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mannerup posted:oh you should read the NBC reporting of it But did the family condemned Hamas and apologized for October 7th before they died? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 30, 2023 23:38
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 23:40
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Stanley Pain posted:
Yea, basically. I don't like it either, but regardless if the attack was justifiable or not, Hamas set into motion an inevitable series of events that includes another pointless war that will killed thousands of innocents. And the Palestinians will suffer for it.
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Oct 30, 2023 23:42
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Discendo Vox posted:In the New Yorker, The Hamas Propaganda War. The New Yorker has so far been pretty good at finding angles others aren't covering, and this is a strong example. I don't know, it seems like an extremely common and heavily overdone angle to me. quote:At one point in the video, a masked fighter holds up the two children and addresses the camera: “Look at the mercy in our hearts. These kids—we didn’t kill them like you do.” (At least six children died from rocket fire on October 7th, and Israel’s Channel 12 has named at least nineteen others killed by militants.) For an article that claims to be dissecting Hamas' narratives, it's certainly got quite the narrative of its own. As the authors tell it, talking about the occupation becomes "Hamas' preferred vocabulary", stories about death and destruction become "Hamas's story line", and any attempt to humanize the "barbarian terrorists" has to be paired with a reminder that they've killed children (although when the article later mentions dead Palestinian children, it isn't nearly as concerned about reminding us just who was responsible for those deaths). They didn't ask any Hamas members or even Gazans for comment, but they made sure to get a quote from a retired IDF military intelligence official who specialized in propaganda warfare against Palestinians, and they treated him as an expert and presented his quote about "barbarian terrorists" with "arrogance toward the West" completely uncritically. Rather than a piece about propaganda, it's a piece that is propaganda. Destroyed buildings, crowds of injured people, distraught parents crying over their kids' corpses...the writers seek to present these not as tragedies or atrocities, but as deadly barrages in Hamas' propaganda offensive, and then they assure us at length that only a foolish and stupid Westerner would be so silly as to fall for it. It's been the international consensus for decades that Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza, but in this article it's presented as nothing more than Hamas' opinion. It's a reminder that although we must be careful about propaganda, accusations of propaganda can themselves be used as propaganda. This tactic can be used to dilute verifiable facts into mere claims and opinions, present good deeds as selfish schemes, and treat victims as attackers - as suicide bombers on the frontlines of a propaganda war. Hamas aren't the only ones engaging in propaganda, after all! Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 23:47
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quote:Michael Milshtein, a retired Israeli intelligence official who specializes in analyzing Palestinian media, told us that the bismillah video “demonstrates Hamas’s arrogance toward the West—that they think all Westerners are stupid, that, if they show images of these barbarian terrorists holding babies and hugging them, people in the West will say, ‘Oh, they are so sweet. We were wrong about them!’ It’s ridiculous.” lol that's loving rich.
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Oct 30, 2023 23:51
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That entire article is just The Party demanding that you not trust the evidence of your eyes, genuinely incredible how thoroughly satire has been killed.
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Oct 30, 2023 23:53
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daslog posted:Yea, basically. I don't like it either, but regardless if the attack was justifiable or not, Hamas set into motion an inevitable series of events that includes another pointless war that will killed thousands of innocents. And the Palestinians will suffer for it. So Hamas has agency to make their own decisions, but Israel, the United States, and the west at large have no choice? It’s all “inevitable,” as opposed to specific policy decisions that are affirmatively being made? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/us/politics/israel-hamas-cease-fire.html quote:Mr. Kirby added, “A cease-fire, right now, really only benefits Hamas.” What I see is Israel and the west affirmatively making the decision to engage in mass slaughter, including the bombing of residences, hospitals, aid workers, bakeries, and general infrastructure in service of a goal of ethnic cleansing. Which fits within the longer term ethnic cleansing protect, which has moved Palestinians into smaller and smaller territories, taken away more and more freedoms, serviced by the continual racist dehumanization of Palestinian people. I agree Hamas is an actor here, but they are not the sole actor. Israel and the west are choosing to accelerate the long term project of ethnically cleansing the Palestinians outside of Israel’s lines and subjugating those within to an ever increasingly brutal terror state of limited rights.
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Oct 30, 2023 23:54
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Discendo Vox posted:In the New Yorker, The Hamas Propaganda War. The New Yorker has so far been pretty good at finding angles others aren't covering, and this is a strong example. I wonder if Hamas really went all in on that idea of inspiring a massive uprising, attracting volunteers from other countries to join the fight, and achieving a military victory. To me, from watching snippets of interviews with various Hamas politicians, it looks like there is no agreement on whether the attack was supposed to be (or be presented as) just another incursion, albeit on a larger than usual scale, or step one of some bigger and short-term plan.
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Oct 30, 2023 23:54
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 23:57
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daslog posted:Yea, basically. I don't like it either, but regardless if the attack was justifiable or not, Hamas set into motion an inevitable series of events that includes another pointless war that will killed thousands of innocents. And the Palestinians will suffer for it. And what Israel is doing right now is going to turn a large portion of 1.8 billion Muslims who didn't wish for their destruction, into Muslims that *do*.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:02
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 00:09
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Paladinus posted:I wonder if Hamas really went all in on that idea of inspiring a massive uprising, attracting volunteers from other countries to join the fight, and achieving a military victory. To me, from watching snippets of interviews with various Hamas politicians, it looks like there is no agreement on whether the attack was supposed to be (or be presented as) just another incursion, albeit on a larger than usual scale, or step one of some bigger and short-term plan. It's very difficult to tell because there's a pretty deep separation between the political figures who are doing direct English language media work for Hamas and the military people who were involved in the operation. I posted another New Yorker article a few days back with such an interview, where the interviewee basically acknowledged that he had no information about any of the specifics or goals of the attack, including when it would happen. At least some Hamas "political leaders" being quoted are basically running flak; they're saying whatever they think is appealing to their current audience without further up-chain coordination or information. Main Paineframe posted:I don't know, it seems like an extremely common and heavily overdone angle to me. You've not actually provided any other examples of this angle you're referring to as "extremely common and heavily overdone." Main Paineframe posted:For an article that claims to be dissecting Hamas' narratives, it's certainly got quite the narrative of its own. As the authors tell it, talking about the occupation becomes "Hamas' preferred vocabulary", stories about death and destruction become "Hamas's story line", Your presentation of the article's statements is factually inaccurate on multiple levels. The use of the terms “resistance fighters” and “occupation army.” are in fact weighted language preferred by Hamas in their propaganda and as part of their framing. A clear indication of this is, as the article documents as part of its thesis, the shift to use of this language in other regional state media coverage over time and discusses the why and how of those shifts. You seem to have missed the fact that the article is making the same point as FlamingLiberal above, that Israel's response has facilitated this propaganda approach by encouraging regional states to share in it. quote:and any attempt to humanize the "barbarian terrorists" has to be paired with a reminder that they've killed children (although when the article later mentions dead Palestinian children, it isn't nearly as concerned about reminding us just who was responsible for those deaths). The paired comments are the normal and specific act of contextualization that's considered appropriate to prevent re-mediating propaganda when reporting on it, similar to a corrective parenthetical used quoting Trump insisting he won the election. Main Paineframe posted:They didn't ask any Hamas members or even Gazans for comment, but they made sure to get a quote from a retired IDF military intelligence official who specialized in propaganda warfare against Palestinians, and they treated him as an expert and presented his quote about "barbarian terrorists" with "arrogance toward the West" completely uncritically. The article quotes and cites multiple Hamas outlets and other Palestinians. What is your basis for saying Michael Milshtein "specialized in propaganda warfare against Palestinians"? Anyways, the immediately following paragraph is describing why he is wrong. Him being wrong about the audience and the part of the message that matters is the focus of the article. Main Paineframe posted:Rather than a piece about propaganda, it's a piece that is propaganda. Destroyed buildings, crowds of injured people, distraught parents crying over their kids' corpses...the writers seek to present these not as tragedies or atrocities, but as deadly barrages in Hamas' propaganda offensive, and then they assure us at length that only a foolish and stupid Westerner would be so silly as to fall for it. They specifically do not. The referenced material which the article states is unlikely to be credible to Western or Israeli audiences is the propaganda footage from Hamas of hostage treatment, not the subsequent destruction of Gaza and civilian suffering. Main Paineframe posted:It's been the international consensus for decades that Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza, but in this article it's presented as nothing more than Hamas' opinion. The notion that this is international consensus is at least controversial; the notion that it is part of Hamas's propaganda framing of the conflict (diverting attention away from the events of the 7th) is not. Main Paineframe posted:It's a reminder that although we must be careful about propaganda, accusations of propaganda can themselves be used as propaganda. This tactic can be used to dilute verifiable facts into mere claims and opinions, present good deeds as selfish schemes, and treat victims as attackers - as suicide bombers on the frontlines of a propaganda war. Hamas aren't the only ones engaging in propaganda, after all! Following repeatedly misrepresenting the article to the point of inverting its statements, you're now engaging in whataboutism about the use of propaganda. Your non sequitur suicide bomber metaphor notwithstanding, this is an accurate coverage of the ways that Hamas's propaganda messages initially and subsequently framing the October 7 attack and resulting reprisals is effective in its primary Arabic target audiences, in part because it is more closely tailored to them, in part because it is being taken up by other regional state media, and in large part because Israel's atrocities in the region facilitate that frame. I'm not aware of the "extremely common and overdone" coverage of this angle. Feel free to demonstrate. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 00:16
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mannerup posted:Hamas is bad (said this enough in this thread where I am even sick of saying it), but people who are pushing against a ceasefire are allowing the conditions for further civilian deaths which is very bad. It's the dumbest rhetorical device to go "if you have a ceasefire, the terrorists win" which appears to be the consensus messaging between US/Israel. the biggest dumbass argument i keep seeing on this is "it will give Hamas time to prepare" and it's like, they clearly showed up prepared almost a month ago ffs.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:18
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daslog posted:Yea, basically. I don't like it either, but regardless if the attack was justifiable or not, Hamas set into motion an inevitable series of events that includes another pointless war that will killed thousands of innocents. And the Palestinians will suffer for it. I feel like this absolves Israel of any responsibility while making sure such is hung on Hamas. If Israel's reaction was truly inevitable, then atrocities like Black Saturday certainly were too.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:21
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Best Friends posted:So Hamas has agency to make their own decisions, but Israel, the United States, and the west at large have no choice? It’s all “inevitable,” as opposed to specific policy decisions that are affirmatively being made? The US and Israel do have a choice and that choice was made long ago. I don't like the why, but I can understand that under no circumstances can Israel look weak. Hamas and everyone else knew that, and here are now with all the bad things going on you listed above. Eventually, the carnage will get so horrific that Israel will be forced to pull back under pressure from the USA. Then the endless cycle of religious violence will start up again. Nail Rat posted:And what Israel is doing right now is going to turn a large portion of 1.8 billion Muslims who didn't wish for their destruction, into Muslims that *do*. I think it will and Hamas will have achieve their main short term goal. It's a tragedy all around that never ends.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:24
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daslog posted:The US and Israel do have a choice and that choice was made long ago. I don't like the why, but I can understand that under no circumstances can Israel look weak. Hamas and everyone else knew that, and here are now with all the bad things going on you listed above. Eventually, the carnage will get so horrific that Israel will be forced to pull back under pressure from the USA. Then the endless cycle of religious violence will start up again. This isn't a cycle of religious violence, this is another spate of violence between a colonizer and the people they are colonizing. Gravity is inevitable, dropping bombs on civilians is a deliberate choice - one that it would be in Israel's best long term prospects to stop choosing. Morally at the least.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:26
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 00:30
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mannerup posted:this is nothing against your post (im glad you raised this point actually), but I hate that rhetoric that seems far too common in International Relations scholarly circles among realists where the Middle East is some barbaric hellscape where if you show even the slightest amount of weakness, you will get invaded. People don't apply that same kind of scrutiny to the Americas, Europe or East Asia but it is somehow a unique quality to the MENA area of the world. Also, Israel has nukes.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:36
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm not aware of the "extremely common and overdone" coverage of this angle. Feel free to demonstrate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_7S18Ga88A I reject the specificity of pinning it down to this specific conflict because the fact that ever increasing violence by the powerful against the oppressed makes it easy to recruit and garner sympathy for extremist groups that would fight said powers is such a trite non-observation that there are multiple entire genres of music born from it. The article and it's incredibly inflammatory language reeks of an attempt to tar any coverage of the astonishing violence of the idf directly to hamas propaganda, to make those who would express their horror at those despicable acts as propagandists themselves. Maybe you should, as the song suggests, try caring or wondering why instead of trying to find just the right paper to spoon feed you your opinions. Hell just listen to it if you haven't it does a far better job explaining the concept while also being naked propaganda for a long gone pair of organizations that disarmed because the message finally got through for once.
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Oct 31, 2023 00:50
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According to the UN 70% of the casualties thus far are women and children. The Guardian posted:Nearly 70% of those reported killed in Gaza are children and women, says UNRWA chief Nobody can credibly call this a campaign against Hamas and anyone describing this as 'inevitable' is either the worst sort of 'realist' or should be amongst the loudest voices against the Israeli state.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:03
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 01:04
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Brucolac posted:According to the UN 70% of the casualties thus far are women and children. Well, I nominate myself as the worst sort of realist because my reaction when I heard the news of the attack was "that's just awful" and my second thought was "Israel is going to turn Gaza to rubble and no one is going to stop them." As an added bonus, I've never believed that a country be both a democracy and an ethic / religious state.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:08
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mannerup posted:https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1719121224788254840?s=20 Absolutely psychotic country. Israel is a terrorist state at this point with the untold murder of thousands and this victim star poo poo is absolutely appalling. Anyone defending this is more evil than Hamas’ worst enemies could reasonably claim it is.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:14
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Erdan began his political activity in opposition to the Oslo Accords
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Oct 31, 2023 01:15
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mannerup posted:https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1719121224788254840?s=20 I was looking for a decent link to provide for this...yeah. It's....not having the response they probably desired, at least on social media. Maybe it works better on the 50+ crowd. It would have been distasteful (in my opinion, at least) after the Oct 7th attack, but you could at least presume good-faith. This is so transparently about Israel's reputation collapsing. Groovelord Neato posted:Erdan began his political activity in opposition to the Oslo Accords It's still mind-boggling that there was opposition to Oslo (with regards to not going far enough), considering how thoroughly it atomized Palestine. I'm not sure how someone can look at Area C and go "not good enough." Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 01:17
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mannerup posted:https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1719121224788254840?s=20 It's an Eli Valley cartoon in real life.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:28
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The yellow star stunt is extremely appalling and offensive. Please tell me someone at the UN commented on it and called out Israel for being massive losers.
I said come in! fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 01:33
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Discendo Vox posted:You've not actually provided any other examples of this angle you're referring to as "extremely common and heavily overdone." "Resistance fighters" and "occupation army" are the terms preferred by Hamas, but that doesn't necessarily make them "weighted language". The IDF is an occupation army, and Hamas are fighting a resistance against said occupation. It's truth, not rhetoric. I didn't miss the article's thesis about the shift in language. I ignored it because, to be frank, it's hard for me to contain the sheer level of contempt I have for the writers' attempt to explain why journalists and the international community made more noise about civilian deaths as the civilian death toll rose. To me, it falls into the same category as the rest of the article: weighted nonsense designed to reframe the truth as propaganda so that Western readers can have a reason to comfortably ignore it. Just look at this poo poo: quote:But as the Gaza death toll has climbed, and as Arab opinion has swung toward Hamas, the networks have seemingly capitulated to the feelings of their viewers. Putting aside “the Hamas attack,” newscasters now increasingly refer to the Israeli “war on Gaza.” And the networks have joined Al Jazeera in carrying extensive footage of suffering and carnage in Gaza. “Residents of a neighborhood in Gaza, most of them women and children, lying under the rubble,” an Al Arabiya headline declared, on October 26th. At the same moment, a chyron repeated a report, by the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry, saying that in the preceding hours another four hundred and eighty-one Palestinians had been killed by Israeli air strikes. Yes, journalists and Arab leaders preferred to talk about "the Hamas attack" and "casualties on both sides" on October 11 when the Israeli and Palestinian death counts were probably around even, and preferred to talk more about the "war on Gaza" and "human cost of Israeli air strikes" on October 24-26 when the Palestinian death toll was probably 5-6 times Israel's after more than two straight weeks of intensive bombing. By saying that the tone of the rhetoric changed because Arab opinions changed, they implicitly dismiss the idea that the rhetoric changed because the actual situation changed. To hear them tell it, the Arab media and governments shifted their tone toward Israeli bombing and Gazan casualties simply due to political pressure - and not because of a weeks-long bombing campaign that's now racked up 8,000 dead Palestinians and counting. It casts skepticism on the motives and truthfulness of Arab leaders and journalists alike, while at the same time minimizing the amount of actual Israeli escalation on the ground, and also seeds the idea that the tone of the coverage is influenced more by Hamas propaganda than by Israeli actions. The article cites past quotes from Hamas members, but it only calls up three people to get their perspectives directly: a former IDF intelligence officer, a former PA politician in the West Bank, and a former Abbas advisor. Even though the article is about Hamas, it doesn't actually talk to anyone from Hamas. In fact the only quotes from any Hamas member that it presents are a description of a recorded video that Hamas played to announce its success on Oct 7th and brief remarks from its description of the hostage videos at the very start of the article. Of course, the fact that I asked about quotes from Hamas and you responded by saying that it had quotes from "multiple Hamas outlets and other Palestinians". As for Michael Milshtein, he's an ex-military intelligence member who claims to specialize in "analyzing Palestinian media" and is busily calling up every outlet that'll listen to give them quotes defending Israel and attacking Hamas. Of course, "analyzing Palestinian media" is a familiar shorthand to anyone who's followed this conflict for very long, as "analyzing Palestinian media" has long been a major prong of Israel's anti-Palestinian propaganda tactics, with entire organizations dedicated to combing Palestinian or Arab media for anything that could be used to cast Palestinians in a bad light, and some of these organizations have prominent links to former members of Israeli military intelligence. Neither you nor the article even once mentions Israeli attempts to frame events, even though by presenting the military occupation as "Hamas's propaganda framing of the conflict", you are in fact falling directly into Israeli framing by treating the unambiguous factual truth as though it's just one side of the story. The article purports to explain propaganda, but in fact the article itself is propaganda. Increasing coverage of a rapidly growing death toll is treated as the result of Hamas propaganda shifting the narrative, as if a rapidly growing death toll isn't newsworthy in itself. After three weeks of Israeli bombing of Gaza, the reduction of coverage of attacks that happened over three weeks ago is treated as something the news was pressured into by the shifting sentiments of the Arab population. It's an attempt to prime readers to be less receptive to negative coverage of Israel's violence by presenting that negative coverage as politically-motivated propaganda. And the Western media is absolutely overrun with takes along those lines, which is why I said this article is little more than a particularly sophisticated take on an "extremely common and overdone" angle. Even ones with this level of sophistication aren't that unusual - there's usually a handful of articles where people with advanced degrees and expert titles repackage the standard narrative into something that'll easily hook highly-educated internet debater types.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:40
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Jesus loving christ. I don't even have words to describe how loving disgusting it is.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:45
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Neurolimal posted:It's still mind-boggling that there was opposition to Oslo (with regards to not going far enough), considering how thoroughly it atomized Palestine. I'm not sure how someone can look at Area C and go "not good enough." That's because Israel actually wants genocide. They do not want peace at all.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:54
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mannerup posted:https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1719121224788254840?s=20 The state of Israel has maimed or killed holocaust survivors while they participated in actions or protests to help Gaza and the Palestinian people against Israel’s genocidal policies so this is in particularly bad taste beyond just the face value of it
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Oct 31, 2023 01:58
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Is it probably off the table that anyone at all comes to Palestines rescue? The U.S. is going to destroy anyone who tries?
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Oct 31, 2023 02:00
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I said come in! posted:Is it probably off the table that anyone at all comes to Palestines rescue? The U.S. is going to destroy anyone who tries? Who would come to their rescue anyway? I don't think anyone in the region cares enough to get directly involved. It's not like Israel is a particularly soft target even if the US stayed completely out of it
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Oct 31, 2023 02:03
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Israel has nuclear weapons too which complicates everything.
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Oct 31, 2023 02:04
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mannerup posted:Israel can go gently caress itself with this performative bullshit. 80 years later and Nazis are still putting stars on jews.
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Oct 31, 2023 02:10
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Neurolimal posted:It's still mind-boggling that there was opposition to Oslo (with regards to not going far enough), considering how thoroughly it atomized Palestine. I'm not sure how someone can look at Area C and go "not good enough." Right that's why I quoted it - you have to be a psycho of the highest order to have been against Oslo on the Israeli side. And he got what he wanted this is the outcome of not upholding the minimal concessions of Oslo. The Holocaust minimization coming from Israeli officials and defenders has really disgusted me especially when they're the one keeping millions in a ghetto. Bel Shazar posted:80 years later and Nazis are still putting stars on jews.
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Oct 31, 2023 02:11
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Israel refusing to abide by a deal that was disproportionately in their favor & by all metrics would classify as Israel "winning" the conflict is very reminiscent of the USA refusing Taliban's surrender conditions. Victory-drunk myopia, hopefully it ultimately backfires in the same way.
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Oct 31, 2023 02:22
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Discendo Vox posted:The use of the terms “resistance fighters” and “occupation army.” are in fact weighted language preferred by Hamas in their propaganda and as part of their framing. A clear indication of this is, as the article documents as part of its thesis, the shift to use of this language in other regional state media coverage over time and discusses the why and how of those shifts. You seem to have missed the fact that the article is making the same point as FlamingLiberal above, that Israel's response has facilitated this propaganda approach by encouraging regional states to share in it. How would you discuss what is happening without any weighting? What is the an unweighted description, in your view, of Israeli soldiers in Gaza? hooman fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 02:28
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hooman posted:How would you discuss what is happening without any weighting? What is the an unweighted description, in your view, of Israeli soldiers in Gaza? Israeli soldiers in Gaza.
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Oct 31, 2023 02:50
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I said come in! posted:Is it probably off the table that anyone at all comes to Palestines rescue? The U.S. is going to destroy anyone who tries? No one's coming to the rescue. Protests and harsh words, sure, actual kinetic action, no. The Saudis released their half hearted statement, but essentially said that the normalization can pick right back up as soon as the war is over. Set aside that Israel is projected to have as many operational nuclear warheads as China. Jordan is requesting the US install air defense batteries in their territory......to protect them from Iranian proxies. Even though Putin released some truly unhinged speech about how Russia is actually the Palestine in their war in Ukraine they're not going to do anything. No one in the Arab world is going to join up with Hezbollah since even the Arab league labels them as a terror organization, again Iran. Iran has made a bunch of noise about how if the war doesn't end they're going to.....attack a bunch of US assets. Everyone who isn't Lebanon or Syria in that region I think is a executive level member of the US MIC warehouse store. After watching that Hamas spox's interview where the interviewer ask with all the time they spend building tunnels why don't they build bomb shelters and he responds that it's the UN's job to keep the Palestinians safe, not Hamas's, adding to the NY times article yesterday about how they're sitting on tons of fuel and supplies, I don't think the military side really cares all that much about the people because they'd rather get their fight on with the IDF. Israel clearly listens to the US since the delay in the ground invasion was due to requests from Biden to wait until we could have assets in place. Sadly, the United States is probably the only other nation that has the actual influence to put a stop to this. The free world so to speak is pretty bad about stopping genocide all together. When was the last time anyone really stepped in (not connected to some other war). Bosnia?
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Oct 31, 2023 02:58
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