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Civilized Fishbot posted:How should I know what a military response would look like, or accomplish? If you say what Hamas should not do, you should be able to say what you think they should do. In my opinion those in concentration camps can free themselves by any means necessary. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 30, 2023 01:38
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Mean Baby posted:Hamas primarily won a military victory. They basically destroyed Israel’s Gaza Division. They had a clear military plan. They stated unequivocally the leadership did not want to harm civilians. Source and explain how raining rockets into Israeli cities targetting civilian population centers actively achieved this. Mean Baby posted:Hamas was not the only actor killing civilians. We know the IDF also killed civilians and other groups and individuals escaped the concentration camp and committed atrocities. Whataboutism Mean Baby posted:The “generally accepted facts” are more complex than Hamas killing 1400 civilians. Outside of the insane corporate press who are literally embedded with the IDF, who claimed that there were mass rapes and decapitated babies, the story is more complicated. Source and explain how it is complicated enough that raining rockets by the thousands into population centers can be considered a military operation and not a terror strike. Mean Baby posted:In the history of the conflict, October 7th is probably the most effective military action in a single day. Israel has killed at least 7000 people and only 13 were Hamas, for comparison. Hamas is a far more ethical actor than Israel. Whataboutism
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Oct 30, 2023 01:38
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Mean Baby posted:So what should Hamas do, exactly? Release the hostages and surrender. Israel isn't going to stop this time, and nobody is going to stop Israel.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:43
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mannerup posted:stating that Hamas committed the largest single day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust is not minimization, it is stating a fact Nobody's saying it as if it's historical trivia or it would've been said once and not repeated ad nauseum.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:47
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Mean Baby posted:In my opinion those in concentration camps can free themselves by any means necessary. In what way did they free themselves by killing migrant workers and children? Attacking military targets, of course. Kidnapping civilians, a ruthless war crime but the logic is there. Killing random unarmed civilian strangers, in the emulation of Baruch Goldstein or any other American mass shooter, that's not freeing anyone, that's just psychopathy with an ideological license. We see it all the time, sometimes bad people join up with good causes and do bad things in the chaos of war. It is evil. It's no reflection on the Palestinian people, on their cause. It's no justification for the unjustifiable exterminationist campaign against them. It is still evil. Not once in this thread have I heard an apology for Hamas' war crimes that I didn't first hear as an apology for Israeli war crimes. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:51
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i fly airplanes posted:You are again blaming the victim. People are targeting Jews, and in this case, likely Israelis, as it's a flight from Israel. I was saying that the actions of Israel negatively effect Jewish people because of a conflation which Israel itself deliberately perpetuates. I did not not blame the victims of that attack for being attacked. Nor do I recall blaming victims at any other point in this thread. Please retract that baseless smear.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:57
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:There was a precedent for this called the PLO and affiliated organizations like the PFLP. Part of the issue as I see it, is that most of the debate around these matters is essentially media criticism. It's about texts and framing in the discourse. The anti-Nazi resistances in WWII were generally working with the Allied militaries fighting against the Nazis. They thus had a clear path to victory and clear goals to achieve: sabotaging and impeding the German war effort to help the Allies beat them on the frontlines and get their countries liberated faster. They received support and funding from the Allies, and in return provided whatever assistance they could, while also making sure to more or less stay on the Allies' good side. Also, the fact that even Germany itself was under authoritarian rule by the same fascists occupying their countries, as well as the fact that there was a war on and thus civilians tolerated all sorts of extra restrictions for the sake of the war, meant that striking at German civilians would have been very difficult, and that wartime censorship would have kept it out of the press anyway. Though that didn't stop resistance movements from summarily executing plenty of civilians they suspected of being collaborators with the Nazis, and I've seen some allegations that some resistance groups prioritized flashy, destructive attacks that got their names out over more precise attacks that would have hurt the Germans worse. You can see that the international support they received and the existence of active major military campaigns against the Nazis were key factors in deciding the resistance groups' tactics. The resistances didn't ever think that they'd be able to defeat the Nazis or liberate their countries themselves, so the existence of an actual international anti-Nazi war was the most important thing to them. Similarly, the lack of any international campaign against Israel defines the tactics of Palestinians and other anti-colonial guerilla resistances. They're well aware that they can't directly defeat their occupiers with military force, so that leaves them with two basic options: 1) big showy attacks that make the world news in hopes that it'll draw international attention to their plight and prevent them from being forgotten 2) doing whatever they can to show that the occupier can never be truly safe or comfortable while engaging in oppression, and that no amount of military superiority will prevent the resistance from finding ways to somehow strike back in ways the occupier can't effectively prevent, in hopes that this disturbs the occupier's political will to continue occupying There's also another motive that doesn't really play into explicit military goals: reprisals for previous crimes. Forget the resistances - the actual Allied armies (real organized military forces with actual military discipline) both committed plenty of atrocities and war crimes against the Axis once they were winning. On the Pacific Front, Allied soldiers (well aware of how Imperial Japan tended to treat prisoners) were notoriously quick to murder POWs, and the US leadership never really considered the idea of not nuking major Japanese cities. On the Western Front, the Allies openly firebombed entire cities with the hopes of breaking the German will to resist (similarly to how they did in Japan), only barely bothering to pretend that they weren't openly targeting civilians. And on the Eastern Front where the Nazis had done the bulk of their atrocities, the Red Army wasn't exactly known for its kindness and consideration toward the populace when it was pushing into Germany. All of these organized, disciplined 20th-century militaries were quite capable of bloody reprisals and atrocities (even against civilians) in response to perceived or actual atrocities by their foes; it shouldn't be any shock that guerilla forces are capable of the same. i fly airplanes posted:That's not releasing hostages. That's using hostages to negotiate, and hostage negotiations is what terrorists do. No, hostage negotiations is what people who want to see the hostages freed do. If somebody has taken hostages, and you want them to release the hostages, then you have to negotiate with them. Period. Doesn't matter if taking hostages is unethical, doesn't matter if taking hostages is against international law, doesn't matter if the head of state tried to prove his toughness to voters by vowing to never negotiate with enemies. If you want the hostages freed safely, you negotiate. That's the only way to accomplish it. Not sure how "lecture them about ethics and international law while making demands and offering nothing" works as a negotiation tactic, but I do know I'd pay good money to watch the looks on Hamas leaders' faces as an Israeli diplomat lectures them about international law and protection of civilians. A couple of them might just die laughing from the sheer hypocrisy of it. Of course, you could try just rescuing the hostages by force, but modern military tactics seem to have a rather poor success rate at rescuing hostages without getting them killed in the crossfire, and Israel apparently doesn't even know where the hostages are this time anyway. Lid posted:I agree with you there, but your second line is the one I've been pushed back in "anything else to improve even". I'd like to think things could improve but when discussing this everyone's been saying it doesn't matter because Israel would never honour it anyway. I probably have been conflating ceasefire with peace talks but that's because I see one having to follow the other. And it's why I was saying that Israel would I guess only come to the table if Hamas surrendered and was replaced. It's not disputed Hamas planned the incursion on October 7th, it's not disputed that universally that was condemned, and I think that people calling it terrorism are being dickheads as it was a state-based actor leadership so it was closer to an act of war. But like other wars, and Israel will cite Nuremberg on this, the leadership will have to hang in surrender and it will receive little to no push back from relevant state actors because the idea of this Palestinan leadership serving this unscathed after what they planned and executed is impossible. The problem here is that your fundamental assumption of "Israel would come to the table if Hamas surrendered and was replaced" is wrong. One of the major factors leading to Hamas' rise was that peaceful negotiations weren't accomplishing anything, with Israel demanding extensive concessions from Palestinians in deals and then making up excuses to not carry out their side of the deal. And the entire time, Israel would be continuing to expand the settlements, oppress the Palestinians, and generally show zero signs of having any actual interest in keeping the deal. This led to a perception among Palestinians that fully peaceful negotiations with Israel were useless because Israel had no intention to negotiate in good faith - that Israel was perfectly happy and comfortable with the status quo, and therefore no real progress could be made unless the Palestinians could make the status quo sufficiently uncomfortable that Israel would be willing to make concessions to change it. The violent militants aren't under the impression that they're going to defeat Israel militarily; they're just trying to make the occupation as expensive and annoying as possible, to show Israel that they can't simply tolerate the status quo and that military repression alone won't stop the Palestinian resistance. Yeah, Israeli leadership probably thinks Hamas leadership all deserves to hang for the atrocities they committed on Oct 7th. But Hamas leadership probably thinks Israeli leadership deserves to hang for the atrocities committed in 2008, 2014, 2018-9, and so on - not to mention the general atrocities that have gone on nonstop since 2008, and the numerous Israeli massacres of Palestinians that predate 2008. Senjuro posted:There's also plenty of IDF bases that are both closer and in the middle of nowhere. Far more likely to hit those if they actually tried. Not necessarily, no. These are unguided rockets. It's not like Hamas has artillery spotters on the ground in Israel who can help them make fine adjustments to their aim, and even if they did, Qassams are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. Because they're homemade missiles essentially slapped together in people's garages using whatever materials can be easily repurposed, their design heavily prioritizes ease of manufacture even at the cost of accuracy and effectiveness, so it's impossible to really aim them at a specific building or even a specific series of buildings. They can pick the direction they launch it in, and they can heavily influence its range, but it's relatively unstable in flight and won't necessarily follow a straight ballistic course, so just controlling the launch direction and fuel load doesn't give as much influence over its flightpath as you'd think. There's also the fact that these rockets don't have the power to do meaningful military damage in the first place. One or two rockets hitting a fortified military site would be essentially pointless, and they don't have the capability to focus fire. Qassams are essentially just annoyance weapons.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:01
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Civilized Fishbot posted:In what way did they free themselves by killing migrant workers and children? It’s war. Civilians die in war and soldiers commit war crimes. It sucks. Especially in the context of colonization, that sort of violence is extremely common. Native Americans scalped children and there were massacres of whites during the slave revolts. To understand that is not to condone or condemn it. The problem is to use a very complex event and paint it in an extremely simplistic context to delegitimize the resistance as a whole. There is also a question of whether colonizers and settlers have absolutely immunity from violence. I’m not convinced personally of their innocence. Ultimately I wish an end to violence and for a single, secular state, but I’m not going to tut-tut the only resistance to genocide that has shown any effectiveness. All other paths have lead to complete failure.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:02
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I was saying that the actions of Israel negatively effect Jewish people because of a conflation which Israel itself deliberately perpetuates. I did not not blame the victims of that attack for being attacked. Nor do I recall blaming victims at any other point in this thread. Please retract that baseless smear. I will retract what I said but it's not a baseless smear. These were your words: Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I mean, it is obviously a direct response to Israel committing genocide on a Muslim population Please explain how targetting Jews and Israelis is so "obvious": considering that flights have operating carrying these groups of people up until now without being met with antisemitism.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:04
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Rukeli posted:Release the hostages and surrender. Israel isn't going to stop this time, and nobody is going to stop Israel. if someone's holding you underwater do you exhale and get it over with or claw at their eyes a bit first? they call them death throes, not death give-ups
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Oct 30, 2023 02:05
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Mean Baby posted:
I'm gonna say that literal babies aren't colonizers or settlers. The Thai dude doing manual labor on a farm probably isn't either.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:05
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Mean Baby posted:Ultimately I wish an end to violence and for a single, secular state, but I’m not going to tut-tut the only resistance to genocide that has shown any effectiveness. All other paths have lead to complete failure. How has it been effective? If your bar is "any effectiveness" then you could point at Oslo which at least resulted in Israel withdrawing from Jericho and much of the Gaza strip.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:05
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i fly airplanes posted:People angered at Israel's government or not, there is no excuse to target innocent civilians, this distinction should be obvious. And the Russian Muslims (note they are not Palestinians) in this case are not clean from responsibility. I'm confused why you're shocked that people around the world react negatively to the fact a US-armed and funded terrorist group is carrying out mass killings of one of the poorest and most destitute populations in the Middle East.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:08
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i fly airplanes posted:https://apnews.com/article/russia-dagestan-tel-aviv-flight-airport-makhachkala-fa06b16131ed41c0c789981cdcaac84f It's literally a plane from Israel. If you're not just trolling here and literally believe this has nothing to do with Israel you need to go to therapy or something.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:08
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DeadlyMuffin posted:How has it been effective? Israel didn't boot the settlers out of Gaza until militant action forced them to.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:11
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:13
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i fly airplanes posted:I will retract what I said but it's not a baseless smear. These were your words: Those were my words yes. Your own statement supports mine. These flights have been happening normally until Israel killed well over 7,000 Palestinians and buried thousands more under rubble. The attack by these people is profoundly unlikely to be anything other than a direct result of their anger at what Israel is doing stirred into a hysterical frenzy by malicious rabble-rousers. Hence "obvious."
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Oct 30, 2023 02:14
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BUUNNI posted:I'm confused why you're shocked that people around the world react negatively to the fact a US-armed and funded terrorist group is carrying out mass killings of one of the poorest and most destitute populations in the Middle East. How about an Iranian-funded terrorist group (actually designated as one) also carrying out mass killings in one of the richest and most developed populations in the Middle East? WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Personally I don't think Hamas or allied groups in the resistance did anything wrong on October 7th. Yeah, so the mask is off and you support war crimes and a terrorist organization.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:14
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Personally I don't think Hamas or allied groups in the resistance did anything wrong on October 7th. Palestine has a right to defend itself by any means necessary, and there were provably more active military personnel at that rave than under the dozen or so hospitals destroyed since. If I were Israel I wouldn't use concert goers as human shields is all I'm saying. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 30, 2023 02:15
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i fly airplanes posted:How about an Iranian-funded terrorist group (actually designated as one) also carrying out mass killings in one of the richest and most developed populations in the Middle East? Can you believe Israel created the conditions to allow that to happen? Damning, really. And then all the genocide as a response to their own failure.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:19
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Unormal posted:It's literally a plane from Israel. If you're not just trolling here and literally believe this has nothing to do with Israel you need to go to therapy or something. the misinformation here is actually somewhat interesting - as far as I can tell there was not actually a single Israeli on the plane, the protesters/mob worked themselves into a lather anyway (and may have been largely people with Palestinian relatives or origin, so, you know) reporting on the source of the misinformation is not something I'm equipped to follow rn, what with it being in a remote-ish part of Russia whose local languages are Decidedly Not English also if my information is wrong then hey, that's interesting too Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Those were my words yes. Your own statement supports mine. These flights have been happening normally until Israel killed well over 7,000 Palestinians and buried thousands more under rubble. The attack by these people is profoundly unlikely to be anything other than a direct result of their anger at what Israel is doing stirred into a hysterical frenzy by malicious rabble-rousers. Hence "obvious." yeah that's what this looks like to me so far
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Oct 30, 2023 02:20
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i say swears online posted:if someone's holding you underwater do you exhale and get it over with or claw at their eyes a bit first? they call them death throes, not death give-ups They're indeed like drowning people, clinging to everyone around them.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:20
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mannerup posted:are children "colonizers and settlers"? people attending a music festival? foreign workers? Israeli citizens in general? at least you are honest enough to state you believe the civilians slaughtered were not innocent and therefore violent atrocities are permitted to be committed on them People attending a rave next to Gaza would be stupid, at the very least. You might as well have one on a slave plantation. It sucks that children, migrants, and others died who are innocent. likely in crossfire in most instance. For children in particular, their parents shouldn’t have them live in an apartheid state. It’s also good that so far no one 0-3 has died on October 7th. Again, civilians die in war. Israel could end their apartheid state tomorrow and they are responsible for the casualties. Mean Baby fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:21
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:23
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Bel Shazar posted:Can you believe Israel created the conditions to allow that to happen? Damning, really. And then all the genocide as a response to their own failure. Would you consider America also responsible for 9/11? Mean Baby posted:People attending a rave next to Gaza would be stupid, at the very least. You might as well have one on a slave plantation. Is it good that 3-18 year olds died on October 7th, or did you point this out just to relitigate the butchered babies story? Why is Israel responsible for their civilians being killed in a terrorist attack? Is France responsible for ISIS massacring a concert in Paris?
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Oct 30, 2023 02:24
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mannerup posted:are children "colonizers and settlers"? people attending a music festival? foreign workers? Israeli citizens in general? at least you are honest enough to state you believe the civilians slaughtered were not innocent and therefore violent atrocities are permitted to be committed on them in order, no, yes except for the foreigners in which case possibly, most likely not, yes Israel is a settler-colonial ethnostate, and by direct consequence of that, the jewish citizens of israel are settlers by default. Almost every single adult in Israel has, at mininum, indirectly contributed to the genocide of Palestinians through conscription into the IDF. This is the reality of apartheid, and neither its victims nor its perpetrators can escape it. i fly airplanes posted:Would you consider America also responsible for 9/11? Of course America is responsible for 9/11, we loving funded the people who did it! Multiple times! Through multiple state actors! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:26
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i fly airplanes posted:Why is Israel responsible for their civilians being killed in a terrorist attack? Is France responsible for ISIS massacring a concert in Paris? Because they created the situation in which it took place.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:27
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God, it's like talking with this one dude that always has to interject BUT WHAT ABOUT DRESDEN BOMBING in any WW2 discussion.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:31
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i fly airplanes posted:Would you consider America also responsible for 9/11? Yes, absolutely yes. Make war on the world... let realpolitik and cost dictate action... Yes, always blame the state. Particularly what that state's keeping a whole other population prisoner. The US govt is responsible for getting attacked on 9/11 and the Israeli government is responsible for Oct 7. Always... always blame the state.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:31
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Personally I don't think Hamas or allied groups in the resistance did anything wrong on October 7th. Palestine has a right to defend itself by any means necessary, and there were provably more active military personnel at that rave than under the dozen or so hospitals destroyed since. If I were Israel I wouldn't use concert goers as human shields is all I'm saying. This is a reasonable position.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:34
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mannerup posted:I also appreciate your honesty that you see nothing wrong with slaughtering women and children. I hope the supporters of Israel in this thread can be similarly honest.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:35
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i fly airplanes posted:Would you consider America also responsible for 9/11? Funnily enough America also revenge killed an immense number of utterly innocent people out of racism, pique, and political cynicism, guaranteeing another generation of people who would like to do a 9/11 of their own. The parallels are incredible.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:38
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Groovelord Neato posted:Israel didn't boot the settlers out of Gaza until militant action forced them to. Israel didn't boot the settlers out of Gaza until they came to a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel. I think it's an absurd simplification to argue that violence is the only thing that shown any effectiveness, which is what I was responding to.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:43
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i fly airplanes posted:Would you consider America also responsible for 9/11? Is this a joke? We literally armed, funded, and trained the people that carried out the 9/11 attacks in order to weaken the USSR.....  WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Personally I don't think Hamas or allied groups in the resistance did anything wrong on October 7th. Palestine has a right to defend itself by any means necessary, and there were provably more active military personnel at that rave than under the dozen or so hospitals destroyed since. If I were Israel I wouldn't use concert goers as human shields is all I'm saying. Exactly, if the US had funded and planned the Oct. 7 attack all we would know is that an unknown number of military-aged combatants and security forces clashed with one of our allied forces. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:46
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Main Paineframe posted:The anti-Nazi resistances in WWII were generally working with the Allied militaries fighting against the Nazis. They thus had a clear path to victory and clear goals to achieve: sabotaging and impeding the German war effort to help the Allies beat them on the frontlines and get their countries liberated faster. ... Similarly, the lack of any international campaign against Israel defines the tactics of Palestinians and other anti-colonial guerilla resistances. I dunno. At the least, I can't say I find the Hamas leadership particularly inspiring. I saw one official tell the FT the other day that they were "surprised" that the U.S. is getting involved. “An Israeli response? Yes, we expected that ... But what we’re seeing now is the entrance of the US into the battle, and this we didn’t count on.” That seems like a pretty bad plan if that's the case. But he also said the goal was to only grab 10-20 hostages. Instead they exceeded that by 12x. They didn't seem to have control over their own soldiers, and there were other groups and even random civilians who ran through the fence and grabbed people and Hamas doesn't even know where they are -- so they might not even be able to negotiate the return of some of these people even if they want to. I read someone else describe what happened as an example of "catastrophic success" resulting in blowback. I think it'll lead to Hamas' destruction -- and I'm not endorsing this, either. I'm trying to think as rationally as possible. There was a former U.S. Middle East envoy writing in the NYT the other day that (and take this with a grain of salt) that Arab officials he's talking to all tell him they believe Hamas must be destroyed but they're just not saying that publicly. If that's true, that's disastrous. To condone that is to condone a grievous miscalculation by inept resistance leaders and the suckers who are following them toward doom. People are living in these propaganda bubbles where they just consume their own misinformation, and they misjudge the objective situation or the consequences of their actions; and even during the disaster there's plenty more of it telling them the flames from the exploding car they're riding in are actually just making it go faster. But people are incentivized to spread this stuff for fame and profit. Just as an aside on media stuff: I've seen all kinds of people who mocked Elon Musk for turning X (formerly Twitter -- as every news article refers to it) into a toxic waste dump that's useless for information now who are using that as their main source, and I'm gazing stupefied on the whole phenomenon. Main Paineframe posted:No, hostage negotiations is what people who want to see the hostages freed do. If somebody has taken hostages, and you want them to release the hostages, then you have to negotiate with them. Period. Doesn't matter if taking hostages is unethical, doesn't matter if taking hostages is against international law, doesn't matter if the head of state tried to prove his toughness to voters by vowing to never negotiate with enemies. If you want the hostages freed safely, you negotiate. That's the only way to accomplish it. In this case of the Israeli hostages and POWs (somewhat different in the case of soldiers taken prisoner) then I don't see any resolution without a cease fire and then an international agreement between the different warring parties. But the competition between Israel and Iran and the involvement of the United States on the side of Israel for example is making that impossible for the time being, so it's a wretched situation. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 03:08
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I hope the supporters of Israel in this thread can be similarly honest. How many supporters of Israel even exist in this thread?
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Oct 30, 2023 03:19
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If you do want to calculate the correct amount of finger-wagging to level at HAMAS you should understand that, like America and 9/11, blame for the deaths of the settlers and ravers lies ultimately with the apartheid Zionist entity and its abettors in the west. They created the political environment that gave rise to (necessitated, really) HAMAS as well as political and material support, albeit in roundabout or clandestine ways. No doubt that some fraction of blame lies with the actual persons that pulled the triggers, but attempting to determine and assign that blame seems -- even if we weren't on the 22nd day of an ongoing genocide against the people of Palestine -- seems like a waste of time. Now, particularly, it seems absolutely ghoulish. So much so that, in my estimation, still continuing to argue about it would be at cross-purposes with any goal except to try to distract and confuse on the behalf of the apartheid regime as amateur (?) propagandists. Just my opinion, though! For me, personally, I can not bring myself to condemn the HAMAS freedom fighters, even if I were to disagree with their methods, considering they are Palestine's only means of striking back against the depraved fascists that build and operate their concentration camp. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 30, 2023 03:44
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MikeC posted:Source and explain how raining rockets into Israeli cities targetting civilian population centers actively achieved this. Overloading the iron dome is what enabled the ultralights to fly over and disable the fence. If Hamas's rocket barrage had killed civilians, Israel would have plastered their bodies over their entire propaganda media apparatus. Instead they ran with baby decapitations because it's looking more and more like the October 7 Israeli civilians were killed by chickenshit IDF panicking. E: As of three days ago, IDF is claiming a total of 11 rocket deaths. Given the Hannibal directive, IDF's indiscriminate target selection, the non-state eyewitnes account, and uncontested documentation of unmolested Israelis, it seems more extraordinary to claim IDF has killed fewer than a dozen of their own civilians. E: According to UN numbers, Israeli forces have killed more than 5x as many UN workers than the Hamas rockets. Granted, that's over the whole conflict - but so is the other figure. moths fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 03:55
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moths posted:Instead they ran with baby decapitations because it's looking more and more like the October 7 Israeli civilians were killed by chickenshit IDF panicking. Is there any actual evidence of this that isn't one lady saying she didn't see anyone shot by Israelis or is this just literal propaganda that people are repeating.
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Oct 30, 2023 03:56
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nesbit37 posted:A lot of these recent posts are feeling way too much like oct. 7th denial which is too close to holocaust denial IMO. I get they're not saying it didn't happen at all but the event is really getting trivialized. There’s no need to vaguely wave at what some posters think when you can quote anyone you’re referencing.
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Oct 30, 2023 03:57
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