Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Senjuro: Aug 19, 2006

Looks like Israel successfully rescued one captured female soldier.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 17:33

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# ? May 25, 2024 16:57

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Edit: nevermind might be misconstrued

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Oct 30, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 17:34

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

edit: original link appears deleted

https://twitter.com/m7mdkurd/status/1718982214166204787

punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Oct 30, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 17:56

Collapsing Farts: Jun 29, 2018; ð

I just see broken links

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:10

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:18

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

other fun poll result in that is the question on "should we be allowed to do a little war crimes as a treat" and that in the breakdown the leftist Israeli Jews say no to about 80-85% i forget which i closed it

i want to know the 15-20% of Israeli Jewish leftists who had the sheer confidence to say "yes i believe in war crimes"

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:22

Szarrukin: Sep 29, 2021

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-3195-children-killed-three-weeks-surpasses-annual-number-children-killed-conflict-zones (no NSFW photos, but obviously mentions of children killed)

quote:

Children make up more than 40% of the 7,703 people killed in Gaza, and more than a third of all fatalities across the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel. With a further 1,000 children reported missing in Gaza assumed buried under the rubble, the death toll is likely much higher.

But sure, keep talking about October 7th

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:41

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

I don't think concepts like race or nation have no power -- they certainly have motivating power, just that they are transient (on the macro scale) and epiphenomenal. I would not call antisemitism "socialist", even though I understand your example, because socialism isn't strictly about wealth distribution.

The rise of virulent antisemitism in Europe is an excellent example of the base material conditions creating the, as you note, cultural superstructure: Jews, being a people without a nation and ostracized throughout most of Europe could often only find work in places and fields others refused, one of those fields being banking. As the rise of capitalism exploited and dehumanized more and more of the now-laboring class of Europe, blame for the new system was displaced on to the Jews, whose relationship with banking made them a visible target for a people wholly new to the depredations of capital. This antisemitism persists through to the current day specifically because it reifies the capitalist power structure by creating a false consciousness of shadowy elites organizing some kind of Jewish world order -- antisemitism that the Zionist entity is fully happy to cater to, obvious in how profoundly nasty and stupid their external propaganda is, because it too reifies their positions of power and access to material wealth.

I think antisemitism stuck as a mode of racial-worldview-thought (for lack of a better term) because the statelessness of the Jews gave them a permanent outsider status, and is why they're so associated with banking and capital in comparison to the other groups that were also heavily involved with wealth management and distribution in the early stages of capital, the Catholic church especially. In a different world, a Jewish state that existed in some sort of harmony -- or at least homeostasis -- with its neighbors could have, I think, largely dissolved modern antisemitism by exposing the contradictions within antisemitic thought. But, again, antisemitism is useful to the Zionist entity, and so if we have an interest in destroying antisemitism, the dissolution of the apartheid Zionist ethnostate project is of utmost importance.

I think this might be mixing up cause and effect here. It's not that people grew to hate and reject Jews because Jews were pushed into unwanted jobs like banking - it's that Jews were pushed into unwanted jobs like banking because they were hated and rejected. Turning around and using that involvement in banking to explain the antisemitism doesn't really work, because widespread and virulent antisemitism is what forced them into banking in the first place. Legal and social restrictions made it difficult for them to enter fields where they might be able to own the means of production; they were often barred from owning land and heavily discriminated against by craft guilds.

Virulent antisemitism in Europe substantially predates capitalism. In the Middle Ages it was outwardly a primarily religious hatred, which shifted to racial hatred in the Enlightenment era due to secularization and the rise of modern concepts of national identities. In both cases, it was usually little more than simple hatred of cultural outsiders who refused to assimilate; while modern concepts of racism and national identity don't really predate the early modern era, distrust of and ostracization of cultural outsiders is something that goes back millennia. This also applies to groups like the Roma, who faced similar treatment despite not having any particular involvement with banking.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:43

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

Quds News Network reporting a strike on a cancer hospital in Gaza. I don't know anything about QNN though.

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1719026403088175593

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:53

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

Main Paineframe posted:

I think this might be mixing up cause and effect here. It's not that people grew to hate and reject Jews because Jews were pushed into unwanted jobs like banking - it's that Jews were pushed into unwanted jobs like banking because they were hated and rejected. Turning around and using that involvement in banking to explain the antisemitism doesn't really work, because widespread and virulent antisemitism is what forced them into banking in the first place. Legal and social restrictions made it difficult for them to enter fields where they might be able to own the means of production; they were often barred from owning land and heavily discriminated against by craft guilds.

Virulent antisemitism in Europe substantially predates capitalism. In the Middle Ages it was outwardly a primarily religious hatred, which shifted to racial hatred in the Enlightenment era due to secularization and the rise of modern concepts of national identities. In both cases, it was usually little more than simple hatred of cultural outsiders who refused to assimilate; while modern concepts of racism and national identity don't really predate the early modern era, distrust of and ostracization of cultural outsiders is something that goes back millennia. This also applies to groups like the Roma, who faced similar treatment despite not having any particular involvement with banking.

I was trying to explain the stickniness of antisemitism into the modern day, but you're right in that antisemitism certainly existed before the advent of capitalism, though I would argue that it was not yet the basis of a racial worldview that it would become as capital developed across Europe.
I would further point out the material basis for precapital antisemitism arising from Rome itself and its relationship to, and exploitation of, the Jews. But at this point I think I'm veering out of the focus of this thread

Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 30, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:19

By popular demand: Jul 17, 2007; IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!

Lid posted:

other fun poll result in that is the question on "should we be allowed to do a little war crimes as a treat" and that in the breakdown the leftist Israeli Jews say no to about 80-85% i forget which i closed it

i want to know the 15-20% of Israeli Jewish leftists who had the sheer confidence to say "yes i believe in war crimes"

No, you do not. :suicide:

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:27

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Document drafted by defense minister Liberman in 2016 predicted Hamas onslaught

quote:

In 2016, then-defense minister Avigdor Liberman drafted an 11-page document warning of Hamas plans to burst through the Gaza border, overrun communities in southern Israel, staging massacres and taking hostages, excerpts show.

The document, parts of which were published by the Yedioth Ahronoth daily this morning, eerily presages many elements of the October 7 onslaught and indicates that Israeli officials had been aware for several years of the potential for such a Hamas assault, but apparently did not take the warnings seriously enough.

That Saturday morning some 2,500 terrorists burst into Israel by land, sea, and air, killing over 1,400 people, a majority of them civilians, in their homes and at an outdoor music festival. Hamas and allied terrorist factions also dragged at least 239 hostages � including some 30 children � back to the Gaza Strip, where they remain captive.

�Hamas intends to take the conflict into Israeli territory by sending a significant number of well trained forces (like the Nukhba [commandos] for example) into Israel to try and capture an Israeli community (or maybe even several communities) on the Gaza border and take hostages,� Liberman wrote in the document, which was labeled top secret.

�Beyond the physical harm to the people, this will also lead to significant harm to the morale and feelings of the citizens of Israel.�

In an interview Saturday night, Liberman mentioned the document, saying he gave it to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in December 2016, warning that Hamas would attack in �precisely the way it did� on October 7 if its capabilities were not dismantled.

Liberman, who unlike Benny Gantz and his party has so far opted not to join Netanyahu�s war cabinet, says Netanyahu had to be persuaded to raise the issue at a cabinet meeting, where the document was �waved away dismissively,� including by security chiefs, and that he was made to feel �arrogant� for having presented it.

Comment: "Lieberman is an extremely secular, and extremely right wing, Soviet emigre, more of the former than the latter, hence his refusal to work with religious nut jobs in Netanyahu's current coalition, so his actions to shiv Bibi indicate that he feels that Netanyahu has no future."

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:33

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

VitalSigns posted:

That's an oversimplification.

If US policy to the Middle East had been different, there might not have been an Al Qaeda. If Israeli policy toward Palestinians had been different there might not be a Hamas.

The only policy to not have an Al-Qaeda, ISIS or Hamas would have been for the United States to completely drop it's support of Israel as a State. That's not realistic.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:36

mrmcd: Feb 22, 2003; Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

PostNouveau posted:

Quds News Network reporting a strike on a cancer hospital in Gaza. I don't know anything about QNN though.

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1719026403088175593

God these Hamas rockets are so poorly made.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:39

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

The only policy to not have an Al-Qaeda, ISIS or Hamas would have been for the United States to completely drop it's support of Israel as a State. That's not realistic.

Even then, AQ and ISIS both have basically every other Middle Eastern state on their target list. They're not exclusively focused on Israel and the US, they want the US out of the way so they can Underpants Gnome their way to the glorious Caliphate (run by themselves of course, not those other schmoes).

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:42

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

Google Jeb Bush posted:

Even then, AQ and ISIS both have basically every other Middle Eastern state on their target list. They're not exclusively focused on Israel and the US, they want the US out of the way so they can Underpants Gnome their way to the glorious Caliphate (run by themselves of course, not those other schmoes).

Correct. That's why blaming the US for these movements isn't quite right. I would say that poor foreign policy has certainly contributed but the cause at the end of the day it is religious extremists who are doing to violence.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:46

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Different Israeli policy could probably have prevented Hamas, or at least prevented it from ruling Gaza and being what it is today. Hamas didn't gain power until long after Israeli atrocities and bad faith discredited the PLO

Without US meddling in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, etc the Middle East would be so different it's impossible to say whether some fundamentalist group called Al Qaeda might still exist (after all the Soviets might still have invaded Afghanistan), but it's very likely without all the American weapons and money flowing into Afghanistan violent fundamentalism would have been much less of a problem and any group that did exist would have had much less reason and support to attack America even if America did support an Israel with 1948 borders. Plenty of countries support that and they didn't get 9/11'd. 9/11 did not have to happen.

I'm surprised it's even controversial that American actions created the conditions that caused 9/11, the chain of events is so clear, categorically denying it is They-Hate-Us-For-Our-Freedoms territory.

Or maybe I shouldn't be surprised. America didn't realize it either and just doubled down on terrorizing the Middle East and the result was ISIS and an even stronger Taliban. And here's Israel creating the next generation of terrorists right now.

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Oct 30, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 20:04

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

There is an argument to be made about a certain kind of inverse American exceptionalism that leads people to attribute all evil to the US and see everyone else as noble savages incapable of doing harm without American intervention.

But even acknowledging that the role of the American empire in providing fuel to extremist movements is impossible to deny. 9/11 was about bringing the horrors of empire to the metropole. Same goes for the October 7 attacks insofar as sadistic violence towards civilians is concerned. This doesn't excuse the terror attacks, but it is important to understand that they are products of empire.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 20:07

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

tbc my extremely briefly summarized position on Al Qaeda (and ISIS) in this context is: the pressures that led to their formation would exist if the US had gone full isolationist the whole time, but the US didn't have to go contribute to them and thereby also add itself to the target list

Osama's stated position was along the lines of "well if you weren't supporting the corrupt regimes of the Middle East, which is all of them, we'd already have toppled them and etc etc glorious calpihate, but you did, so that's on you" which is both succinct and probably optimistic on his part.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 21:55

By popular demand: Jul 17, 2007; IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!

Oh absolutely, a wasp's nest is a bad thing to have near you but the situation is not helped by having absolutely no informed plan on handling wasps and sticking your dick inside it.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 22:24

BougieBitch: Oct 2, 2013; Basic as hell

Main Paineframe posted:

An armed force taking civilians hostage is a war crime in the first place.

From an "international laws of war" perspective, Hamas never should have taken those hostages in the first place, and should immediately release them without any conditions. But by those same laws of war, Israel never should have established the Gaza blockade in the first place, let alone bombed the hell out of Gaza every couple of years since 2008, and even the settlements are illegal under international law. Unfortunately, all sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict have defied the laws of war so frequently and consistently that they don't really hold any meaning there anymore.

Not to minimize the war crimes part, but "release without any conditions" is literally not possible, or at least not in practice. The request for a ceasefire before the release of civilians isn't just cynical jockeying - it's the only way there would be any guarantee that the citizens make it home alive. Further, it's not clear that any border is open enough to allow people to leave, even if the hostages were coincidentally already right next to a border - probably the border with Egypt where the water came in a little while ago could serve that purpose to some degree, but there were also rockets hitting there not that long ago, so if Israel won't even commit to not dropping bombs on the parts they told civilians to evacuate to, then of course that applies just as much to international civilians or kidnapped Israeli civilians.

like I said last page, I really doubt the people in charge of keeping the hostages healthy are the same bloodlust psychos who did Oct 7th, by and large. There was a statement out a little while ago that said they were fine with releasing all non-Israeli hostages as soon as a ceasefire was called - I don't even think there was any precondition about duration, or if there was it was something short like 5 days. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that 5 days would really be game-changing to Hamas's ability to resist at this stage - that length of time probably represents the bare minimum to get hostages from the north to the south with no vehicles, shell-blasted roads, and no doubt some number of leg injuries.

The last thing Hamas wants at this stage is for the US and every European country to blame them for the death of hostages 3 weeks in to Israel proving themselves to be monstrous - they want to be able to get international support, and the worst possible option is for hostages to die in a way that Israel can plausibly deny responsibility for

# ? Oct 30, 2023 22:35

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

really disappointed to find out David Simon is a hardcore zionist/war crimes apologist. there is no such thing as a left wing Zionist huh

https://twitter.com/AoDespair/status/1719103130183278772

# ? Oct 30, 2023 22:39

Stanley Pain: Jun 16, 2001; by Fluffdaddy

Triskelli posted:

the car was trying to turn around when the tank round hit it, holy gently caress

They were Hamas terrorists so obviously they should have been shot point blank by a tank right? Or something something human shields. /s in case it's not obvious.

Ole' Benny Boy looking at the USA for inspiration.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1719080500818792660

Hilary Clinton being ghoulish just in time for Halloween.

https://twitter.com/tizzywoman/status/1719098251494785407

They really do not see the Palestinian as humans. At all.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 22:51

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

kinda feel like the US being silent on a ceasefire wouldn't cause Netanyahu to go "oh well then yeah I'll do it", isn't the whole problem here that the US is unable or unwillingness to restrain Israel's agency? The US needs to lean on them but isn't in charge of the situation

Looks like an Israeli vehicle incursion into Jenin: https://www.timesofisrael.com/?post_type=liveblog_entry&p=3138831

# ? Oct 30, 2023 22:58

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

In the New Yorker, The Hamas Propaganda War. The New Yorker has so far been pretty good at finding angles others aren't covering, and this is a strong example.

quote:

As Hamas fighters rampaged through Israeli villages outside Gaza on the morning of October 7th, killing roughly fourteen hundred people, some paused to take videos of themselves with Jewish children at Kibbutz Holit. In one piece of footage, a fighter in an Adidas T-shirt vigorously pats the back of a crying baby who is pressed against his shoulder�the same shoulder carrying his Kalashnikov. Another fighter, wearing a camouflage uniform, bandages the foot of an Israeli boy of toddler age, then puts the boy on his lap while jerking the crying baby back and forth in a stroller. A camera zooms in on the confused face of the boy as an unseen fighter, speaking broken English, instructs him to repeat the Arabic word meaning �in the name of God.� �Say bismillah,� the fighter says. The boy complies, in a soft Hebrew accent.

Hamas released the bismillah video on a Telegram channel six days after the attack. At a moment when the Western news media, and some major Arab outlets, were full of reports about the many civilians who were slaughtered, and Israeli officials were likening Hamas to isis, the footage was apparently Hamas�s rebuttal. At one point in the video, a masked fighter holds up the two children and addresses the camera: �Look at the mercy in our hearts. These kids�we didn�t kill them like you do.� (At least six children died from rocket fire on October 7th, and Israel�s Channel 12 has named at least nineteen others killed by militants.)

If Hamas meant to humanize its fighters to audiences in Israel or the West, the video was stunningly counterproductive. The group�s propagandists hid the identity of the fighters by blurring out their faces and, in most scenes, distorting their voices. The resulting faceless growls made them look and sound only more monstrous. The Kalashnikovs next to the children, the ungentle pushing of the stroller, the Jewish child goaded into Muslim prayer, the absence of the boys� parents�the whole scene was alarming. (The children turned out to be brothers: Negev, who is three, and Eshel, who is about five months old. Their mother was killed in the raid, and their father was away. Hamas brought the children into Gaza, but released them almost immediately.)

[...]

Yet to Palestinians and other Arab viewers�a very different audience, and one that is more important to Hamas�the awkward bismillah video served its purpose. It was posted to Al Jazeera�s Facebook page for Egypt, and has been viewed more than 1.4 million times. Nearly seventy-five thousand viewers have liked it, and nearly three thousand have left comments, many of them admiring. One commenter praised �the morals of the fighters of the Islamic resistance.�Three days later, another surreal video appeared, this one from an Israeli hostage who identifies herself as a twenty-one-year-old named Mia Shem. In the footage, her dazed eyes seemingly dart to read cue cards as she delivers a statement about the medical care that Hamas has provided for a serious wound to her arm. �They are taking care of me and giving me medicines, everything is fine,� she says flatly, avoiding the subject of who caused her injury in the first place. Since then, Hamas has released videos showing a few handovers of released hostages�including one in which an elderly Jewish Israeli bids �shalom� to her Palestinian captor.

However unpersuasive or ham-fisted such propaganda might seem in the West, Ghaith al-Omari�a former adviser to the Western-backed Palestinian Authority and a longtime opponent of Hamas�told us that such videos had convinced many Arabs that the group�s fighters, unlike isis, �are humane and respect Islamic laws of war.� He added, �It has resonated throughout the Arab world. This is now the line you see not only in Hamas media but in most Arab media, in Jordan, Egypt, and North Africa. The dominant narrative has become the narrative of Hamas.�

Hamas began shaping that narrative moments after its fighters streamed through the breached barriers surrounding Gaza. As the assault unfolded, a split screen on Hamas�s Al-Aqsa TV network juxtaposed footage of burning cars in Israeli towns with a video of a cluster of young Israeli men whose arms are tied behind their backs. A news anchor, addressing Palestinians everywhere, declared, �This picture is your picture, this might is your might, this flood is your flood, and this blessed action is for all of you!�

A review of Hamas�s propaganda on October 7th makes clear that a major objective of the group�s assault was to spark a broader uprising among the Palestinians of the West Bank. After the news anchor delivered the �blessed action� soliloquy, the network cut to a recorded message from Saleh al-Arouri, the bellicose deputy chief of Hamas�s political bureau, who explicitly urged Palestinians to rise up against both the Israeli settlers in the West Bank and the soldiers protecting them. The Israeli military �won�t be able to attend to confrontations on other fronts,� Arouri said. �After today, no one can hold back his rifle, bullet, pistol, knife, car, or Molotov cocktail.� Similar calls for an uprising in the West Bank were made in statements released during the attack by the Hamas military commander Mohammed al-Deif and by the masked Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida. The statements were broadcast repeatedly on Al-Aqsa TV and on Al Jazeera.

Observers on all sides of the conflict agree that Israel�s launch of a brutal air campaign against Gaza has rallied sympathy for the Strip�s beleaguered residents and buttressed Hamas�s story of heroic resistance. Talal Okal, a columnist in Gaza for the Ramallah-based newspaper Al-Ayyam, said of the media war, �Honestly and objectively, Israel defeated itself.�

But Al Jazeera, owned by the rulers of Qatar, has done the most to disseminate images of the devastation caused by the air strikes. The network, which has more cameras in Gaza than any other news outlet, has repeatedly broadcast footage of bodies trapped in rubble and of anguished parents clutching children wrapped in shrouds. The network�s anchors and reporters have hewn closely to Hamas�s preferred vocabulary for the conflict, speaking about �resistance fighters� battling against an �occupation army.� One of Al Jazeera�s most prominent journalists, Majed Abdulhadi, celebrated Hamas�s attack as it happened by reciting a kind of prose poem: after rhapsodizing at length about the astonished surprise of an Israeli soldier who was captured in his tank, Abdulhadi concluded that, �in one fell swoop,� the assault had �wiped away dark layers of despair.� The video clip is still circulating on Arab social media, where it has been viewed by hundreds of thousands of people.

[...]

The other pan-Arab networks�Al Arabiya, which is controlled by the rulers of Saudi Arabia, and Sky News Arabia, which is controlled by the rulers of the United Arab Emirates�initially appeared to resist Hamas�s story line. The Saudis and the Emiratis loathe Hamas and its Islamist allies. The U.A.E. formalized diplomatic ties with Israel in 2020; Saudi Arabia has signalled that it expects to do the same. Al Arabiya and Sky News Arabia both started off broadcasting critical reports about what they called the Hamas attack. On October 8th, the Sky News Arabia journalist Nadim Koteich appeared to justify Israeli retaliation by comparing Hamas�s slaughter to Al Qaeda�s attack on the United States on September 11, 2001. The Hamas assault, Koteich said, was �a premeditated coup against the Arab-Israeli peace plan.�

But as the Gaza death toll has climbed, and as Arab opinion has swung toward Hamas, the networks have seemingly capitulated to the feelings of their viewers. Putting aside �the Hamas attack,� newscasters now increasingly refer to the Israeli �war on Gaza.� And the networks have joined Al Jazeera in carrying extensive footage of suffering and carnage in Gaza. �Residents of a neighborhood in Gaza, most of them women and children, lying under the rubble,� an Al Arabiya headline declared, on October 26th. At the same moment, a chyron repeated a report, by the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry, saying that in the preceding hours another four hundred and eighty-one Palestinians had been killed by Israeli air strikes.

When referring to dead Palestinians, both networks still appear to favor the relatively neutral term �victims.� But at one point Ahmad Harb, an Al Arabiya reporter in the Gazan city of Khan Younis, briefly spoke of eleven casualties as �martyrs��the term that Palestinian groups invariably use to describe those killed in the conflict. Harb, apparently being interrupted by a producer speaking into his earpiece, quickly corrected himself, reverting to �victims.� On October 24th, the clip of his gaffe went viral on Arab social media, where it was portrayed as a glimpse of the effort by the network�s overseers to check the sympathies of their journalists in the field.

Israel�s military dominance grows more evident by the day; according to officials of the Gaza Health Ministry, Israeli forces have killed more than eight thousand people. Yet Israeli, Palestinian, and Western analysts all told us, emphatically, that in the Middle East the winner of the propaganda war is Hamas.

Ghassan Khatib, a political scientist at Birzeit University, in the West Bank, and a former official in the Palestinian Authority, told us that he plans to release poll results showing a jump in support for Hamas among West Bank Palestinians. �Hamas is getting more popular because it is perceived to be standing up to the oppressive Israeli occupation, and because of the brutal retaliation by Israel,� he said. Americans and Israelis, he added, sometimes assume that the current war began on October 7th. But Arabs, and especially Palestinians, had been paying closer attention in the preceding days and decades. Khatib told us that this audience sees the Hamas attack as retribution for decades of �piecemeal repression,� including the expansion of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the increase in settler violence against Palestinians. He noted, �People here accept a message that what Hamas did was a response to something that Israel has been doing every day for years and years.�

[...]

For Israel, the growing embrace by Palestinians and other Arabs of Hamas�s self-portrayal�of outgunned resistance fighters revolting against an unjust occupation�compounds the difficulty of finding any path forward. Israeli leaders have vowed to �destroy� Hamas, but have declined to elaborate on what that means in practice. And how could Israel�s goal be achieved when the idea of Hamas is gaining more support each day of the war?

Shibley Telhami, a political scientist at the University of Maryland who studies Arab public opinion, said that Israeli and American talk of destroying Hamas was playing into the group�s hands. Telhami told us, �When people in the Arab world hear �destroy Hamas,� they think, �destroy Gaza.� � Telhami argued that unflinching American support for Israel�s retribution had now firmly tied Washington to the losing side of the propaganda war, adding, �In the Middle East and across the Global South, Joe Biden has become the same as the George W. Bush of the Iraq War. And, right now, there is no way around it.� ♦

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:02

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

Discendo Vox posted:

In the New Yorker, The Hamas Propaganda War. The New Yorker has so far been pretty good at finding angles others aren't covering, and this is a strong example.

do you have any highlights or specific ideas you wanted to pick out of this wall of text?

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:05

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:07

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

punishedkissinger posted:

do you have any highlights or specific ideas you wanted to pick out of this wall of text?

No. It's one short article. Read.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:17

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

punishedkissinger posted:

really disappointed to find out David Simon is a hardcore zionist/war crimes apologist. there is no such thing as a left wing Zionist huh

https://twitter.com/AoDespair/status/1719103130183278772

For good or for ill, leftism has never been terribly consistent about the morality of war crimes any more than most ideologies. For example, there was always the range between people adamantly against any harm to civilians during war/occupation saying that plenty of Western/Soviet commanders should have been hangs at Nuemberg, and those who insisted that the Red Army was mad enough that you can't really hold anything they did against them.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:18

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

punishedkissinger posted:

really disappointed to find out David Simon is a hardcore zionist/war crimes apologist. there is no such thing as a left wing Zionist huh

https://twitter.com/AoDespair/status/1719103130183278772

Being left wing is not a vaccine against prejudice and biases, and I don't think employing 'no true Scotsman' is a good idea. He simply has at least one truly terrible personal stance, just like many other people of all political stripes.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:19

E2M2: Mar 2, 2007; Ain't No Thang.

Dog I can't get over how an Israeli tank fired on a civilian car while it was turning away and this isn't like headline news everywhere

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:19

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:26

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

E2M2 posted:

Dog I can't get over how an Israeli tank fired on a civilian car while it was turning away and this isn't like headline news everywhere

Already saw a vid with the title "Did an IDF tank stop a VBIED?" so there's the spin already. Nevermind the fact the car had completed a 3 point turn to drive away from the tank right before it was shot.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:26

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

mannerup posted:

oh you should read the NBC reporting of it

We don't KNOW it wasn't a Hamas tank

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:27

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Discendo Vox posted:

In the New Yorker, The Hamas Propaganda War. The New Yorker has so far been pretty good at finding angles others aren't covering, and this is a strong example.

While I agree that it's accurate, Israel and the IDF are making propaganda extremely easy for them by constantly bombing civilian targets. There are myriad ways for the IDF to have responded to the 10/7 attack, but as expected they responded the way that they typically do with Hamas actions in Gaza- they just drop a lot of bombs. It's just that this time they dropped an absolute shitload of bombs and have barely stopped, and it's killing lots and lots of literal children.

No matter what happens here, I think Israel comes out the worse. The 'success' here is that they kill some Hamas fighters but not all of them, and just get tired and go home. A failure would be increasing global political isolation, plus a quagmire in Gaza as the IDF gets bogged down in street by street fighting. Hamas really didn't have that much to lose in the current political situation that existed prior to 10/7, and they are not going to cease to exist going forward, no matter what Israel does.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:29

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

There are just so many different sides operating Israeli tanks in that area that it is impossible to say who the tank belonged to

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:30

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

E2M2 posted:

Dog I can't get over how an Israeli tank fired on a civilian car while it was turning away and this isn't like headline news everywhere

Yeah that�s crazy. I feel like at this point there could even be videos of IDF soldiers laughing about raping and murdering Palestinians and it wouldn�t even get a reaction.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:32

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

There was a Hamas headquarters in the trunk. They use people as human shields.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:33

pumpinglemma: Apr 28, 2009; DD: Fondly regard abomination.

Actually, I think you�ll find that Hamas operatives stole the tank from IDF forces and accidentally shot the car while trying to aim for an Israeli orphanage.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:34

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# ? May 25, 2024 16:57

Nail Rat: Dec 29, 2000; You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!

There is nothing they can do now, any complaints will just be "well what can we do, we gotta get rid of hamas, look what they did on oct 7."

You see Hillary and Joe and John Kirby tripling down here that a cease fire would help nobody but Hamas.

History will probably judge the way this was managed poorly, but it'll be a little too late.

quote:

I feel like at this point there could even be videos of IDF soldiers laughing about raping and murdering Palestinians and it wouldn�t even get a reaction.

Dude, there could be videos of them doing those things and it'd be blamed on Hamas.

# ? Oct 30, 2023 23:34

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