|
Mid-Life Crisis posted:Jan 6th? Where all those crazy white folk took guns to the capital and started holding government officials hostage? Oh wait, they had plenty of guns and miserable people and they managed to not use them at all?? Just a bunch of selfies after the cops opened up the doors for them. BLM should take note what not to do, maybe they should’ve started fires and raided all the nearby stores. https://abcnews.go.com/US/approximately-1000-assaults-law-enforcement-occurred-capitol-attack/story?id=79793226
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 09:18 |
|
|
fridgraidr posted:Voting for a democrat and voting for a republican president are basically the same thing, in fact, it’s probably better if a republican wins actually because… Libertarians and Accelerationists are the 2 ends of the dumbass horseshoe for sure.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 14:20
|
|
|
Mid-Life Crisis posted:You want to help a trans person? Do so at a personal level. A local level. Cool, so will someone break me out of prison after I get sent there for using the bathroom? Or for, god forbid, simply walking out my front door dressed how I want? Is someone going to smuggle hormone pills to me so that I don't die due to my body's inability to produce hormones after surgery? How the gently caress will trans people be protected from the Trump regime at a "personal/local level?" Someone already linked this, but I'll link it again. They want to loving kill us and they have a plan to do it, right here: https://www.project2025.org/ I'm voting Biden because I don't want to be killed or forced to run from my own country. I don't loving care if someone says I support genocide. I'm voting to stop a second one here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 15:59
|
|
|
It's really hard to believe that somebody could think they weren't hurting trans people by refusing to vote for Democrats when the other party, upon winning, has promised and demonstrated that they will impose the harshest laws possible to punish trans people and refuse them healthcare. If you are still somehow finding a way to say to yourself that you aren't hurting them by withholding your vote, I really, really don't understand how. If you don't want to vote because you think it somehow upholds the status quo in a way that not voting doesn't, then at least have the courage of your convictions to say that the horrors inflicted on trans people and unwillingly pregnant women are worth it, because of the bigger picture. Don't try to pretend you aren't directly refusing to help those people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:18
|
|
|
The problem is that "is the suffering of trans people worth the suffering of Palestinian people" should not be a question asked in a sane world. But it's apparently calculus that each person has to make in order to just vote in an election.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:40
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:The problem is that "is the suffering of trans people worth the suffering of Palestinian people" should not be a question asked in a sane world. But it's apparently calculus that each person has to make in order to just vote in an election. No, it's not. You're getting either the Dems or the GOP. The GOP is not going to save the Palestinian people but the GOP will absolutely ban trans people and abortion (they are doing this now)
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:42
|
|
|
Sure but things are off the loving rails if "I want zero genocide" is the unrealistic naive baby position
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:45
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:The problem is that "is the suffering of trans people worth the suffering of Palestinian people" should not be a question asked in a sane world. But it's apparently calculus that each person has to make in order to just vote in an election. It doesn’t help counter the “this isn’t a sane world” argument but the real question is “would we rather have the suffering of Palestinian AND trans people or just the suffering of Palestinian people?”
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:48
|
|
|
Kinda ridiculous that Kant wrote about the categorical imperative 250 years ago and today 90% of internet political discourse is just people fumbling around to express the same concepts much less thoughtfully
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:48
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Sure but things are off the loving rails if "I want zero genocide" is the unrealistic naive baby position Not to speak for everyone but I would say that anyone itt who is saying that you should vote anyway is in full agreement with that sentiment. It's hosed but that's not a good reason to let it get more hosed. Voting isn't enough to bring us away from this mess but not voting is stupid as it will also render your non-electoral political actions less effective. Especially if it leads to candidates who are even more deeply opposed to the policies you'd like to see becoming elected.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:The problem is that "is the suffering of trans people worth the suffering of Palestinian people" should not be a question asked in a sane world. But it's apparently calculus that each person has to make in order to just vote in an election. You'd only have to make that decision if Biden was better on trans rights (and Ukraine) and Trump was better on Israel. Trump is worse on all three, so you really don't. Even if they were though, voting is just saying who you'd prefer to have in office, there's no rule that you have to have the same opinion on every issue as the person you vote for. People vote for the nice and good looking candidate all the time, without even thinking about policy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
Queering Wheel posted:Cool, so will someone break me out of prison after I get sent there for using the bathroom? Or for, god forbid, simply walking out my front door dressed how I want? Is someone going to smuggle hormone pills to me so that I don't die due to my body's inability to produce hormones after surgery? How the gently caress will trans people be protected from the Trump regime at a "personal/local level?" Also local level volunteering is pretty useless for updating documents/IDs so we don't need to out ourselves every time we show ID, getting access to any medical care at all if a doctor or hospital just doesn't feel like treating trans people (not just for gender affirming care but also basic stuff like an appendix bursting), not promoting far right medical groups like the "American College Of Pediatricians" to create medical standards of care that are explicitly transphobic, etc. There are handy maps to track how much of the US is currently unsafe to have trans kids in or to be a trans person at all in, due to Republican policies  https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/anti-trans-legislative-risk-assessment burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Sure but things are off the loving rails if "I want zero genocide" is the unrealistic naive baby position Pretty sure genocide is the rails.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 16:51
|
|
|
I’m still curious as to how one would convince Palestinian Americans who are seeing their friends and families genocided by Israel to vote for Biden who is fully backing the genocidal apartheid regime in Israel Edit: meant vote not cover. Autocorrected on me theCalamity fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:07
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:I’m still curious as to how one would convince Palestinian Americans who are seeing their friends and families genocided by Israel to cover for Biden who is fully backing the genocidal apartheid regime in Israel "I truly wish there was an option to vote for president that did not support Israel. However, 2/2 options both do. However, 1/2 options does not support the genocide of transgender and other LGBT people, while the other 1/2 does. Therefore I will use the vote I have to prevent the genocide that's still preventable and will do whatever I can to protest and support candidates that do oppose all genocides. And if the situations were reversed, I would totally understand and agree with your vote if you could only vote to stop the genocide of Palestinians but not transgender people"
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:13
|
|
|
When I was in college I used to do protest votes and poo poo, and I said in conversation "If we get to the point where we HAVE to vote for a lesser of 2 evils every time and that's the only option, then the country is in a sad state!  " and I was super naive but also exactly right. I just didn't realize that we were already there, and we're SURE as poo poo there now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:14
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:I’m still curious as to how one would convince Palestinian Americans who are seeing their friends and families genocided by Israel to cover for Biden who is fully backing the genocidal apartheid regime in Israel "I disagree with Biden's support of Israel"? Kalit fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:Kinda ridiculous that Kant wrote about the categorical imperative 250 years ago and today 90% of internet political discourse is just people fumbling around to express the same concepts much less thoughtfully The real crime being committed here is a failure to treat 'responsibility' and 'causality' as ambiguous terms, instead everyone settling on varying absolute definitions of those terms to use as cudgels.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:26
|
|
|
Kyrsten Sinema's independent bid does not seem to be striking fire based on her conversations with Mitt. https://twitter.com/PimaDems/status/1718849962627526977 At least she's comfortable with her legacy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:28
|
|
|
burnishedfume posted:"I truly wish there was an option to vote for president that did not support Israel. However, 2/2 options both do. However, 1/2 options does not support the genocide of transgender and other LGBT people, while the other 1/2 does. Therefore I will use the vote I have to prevent the genocide that's still preventable and will do whatever I can to protest and support candidates that do oppose all genocides. And if the situations were reversed, I would totally understand and agree with your vote if you could only vote to stop the genocide of Palestinians but not transgender people" I don’t think that will be very convincing. You’re asking people to support the person who is helping in murdering their family, an extraordinary position and this doesn’t really match what is being asked of them. In fact, I think they will become very angry with you if you tried that. It’s incredibly despicable that there is a calculus in who gets to be genocided or not. I don’t know if you realize or it, but you’re basically asking one group to sacrifice themselves to save another. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:30
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:I don’t think that will be very convincing. You’re asking people to support the person who is helping in murdering their family, an extraordinary position and this doesn’t really match what is being asked of them. In fact, I think they will become very angry with you if you tried that. No you're not, because not voting for Biden isn't going to have any effect on the genocide they themselves are suffering. We can all disagree about how convincing that argument is, but characterizing it as "asking one group to sacrifice themselvs to save another" is not at all accurate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:34
|
|
|
Is anyone getting anything out of the conversation at this point?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:37
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:I don’t think that will be very convincing. You’re asking people to support the person who is helping in murdering their family, an extraordinary position and this doesn’t really match what is being asked of them. In fact, I think they will become very angry with you if you tried that. Are you arguing that the GOP is somehow pro-Palestinian? You're really gonna need to cite a source if you want to argue Trump would be doing something more to help Palestinians than Biden is. Do you realize you're asking me to accept the election of a party that wants to genocide me?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:I don’t think that will be very convincing. You’re asking people to support the person who is helping in murdering their family, an extraordinary position and this doesn’t really match what is being asked of them. In fact, I think they will become very angry with you if you tried that. And you're being particularly helpful with this? Are Palestinians going to die happier knowing that you are proudly astride your high horse holding out a small amount of help from someone else because voting would sully your moral purity? I don't see how taking umbrage with a bad situation and refusing to engage helps anyone. No one here is under the impression that this is a good or fair situation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
*watching Trump abandon Kurds in Syria, recognize Israel border expansion, raising tensions with Iran by assassinating a general and scrapping the Nuclear Deal* Well, he's better on the middle east than Biden!
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:41
|
|
|
Blue Footed Booby posted:Is anyone getting anything out of the conversation at this point? Lots of people have gotten probations, some people have gotten angry. Zero minds have been changed or stimulated
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:48
|
|
|
Dubar posted:Zero minds have been changed or stimulated
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:49
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
Push El Burrito posted:*watching Trump abandon Kurds in Syria, recognize Israel border expansion, raising tensions with Iran by assassinating a general and scrapping the Nuclear Deal* That's something I've said before and it's still apt here. There's an oft-cited refrain of "Liberals rehabilitated Bush, and they'll rehabilitate Trump, just you see." And it's half true, because while both happened it wasn't liberals: it was people trying to dunk on Democrats whether from the left or libertarianwards or what. For eight years every valid-but-boring criticism of Obama got spiced up with a heavy shake of "As bad as Bush!" while the memories of what Bush actually did faded so people got to thinking that "huh, that howling rage against him was just kayfabe?" Trump was getting it even before he was in office, people who never planned to vote for him still glossing him up just so they could argue against Clinton. Some of that was insisting he was gonna outflank the Dems from the left on domestic policy, but it also included pretending he was going to be all hands-off in foreign policy even while he was promising to bomb more Muslims, kill more civilians, and snuggle up to Israel in whole new ways that Kenyan Muslim atheist communist would never dare. Then he absolutely kept those promises.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 17:57
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:That's something I've said before and it's still apt here. There's an oft-cited refrain of "Liberals rehabilitated Bush, and they'll rehabilitate Trump, just you see." And it's half true, because while both happened it wasn't liberals: it was people trying to dunk on Democrats whether from the left or libertarianwards or what. That and also saying Bush was bad but Trump was worse was somehow rehabbing Bush.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:06
|
|
|
fridgraidr posted:Voting for a democrat and voting for a republican president are basically the same thing, in fact, it’s probably better if a republican wins actually because… I never understood this mutually-exclusive set of arguments. The two parties are identical, but Trump et al winning would be so bad that they would bring about revolution. So which one is it?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:Kinda ridiculous that Kant wrote about the categorical imperative 250 years ago and today 90% of internet political discourse is just people fumbling around to express the same concepts much less thoughtfully Kant's notoriously difficult to read and he gave himself a ton of page space to explain his concepts. Give amateur internet posters a break. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
DynamicSloth posted:Kyrsten Sinema's independent bid does not seem to be striking fire based on her conversations with Mitt.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:My assumption for awhile has been that she is not going to run in 2024 and go take some cushy six figure job at a former donor’s business I wouldn't be surprised if doing a spoiler run in 2024 is a condition for her getting said cushy job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:11
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Sure but things are off the loving rails if "I want zero genocide" is the unrealistic naive baby position Have you read any human history? Prehistoric genocide Homo sapiens ethnically cleansed every other remotely peer hominid before we even had written language. The "I want zero genocide" is an extremely recent development in human social evolution like the last hundred years recent. Origin of the term genocide. Think about that for a moment, we didn't have a term for it until halfway through the 20th century it was just how poo poo was done. So yeah at this point "I want zero genocides" is an aspirational goal that is very far from being actualized. Also as has been pointed out Gaza is far from the only ongoing genocide taking place, it's just the most visible at the moment because Ukraine has become a stalemate and the media is bored with it and others involve brown on brown genocide so our corporate media gives no fucks about covering them. Now I've yet to see either of these two things come out of the Accelerationists. First an answer to if voting doesn't matter then why do the Fash spend so much time, effort and money to prevent people from doing it? Second show me one historical example where the collapse of a government has ever resulted in a more humane and progressive society? Incrementalism through electoralism has a demonstrated history of successfully shifting society to a more progressive and tolerant state, accelerationism has not. Also electoralism is more than just voting, it also includes organizing, protesting, boycotting etc etc etc all of which is done to shift the views of the public which is ultimately manifested in election outcomes. At no time in my life have the very real and substantial differences between the two parties been more clearly obvious. There are two choices and one of them is going to win. One party has mixed feelings about the Palestinian conflict and the other is pro extermination. One party supports the continuation of democracy and a secular civil society and the other wants to establish a white "Christian"* ethnostate. One wants the erase trans people (and you can bet all LGBTQ+ folks when that's done) and the other doesn't. Voting blue no matter who isn't going to fix things in the short to mid term, but at least it keeps the possibility of doing so alive. The GOP's goal is to literally shut that possibility down forever. *Supply Side Jesus edition .
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:That and also saying Bush was bad but Trump was worse was somehow rehabbing Bush. In defense of that, Trump didn't directly do anything equivalent to Bush's invasion of Iraq and its broader destabilization of the Middle East. Even if there were things he did that caused mass foreign deaths, like how his blowing off various public health/pandemic prevention things Bush cared about has repercussions beyond however it affected global covid response. But having more innocent blood on his hands than Obama was literally a campaign promise.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:The problem is that "is the suffering of trans people worth the suffering of Palestinian people" should not be a question asked in a sane world. But it's apparently calculus that each person has to make in order to just vote in an election. But that's not the question being asked. Because Palestinians would still suffer, and even more so under Republicans, and you will also get trans persecution at home. Again, the question is: is the world better off under Democrats or Republicans? The answer is actually obvious to you but you think you can absolve yourself of injustice in the world by not participating. Unfortunately, someone much less moral than you will make that choice for you. Edit: theCalamity posted:I don’t think that will be very convincing. You’re asking people to support the person who is helping in murdering their family, an extraordinary position and this doesn’t really match what is being asked of them. In fact, I think they will become very angry with you if you tried that. Bold prediction: most Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim Americans will vote for Biden because the other choice is... Trump. One is continuing support for Israel like all American presidents, Trump will do all that and so much more, and then call you a terrorist on top of it. small butter fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:15
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:In defense of that, Trump didn't directly do anything equivalent to Bush's invasion of Iraq and its broader destabilization of the Middle East. Even if there were things he did that caused mass foreign deaths, like how his blowing off various public health/pandemic prevention things Bush cared about has repercussions beyond however it affected global covid response. But having more innocent blood on his hands than Obama was literally a campaign promise. I agree mostly but it wasn't out of Trump being better than Bush, he was trying to start a war with Iran but somehow we all got out of it going hot.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:17
|
|
|
The GOP are essentially to blame for the voting problem, not the democrats, as they are the ones holding the metaphorical gun. They are the ones that have turned a fairly simple but important bit of democratic authority into an existential crisis. I mean there's a deeper problem when you have one party that has policy platforms and another who would like to end democracy. The problem is that voting will apparently never solve that issue, you've got to get to a place where you can vote for any candidate you want, even a third party, without a resulting trolley problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 18:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 09:18 |
|
|
small butter posted:I never understood this mutually-exclusive set of arguments. The two parties are identical, but Trump et al winning would be so bad that they would bring about revolution. So which one is it? I was paraphrasing the now probed post above my op. I also don’t understand.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 19:46
|
|