinians) in this case are not clean from responsibility. There is as much rhetoric and incitement coming from Arab and Palestinian media as there is Jewish and Israeli media to fuel these actions. I meant not related to Israel in that it didn't take place in Israel. Szarrukin posted:Yes, October 7th massacre was horrible, people responsible should be punished, there was no justification for this slaughter. There, can we now go back to LITERAL loving GENOCIDE that is currently taking place? Nobody is ignoring "literal loving genocide" in the thread here. There's nonstop coverage of Palestine. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:13
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Neurolimal posted:There's an argument to be had that the targeting of civilians by an irregular group has a political benefit in conveying to the civilians that they cannot live within a bubble detached from the oppressed. It's an argument that's come up a mind-numbing amount of times within this very thread, in fact.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:15
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Bel Shazar posted:It would be a bad idea to announce that you're about to escalate the fighting. It'll likely be the usual show of support and request to stop the bombing, with a veiled threat of doing more if things stay hot. The thing with groups like Hezbollah is that you can't be -too- peaceful when this sort of thing happens, because half of your cred comes from being the defender of poor muslims against military oppression. But you also can't be gung-ho and open up at any provocation because Lebanon is already a barely-existing shitshow, and they supply a small thread of hospitals and aid services that make a huge difference across southern Lebanin that could easily be overwhelmed in a real war and gently caress things majorly for their local support base. So it's a paradox in which you attract people with the banner of being the bold warrior but keep your place in society by having to offer a minimum of governance. Not a needle most hotheads can thread, but here we are.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:20
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Mean Baby posted:I knew you would answer in the negative. Answer in the positive. What should Hamas do? Why, are they waiting for my orders? If I had whatever power Hamas has right now I'd try to save as many people as I could from the bombing by sheltering them, giving them medical care and aid, etc. I'd try a hostage negotiation to get a ceasefire, aid, release of Palestinian prisoners, whatever I could get there. Hamas killing all those civilians on Oct 7 was evil, it's evil that the Israeli right installed them into power, and now they're doing evil in the name of getting them out of power. It's all evil because it's the mass infliction of suffering which predictably only entrenches more suffering. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Why, are they waiting for my orders? So no military response whatsoever? What is the proper response to being in a concentration camp? Should they ask nicely to be let out?
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Oct 30, 2023 01:25
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i fly airplanes posted:You are again blaming the victim. People are targeting Jews, and in this case, likely Israelis, as it's a flight from Israel. Why have you placed the word genocide in quotes?
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Oct 30, 2023 01:25
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Algund Eenboom posted:Why have you placed the word genocide in quotes? Quoting the original goon poster
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Oct 30, 2023 01:27
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:27
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Mean Baby posted:Are you sure about that? Israel was already committed to ethnic cleansing and there was clearly no alternative within Israel. The alternative for Gaza was what, exactly? You're asking me to predict the future. I can't say for sure that this has been a gigantic step back for peace between Israel and Palestine but it sure looks like one where I'm sitting now. Divestment and sanctions worked against apartheid South Africa. If you are asking me, personally, as a non expert what I think, that is the model I would try and follow. That kind of thing requires the sympathy of the international community to be on your side. The Hamas attack was counterproductive if that's the goal, in my opinion.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:31
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Mean Baby posted:So no military response whatsoever? What is the proper response to being in a concentration camp? Should they ask nicely to be let out? How should I know what a military response would look like, or accomplish? If they go to war they should not kill a lot of civilians. I don't know what you're looking for here, a complete five-year operations scheme for Hamas, written by a dude in America? All I can really say is that they shouldn't kill a lot of civilians. I really just think it's hosed up to kill a lot of civilians. It's a war crime, it's hosed up when Israel does it, it's hosed up when my country does it, it's not suddenly cool when Hamas does it. If that's dumb, you should just explain how, instead of asking me to answer questions that obviously neither of us can answer in a useful way. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah it definitely seems like the attack created a lot of pressure towards peace and justice within Israel. With all due respect, I don't think anyone outside Israel has any belief that Israel is going to be pressured towards peace in any way that doesn't involve a defeat. The last person to suggest peace-not even a peace between equals, considering how West Bank got chopped up by Oslo-was murdered. I don't think any serious Palestinian group is thinking about how they can win Israeli hearts and minds. That's why I mentioned the warped calculus; instead of nudging Israel towards peace, it nudges them towards globally abhorrent reactions that make the public (if not the governments) turn away from them. It would have been very bloody for Israel, but after October 7th, they had the goodwill to go into Gaza and execute pretty much anyone who's worked for Hamas (under the assumption that the IDF are actually a competent ground force that could do this). They opted instead to turn both Israel & US cooperation radioactive in the Middle East. It's the kind of strategy that only works if you know that your opponent is insane and prone to disproportionate reactions specifically aimed at civilians. Lucky for Hamas.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:35
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