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to put Ideef casualties into perspective 300 KIA is less than what Ukraine admitted to losing on an average day during the summer
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Oct 31, 2023 16:53
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mrmcd posted:Boomers of all stripes still lust for more death. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard ever since Desert Shield my dad say "we should just bomb all of those (insert slur against Arabs)" not just Palestine, the whole drat middle east.
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Oct 31, 2023 16:58
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This is a completely pointless derail, and I have no idea why I posted it, sorry.
Stringent fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 17:03
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Verisimilidude posted:How can someone counteract the argument "civilian deaths are a necessary part of war. There were over 2 million german civilians killed in ww2, should we have called a ceasefire with the nazis?" This is not a war, it's much closer to collective punishment, and revenge. Ask this question. If Israel stopped today and withdrew from Gaza, will there be more or less dead Hamas fighters left if they instead continued the "war"? If the answer is more dead Hamas fighters, then it almost certainly would be due to a successful ground campaign. Which I think most people (weather it's morally justified or not) could understand. If the answer is no, specifically because all Israel is going to do for the next few weeks (months) is continue bombing, then it's not a war. It's just an act of disproportionate retribution. I feel like to be pro Israel right now, you have to want them to wage a ground campaign that beats Hamas and effectively annexes Gaza so it can be rebuilt for the Palestinians who survive. Anything else is just collective punishment and cycles of terror for the next conflict. The other way to be pro Israel is to want them to stop the "war" recognize Gaza is a slum in need of help (conditions that Israel is responsible for in large part) and help to make the place livable. GarudaPrime fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 17:08
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Main Paineframe posted:Most of the civilian deaths in WWII were unnecessary. Some amount of civilian deaths are always unavoidable in war, but it would be sorely mistaken to assume that the Allies were trying to avoid them. While they didn't conduct the war with the same cartoonishly evil bloodthirstiness toward civilians that the Axis did, American and British strategic bombing operations were largely oriented toward collective punishment against civilians rather than real military objectives. Unable to accomplish anything militarily useful with their big fleets of expensive strategic bombers, they turned to mass collective punishment against civilian populations instead in the vague hope that it would break the country's morale and lead to surrender. This is actually not true, even the 1945 Strategic Bombing Survey which is often cited as evidence of the strategic bombing campaigns ineffectiveness actually very clearly shows how strategic bombing was effective in reducing Germany's output; some war industries were more disrupted than others, but more recent research, for example by Adam Tooze in Wages of Destruction, believes strategic bombing was a critical aspect of the Allied war effort but often undercut by the wrong targets being selected. quote:In 1943, when the RAF began sustained bombing of the heavy industrial region of the Ruhr, it had an immediate effect and panicked the Speer administration. The internal German records from this period leave no doubt about this. But after the devastating raids on Hamburg in the last week of July 1943, the RAF switched to attacking Berlin. This was a disastrous error of military judgement. Then, in early 1944 the air weapon was concentrated on tactical and operational preparation for D-Day. From the summer of 1944, when the RAF and USAAF finally switched their full force back to Germany the effects were devastating and more or less immediate. https://adamtooze.com/2017/07/12/modern-history-world-war-ii-strategic-bombing-liberal-democratic-mode-war/ http://ww2history.com/experts/Adam_Tooze/Most_mistaken_decision_of_WW2 quote:ADAM TOOZE: Well, there’s something I’d like to talk about that we haven’t spoken about so far, which is the strategic bombing campaign. I actually think that the RAF had the German war economy by the throat by the summer of 1943. The series of attacks launched by the British from March 1943 through to the cataclysmic attack on Hamburg at the end of July has a devastating impact on the German war effort that’s been very, very largely underestimated so far. But from the inside of the Speer Ministry there’s no question that this is seen as a fundamental turning point in the war and a moment potentially of no return. They expect the German war economy to be crippled in the winter of 1943 and the reason why that doesn’t happen is that the RAF turns its attention from the west of Germany to Berlin, and makes a vain attempt to destroy Berlin. However, Berlin is an inappropriate target. It’s too large, it’s too far away and it’s at the end of the productive chain, whereas the Ruhr stands at the very beginning because it’s the centre of German coal mining, without which the heavy industrial economy of Germany grinds to a halt. edit to clarify upon rereading your post: Or rather I suppose it is correct to say they turned towards civilian targets because they thought it wasn't effective enough, but at least in hindsight the war probably would've ended in 44' if they kept attacking Germany's war economy like the Ruhr region instead of Berlin, but incorrect to say that the bombers weren't militarily useful. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 17:11
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Ask them how much of Belfast the English should have blown up with air strikes because of the IRA.
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Oct 31, 2023 17:12
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https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1719352985149472921 This is terrifying
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Oct 31, 2023 17:22
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GarudaPrime posted:The other way to be pro Israel is to want them to stop the "war" recognize Gaza is a slum in need of help (conditions that Israel is responsible for in large part) and help to make the place livable. I consider it a war in the same general category of the north american indian wars, where there was a series of surface conflicts, but the ultimate and most integral component of it was a matter of displacement and extermination
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Oct 31, 2023 17:23
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1719352985149472921 It's actually really interesting that this sort of thing is coming out. I don't think a story like this is released without top down approval.
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Oct 31, 2023 17:25
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Moving this discussion from the CanPol thread to here, regarding the question of "Are unarmed, (un, as in "not")uniformed citizens who may or may not be in the IDF due to the draft, valid targets in war?"Giggs posted:This is from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe??? While technically international, it's for Europe, not worldwide, and therefore completely meaningless in this discussion. First, again, I can't repeat this enough, what Hamas did doesn't justify what Israel did, I've never at any point said what Israel is doing is justified or legal. It applies to both sides equally because the laws of war don't discriminate between powerful and weak nations; a powerful nation is just as entitled for its soldiers to be treated humanely when captured, and for its civilian populations to be treated fairly and humanly as the smallest most oppressed microstate or enclave. Its fair of course for you to be more sympathetic to the Palestinians as they are without a doubt the underdog, the oppressed, and I'm definitely fair about the argument that insofar as our opinions as individuals go, to tolerate acts of violence that skirt the lines, like attacks on civilian administration in occupied lands like police stations, or kidnapping to make such an occupation less feasible; its unpleasant and I don't like it but I'm not going to condemn it because on some level its understandable the desperation at play by the weaker party in the conflict. Second considering Europe made up of most of the primary drafters of the various laws regarding conduct during war and the various conventions thereof I think what Europe thinks the laws are regarding civilians is pretty relevant, especially considering how the 1949 conventions were signed and are contextualized by WW2 which involved essentially every European power, and because its one the largest supranational legal bodies with at least two United Nations security council seats to three depending on how we define "Europe", but anyways. But Israel is not exempt from these laws and protections because some of its citizens are conscripts, because it isn't actually possible to know if an adult male or female between the ages of 18 and 55 is a conscript or not; between tourists, people who are discharged and no longer serving, people who weren't enlisted because of illness or injury; exempted groups due to protected legal status's, 17 year olds who aren't yet of legal age to be registered, registered for whatever Israel's version of selective service is but hasn't gotten any training yet? And so on. Its clear that states are expected to distinguish their serving military from their civilians precisely to avoid this sort of thing, and the way that distinction is nominally carried out is your armed forces are uniformed and armed vs not uniformed and armed. The big major wars that ended up with the 1949 Laws being signed universally saw conscription and pretty obviously population centers behind the front line aren't valid targets just because some of the people might be in uniform at some point, that would be collective punishment and also illegal to just wipe the entire city from existence. If your argument and position is well the rules don't PRECISELY say I can't kill people indiscriminately as long as statistically most of them might be "conscripts", I think that's clearly bypassing the clear spirit of the laws at war and their intentions in favour of a ultra literal form of legal theory I feel like you would rightly condemn in any other circumstance like how the US detains "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay or interned males of "war fighting age" in places like Iraq or Afghanistan when the clear intent of the law is they should've been treated as POWs if captured when engaged in armed hostilities and left alone if not. And no I don't think its that complicated, an armed Israeli citizen is treated as a combatant according to the laws of war, you can click the links and see that they do account for that. A private citizen engaged in hostilities doesn't have the same protections as the civilian population; they still have some protections and the laws are pretty clear that even if you make the argument that every draftee is not legally a civilian, they would still be protected from just being summarily executed when they're not engaged in hostilities. The civilians in their homes, unarmed who were killed weren't performing work of a military character. Repeatedly the emphasis in the articles of the geneva conventions seems to clearly point out that the responsibility is to do your best to make the distinction between civilian and military, and not just to level a city block or wipe out a town because one person out of place presented an excuse; that's pretty obviously not consistent with the intentions. And yes, this applies to Israel too, especially since its the more powerful party in the conflict, but as I said doesn't absolve Hamas. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 17:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's actually really interesting that this sort of thing is coming out. I don't think a story like this is released without top down approval. This is why I'm worried about Hezbollah becoming involved - we don't know what would make Israel turn to nukes (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Willo567 fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 18:06
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I always wondered how well intentioned people could see things like apartheid South Africa and Germany during WWII and think "this is good, they deserve it actually.". The events of the last month has really been an object lesson for me in the mental gymnastics the liberal brain will do to justify ethnic cleansing.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:09
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So what exactly is the official, achievable objective for a ground invasion of Gaza? How will Israel know when they have "eradicated Hamas", or whatever? Are they planning to set up a puppet government in its place, or...?
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Oct 31, 2023 18:13
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Some quick updates: https://twitter.com/AbasAslani/status/1719357219978842417?s=20 The Houthis have formally joined the war; they complimented this with a drone strike that hit Eliat without triggering any air raid sirens. The Houthis have quite a bit of experience winning against Western equipment & wanton slaughter, hopefully they escalate further. https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1719369496471769307 Unappreciative of the lack of success their incursions have had, Israel dropped six massive bombs on Jabalia without warning. Casualty figures are still climbing.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:16
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Mechafunkzilla posted:So what exactly is the official, achievable objective for a ground invasion of Gaza? How will Israel know when they have "eradicated Hamas", or whatever? Are they planning to set up a puppet government in its place, or...? no palestinians left in gaza
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Oct 31, 2023 18:16
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ZShakespeare posted:I always wondered how well intentioned people could see things like apartheid South Africa and Germany during WWII and think "this is good, they deserve it actually.". The events of the last month has really been an object lesson for me in the mental gymnastics the liberal brain will do to justify ethnic cleansing. I don't think it's even that complicated. People, all people of every political leaning, love hearing about bad people "getting what they had coming". Did the kindly librarian that lived down the road deserve to go to a concentration camp? No. But hey, wait, the State said that he was actually a bolshevik that was trying to harm people around him. Well that is okay then, dangerous people should be punished. And maybe every single Jewish person has the same thing happen to them, but patterns are for staticians. The individual knows what they see in front of him, and everyone who is currently in his field of vision is fine. Mechafunkzilla posted:So what exactly is the official, achievable objective for a ground invasion of Gaza? How will Israel know when they have "eradicated Hamas", or whatever? Are they planning to set up a puppet government in its place, or...? Essentially annexing Gaza would be the assumption. The things they are describing as short term goals would either take years to accomplish or would require just bulldozing the entire city. Setting up what is effectively a DMZ in a city is an insanely difficult proposition and would be at best martial law to the highest degree. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 18:16
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Mechafunkzilla posted:So what exactly is the official, achievable objective for a ground invasion of Gaza? How will Israel know when they have "eradicated Hamas", or whatever? Are they planning to set up a puppet government in its place, or...? removing hamas as the official governing entity of gaza is prob doable the problem is there's no way to destroy them as an underground entity or prevent hamas 2.0 from rising from the ashes and going back to square one within 5 years or so but then Israel has being in a state of forever-war with various neigbhors for the last 80 years or so and with the Palestanians for the last 50+ yrs. So I don't think Israel really expects the problem to be solved right here so much as it is just fighting another battle in a war that's gonna go on for another 50+ years.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:18
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PT6A posted:Another day, another atrocity. Since the story was published, now according to the Ministry of Health, at least 100 were killed in the bombing of a refugee camp. It is very lovely, but I'm not sure why you think it's any different from bombing the central district of Gaza City, so there is really no need for emphasis on "refugee camp". It's a built-up district of Gaza with large multi-story apartment blocks that have been there for decades, and it doesn't look meaningfully different from other parts of Gaza that are not refugee "camps". This is what it looks like:  It's not a bunch of temporary UN tent shelters. The Palestinian refugee camps are basically just poor neighborhoods, e.g. Beirut:  punishedkissinger posted:i think emphasizing that large parts of Gaza are refugee camps is reasonable because it's true. Well, OP indicates that it seemed particularly "vile," as if there is some a meaningful difference between Jabalia and Rimal. I don't really see any difference in whether one is a more horrifying target than the other. Saladman fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 18:18
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Saladman posted:It is very lovely, but I'm not sure why you think it's any different from bombing the central district of Gaza City, so there is really no need for emphasis on "refugee camp". It's a built-up district of Gaza with large multi-story apartment blocks that have been there for decades, and it doesn't look meaningfully different from other parts of Gaza that are not refugee "camps". i think emphasizing that large parts of Gaza are refugee camps is reasonable because it's true.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:23
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Saladman posted:It is very lovely, but I'm not sure why you think it's any different from bombing the central district of Gaza City, so there is really no need for emphasis on "refugee camp". It's a built-up district of Gaza with large multi-story apartment blocks that have been there for decades, and it doesn't look meaningfully different from other parts of Gaza that are not refugee "camps". They're calling it a refugee camp because it is one and residents are registered with UNRWA as refugees.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:26
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Saladman posted:It is very lovely, but I'm not sure why you think it's any different from bombing the central district of Gaza City, so there is really no need for emphasis on "refugee camp". It's a built-up district of Gaza with large multi-story apartment blocks that have been there for decades, and it doesn't look meaningfully different from other parts of Gaza that are not refugee "camps". I think bombing refugee camps is bad regardless of the form of housing there, and also it's bad to level residential areas in general.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:27
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Saladman posted:It is very lovely, but I'm not sure why you think it's any different from bombing the central district of Gaza City, so there is really no need for emphasis on "refugee camp". It's a built-up district of Gaza with large multi-story apartment blocks that have been there for decades, and it doesn't look meaningfully different from other parts of Gaza that are not refugee "camps". How is this a clarification that needed to be made and what were you trying to accomplish here, an honest question. These are districts of poor folks who have been forcibly resettled. It's a refugee camp that was indiscriminately bombed and scores of innocents murdered by Israel. Israel murdered internationally designated refugees. Why does it matter what kind of building they were in?
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Oct 31, 2023 18:31
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Typo posted:removing hamas as the official governing entity of gaza is prob doable the problem is there's no way to destroy them as an underground entity or prevent hamas 2.0 from rising from the ashes and going back to square one within 5 years or so How exactly would you remove Hamas as the official governing entity of Gaza? It all feels very much like calvinball. I thought Israel is being deliberately vague about its goals (outside of killing/displacing as many people as it can) because they know its unrealistic to expect anything concrete and its all just Bibi buying time.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:34
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Noise Complaint posted:How is this a clarification that needed to be made and what were you trying to accomplish here, an honest question. The point is the emphasis saying it is somehow more vile to bomb Jabalia than Rimal. How is it any different? In both cases, nearly all residents of both districts were born in Gaza and have lived their entire lives there. The people living in Jabalia were not forcibly resettled: their grandparents and great-grandparents were. It's been a regular city district for 60+ years.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:37
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Saladman posted:The people living in Jabalia were not forcibly resettled some of them definitely were though, not many sure, but a few.
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Oct 31, 2023 18:49
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punishedkissinger posted:some of them definitely were though, not many sure, but a few. Some of them likely quite recently when Israel bombed the other places they were living, I imagine!
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Oct 31, 2023 18:55
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Noise Complaint posted:How is this a clarification that needed to be made and what were you trying to accomplish here, an honest question. it looks like they misinterpreted the initial post's emphasis on refugee camp and are trying to clarify that it's a built up urban area and not the open, spread out fema-tent-city that most people probably have pop into their heads from the words "refugee camp", reading it as if it were implying it's not densely populated, urban residential location or something like that as far as i can tell they actually agree with you, and also with the person they're replying to, and aren't trying to minimize or justify the bombing at all FirstnameLastname fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 19:01
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I think Wolf was even taken aback by the IDF not even bothering to justify this war crime. I really do feel we could be on the verge of an actual shift in public perception here. https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487?t=Cn99SI1uHEoOWm-gxVAkow&s=19
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Oct 31, 2023 19:40
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JFC "there could be infrastructure there, there could be tunnels there we're still looking into it" Does he know or even care how loving moronic and heartless he sounds
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Oct 31, 2023 19:46
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punishedkissinger posted:I think Wolf was even taken aback by the IDF not even bothering to justify this war crime. I really do feel we could be on the verge of an actual shift in public perception here. Is wolf dressed up as the pope for Halloween or something
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Oct 31, 2023 19:47
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Nail Rat posted:JFC "there could be infrastructure there, there could be tunnels there we're still looking into it" "I mean, can you prove there weren't? The rubble of the several apartment blocks we levelled is making it really hard to tell, and there's like bodies and poo poo under it. gently caress me, right?"
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Oct 31, 2023 19:50
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https://twitter.com/GeoffreyPlitt/status/1719413366006091955 There is no shortage of idiots who essentially ask the question of why don't the Palestinians just dodge the bombs
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Oct 31, 2023 19:57
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Front page on CNN and there's no question it was Israel hitting a REFUGEE CAMP intentionally. I'd like to believe this is the moment the US is like cut it the gently caress out but I know it's not.quote:There is no shortage of idiots who essentially ask the question of why don't the Palestinians just dodge the bombs The answer is the video of the tank smoking the family trying to go south yesterday Edit: CNN changed the headline from Massive Blast to Israeli Airstrike Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Oct 31, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 19:57
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https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1719401430207930741 From what I've read, Michigan and Georgia have pretty large populations of Arab Americans Going to lose my mind if Trump beats biden because he went all in on genocide
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Oct 31, 2023 20:05
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 31, 2023 20:08
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mannerup posted:to put that number in perspective with how bad the results tanked compared to the GOP/3rd parties. Biden really need to deal with this issue because it is risking losing a voting demographic on a generational-level scale. You can't just rely on the specter of Trump to be enough for them to take the affirmative step to go out and vote instead of just sitting at home. Yeah but you have to consider that this is balanced out by all the right wing Jewish voters who.... Will continue to vote for Trump.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:17
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It would be so dark if his poll numbers dropping would be what caused the US to try and reign in Israel.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:22
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40% support for the guy who's literal first act last time around was an actual muslim ban.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:23
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It's splitting hairs, I guess, but that would be an indication that US foreign policy is at least somewhat accountable to US public opinion.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:24
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Alchenar posted:40% support for the guy who's literal first act last time around was an actual muslim ban. He probably didn't lose any, but first time Biden voters are facing the impossible choice of voting for a genocide enabler so they've moved to Not Sure.
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Oct 31, 2023 20:28
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