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Rebel Blob posted:The constant accusations of bad faith against other posters are not only tiring, but bizarrely unpunished by the mods. So is backseat modding. Are the accusations wrong? Also note that two of the 'accusations' you quoted are directed to the same poster with quite the rapsheet. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 16:31
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Kalit posted:Let me see if an analogy will help you understand. Pretend that someone made a home insurance claim and stated that their house burned down. But then when the adjuster made a visit out to the site, the house itself was fine, it was a detached shed that got burned down. Would you say that this person did or did not lie to the insurance company? Your analogy would fit if the main point of debate here was damage to the hospital rather than the mass death toll on its grounds. If you say a sinkhole opened under your house during a party and a dozen people died but aykshually they were out on the rear deck and that's what fell into the ground, calling you a liar would be a real rear end in a top hat move.
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Nov 2, 2023 16:32
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i fly airplanes posted:Again, you are arguing in completely bad faith in this regard because you're straight up saying that Hamas statements deserve benefit of the doubt while the IDF should be regarded as guilty war criminals from the first position. It's not about believing one or the other more, it's that one has a consistent case of lying in the past, and has been shown to be lying in the present, and the entirety of the bombing is within their MO (source: thousands of dead Palestinians), and they're the only group with munitions capable of killing 500 people in one blast. The other 'side' put out a sketchy statement. It's not comparable. I want to point out that I Fly Airplanes is constantly accusing people of bad faith, but he also doesn't bother to click through most sources presented to him: Neurolimal posted:It's not even an EF journalist, it's literally a short description from someone in Gaza, who had their house bombed. He brushed off an article labeled "Israel bombed my home without warning" provided as proof of Israel bombing someone'ss home without warning, because it was hosted on EI. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 16:32
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Killer robot posted:Your analogy would fit if the main point of debate here was damage to the hospital rather than the mass death toll on its grounds. If you say a sinkhole opened under your house during a party and a dozen people died but aykshually they were out on the rear deck and that's what fell into the ground, calling you a liar would be a real rear end in a top hat move. And in case you forgot the main point of what I was arguing: Kalit posted:It absolutely was a lie from Hamas, they claimed that the hospital was the target. It only came out later that the bomb was adjacent to the hospital. Unless you want to claim that Israel tried to hit the hospital but somehow failed, I guess Kalit posted:
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Nov 2, 2023 16:39
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Kalit posted:And in case you forgot the main point of what I was arguing: It was the courtyard of the hospital, which is a part of the hospital by any reasonable definition. You're pedantic and grasping at straws here.
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Nov 2, 2023 16:40
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Neurolimal posted:It's not about believing one or the other more, it's that one has a consistent case of lying in the past, and has been shown to be lying in the present, and the entirety of the bombing is within their MO (source: thousands of dead Palestinians), and they're the only group with munitions capable of killing 500 people in one blast. The other 'side' put out a sketchy statement. It's not comparable. What is the MO of the IDF? Hamas killed 260 people in one attack without munitions, does that identify them too? Hamas doesn't lie? quote:I want to point out that I Fly Airplanes is constantly accusing people of bad faith, but he also doesn't bother to click through most sources presented to him: Here is the academic that wrote your EI article, which you claim is an objective source: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/the-medias-favorite-israel-bashing-pundit-reveals-his-vile-antisemitism-for-all-to-see/amp/ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2023 16:44
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Kalit posted:And in case you forgot the main point of what I was arguing: That seems to highlight my point, that whether Israel bombed a crowded hospital building or crowded hospital property seems to be the least meaningful point of fact here and it makes me wonder why anyone would hyperfixate on it.
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Nov 2, 2023 16:44
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Been battling people online on this talking point that "Israel is not committing genocide". Found a bunch of sources that suggest otherwise, but this paper in particular shows very concisely that plenty of evidence exists to support the idea that Israel is in fact committing genocide, even going so far as to cite day-by-day sources detailing Israel's stated intent to commit acts against Palestinians that fit the definition of genocide, not to mention actions taken during those times. The timeline ranges from October 7th to the 16th. Mind you this document was published (I believe) on the 18th, so all data contained is limited to that point in time. I wont quote the whole thing since it's 44 pages long, but it's a relatively quick read and is organized very well. I'll share the first subsection of the Findings section. quote:Center for Constitutional Rights Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 16:46
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Kalit posted:Unless you want to claim that Israel tried to hit the hospital but somehow failed, I guess With the caveat that I know nothing about modern guidance systems and I'm literally asking the question but even for modern weapons isn't there a reasonable radius of error that the courtyard would be in?
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Nov 2, 2023 16:52
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i fly airplanes posted:Here is the academic that wrote your EI article, which you claim is an objective source: Is there a specific piece of this article that discredits him? Seems like the Zionists are just mad that he made fun of the ridiculous/evidence-free claim that Hamas baked a baby in an oven. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 16:59
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i fly airplanes posted:What is the MO of the IDF? Bombing the poo poo out of civilian areas. quote:Hamas killed 260 people in one attack without munitions, does that identify them too? ....Do you have any reports of a Hamas soldier blasting away at everyone in the courtyard? Because if you don't then this is incredibly bizarre to put forward. quote:Hamas doesn't lie? To my knowledge they've yet to leap between four different videos alleging each to have been the IDF airstrike that hit the hospital courtyard. Nor have they put forward falsified audio recordings where two guys in Qatar speak in Gazan accents about how much they love to bomb Arabs. This, in fact, gives their statement more credibility. quote:Here is the academic that wrote your EI article, which you claim is an objective source: Which part of this would you say makes it impossible for his house to be bombed?
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Nov 2, 2023 17:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:particularly the mysterious disappearance of all physical remains of the explosive from the scene (which Hamas had control of). This talking point is laughable to me. Obviously Hamas can get their hands on plenty of IDF munitions remnants. If they wanted to they could fake that evidence. And so if they present any evidence the next talking point will be "they are faking it, you can't trust Hamas!" It is pretty clear Hamas has decided they already have won the hearts of the Arabic world on this topic, and they have no faith in Western media to treat their evidence fairly, so they just aren't going to engage further.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:01
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i fly airplanes posted:Here is the academic that wrote your EI article, which you claim is an objective source: Hamas didn't bake a baby in an oven dude.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:09
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i fly airplanes posted:Here is the academic that wrote your EI article, which you claim is an objective source: Literally everything in that article, outside of that first tweet and one dead link, is him criticizing Israel. What part of it do you think disproves his ability to report on a third party's statement? Plus that little "in other news" at the end going to bat for genocide and insane fundamentalist Mike Johnson does not assure me that any of the article's unsourced claims are made in good faith. E: Also yes that first tweet is obviously him mocking the claim, not celebrating the idea of dead babies, in case that needs to be spelled out. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:09
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i fly airplanes posted:What is the MO of the IDF? Do you think National Review, a magazine with a very strong editorial bias, is an objective source on the objectivity of the academic in question?
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Nov 2, 2023 17:13
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Literally everything in that article, outside of that first tweet and one dead link, is him criticizing Israel. What part of it do you think disproves his ability to report on a third party's statement? The same reasons that we are discrediting MEMRI's translations: they have an agenda, they will cherry pick information and choose convenient narratives and media. This is how the conversation came up to begin with. And yes, I am aware the National Review is a right wing publication.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:16
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i fly airplanes posted:Here is the academic that wrote your EI article, which you claim is an objective source: Ah, National Review, the publication that once wrote that Obama's parents must have been communists because "for a white woman to marry a black man in 1958, or 60, there was almost inevitably a connection to explicit Communist politics". Certainly not the first place I'd go for accurate information about people! Of course, if the article's allegations are well-sourced and constitute solid evidence of anti-Semitism, the article might be worth something regardless. Anyway, let's go down the list of specific allegations it made about Alareer:
Not a lot of evidence of anti-Semitism here, but a lot of rather blatant efforts to dishonestly treat anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel as if it were actually anti-Semitism. Certainly none of it suggests that he was lying about his own house being bombed in Gaza.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:16
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i fly airplanes posted:The same reasons that we are discrediting MEMRI's translations: they have an agenda, they will cherry pick information and choose convenient narratives and media. This is how the conversation came up to begin with. I think there's a fundamental difference between "composed of and funded by IDF Intelligence" and "Is Palestinian"
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Nov 2, 2023 17:20
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Main Paineframe posted:[*] He said that "most jews" were either killing Palestinians, supporting the killing of Palestinians, or silent about the killing of Palestinians, and thus complicit in evil Agree with the main thrust of your post. If he actually said this one, I'm not sure what else to call it but antisemitism. If he said it - the NR article doesn't put "most Jews" in quotes, and it links to a dead webpage. So it could be he said something like "anyone who's supporting the State of Israel is..." and CAMERA said "oh, that's true of most Jews, ergo he said this about most Jews." Even if he were a frothing antisemite that doesn't mean he's lying about his house being bombed, I'm sure he's not. Think of how insanely anti-Muslim Americans were after 9/11, there's no imaginable universe where there isn't widespread antisemitism in Palestine after being subjected to insane collective humiliation on explicitly ethnic lines. Groovelord Neato posted:Hamas didn't bake a baby in an oven dude. How do you know? If you send hundreds of methed-up teenagers with insane trauma into enemy territory, it's inevitable that at least one of them will do something truly abominable. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:22
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i fly airplanes posted:The same reasons that we are discrediting MEMRI's translations: they have an agenda, they will cherry pick information and choose convenient narratives and media. This is how the conversation came up to begin with. What, exactly, are you claiming that he is doing? Is the claim that he is lying and deliberately misrepresenting the facts, and that Israel did not in fact bomb his apartment building? Or that he has an agenda when he reports about that particular bombing and does not make equal mention of all the houses that did get warnings, nor the ones that haven't been bombed at all? MEMRI and the IDF have a proven record of outright lying and producing doctored evidence. I don't see anything that makes him comparable to them.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:31
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aBagorn posted:With the caveat that I know nothing about modern guidance systems and I'm literally asking the question but even for modern weapons isn't there a reasonable radius of error that the courtyard would be in? I’m far from a munitions expert, so I’m not 100% sure. However, their Iron Dome is definitely accurate enough, which to be fair is top of the line and probably more accurate than their regular/offensive guided missiles. But, IDF had just hit the hospital itself a few days prior, so they seem to be able to hit it if they want
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Nov 2, 2023 17:32
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Civilized Fishbot posted:How do you know? If you send hundreds of methed-up teenagers with insane trauma into enemy territory, it's plausible to me that one or two of them will do something truly abominable. I personally think it's good and smart to not just assume people did cartoonishly evil things because it's "plausible" without at least confirming it happened first. Otherwise we can just say whatever we want about anyone we don't like. The onus is on the claimant to provide evidence of their statement. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:34
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punishedkissinger posted:I think there's a fundamental difference between "composed of and funded by IDF Intelligence" and "Is Palestinian" Refaat Alareer is not just a regular Palestinian? He's published in the NY Times https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/16/world/middleeast/gaza-university-israel-poet.html Hell of an Editors' note
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Nov 2, 2023 17:34
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Kalit posted:I’m far from a munitions expert, so I’m not 100% sure. However, their Iron Dome is definitely accurate enough, which to be fair is top of the line and probably more accurate than their regular/offensive guided missiles. But, IDF had just hit the hospital itself a few days prior, so they seem to be able to hit it if they want Even firing two missiles at the hospital with like a 5-10 meter error radius could mean one missile hitting the hospital and another hitting the courtyard
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Nov 2, 2023 17:35
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Verisimilidude posted:I personally think it's good and smart to not just assume people do cartoonishly evil things because it's "plausible" without at least confirming it happened first. There was an emergency medic who said that's what he and others saw, and his entire organization (Hatzalah) is backing him up on it: https://www.thejc.com/news/news/i-saw-a-baby-who-had-been-baked-in-an-oven-says-israeli-emergency-worker-6A8bb0Tq56ytMO46OevOzy What's the reason to believe it didn't happen outside the normal human compulsion to hope things like this didn't happen?
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Nov 2, 2023 17:38
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Neurolimal posted:Considering the fact that five hundred people in the courtyard died, I can absolutely assume that whatever scraps or particulate were displaced in the mad dash to find survivors, attend to the dead, clean up the area for new incoming refugees, etc. Neurolimal posted:In any case, I don't think Hamas saying "we don't have any shrapnel" is as much a smoking gun as lying several times over about a weapon that has caused exponentially more damage than a Hamas weapon ever has, while also having shelled the same hospital three days prior, while conducting airstrikes on other targets in the same area, prior to blowing up a refugee camp and causing another bundle of deaths. forgot my pants posted:This talking point is laughable to me. Obviously Hamas can get their hands on plenty of IDF munitions remnants. If they wanted to they could fake that evidence. And so if they present any evidence the next talking point will be "they are faking it, you can't trust Hamas!" On the other hand if this was a Palestinian rocket strike and they're suppressing evidence of that it's very easy to explain why they're not producing fake evidence. Currently whenever an expert is asked for their view on the scene, they'll say something like "it doesn't look like the result of any Israeli weapon I've seen, but I can't rule out that it was the result of something I'm not aware of". Since no-one really has a definitive knowledge of Israeli munitions and what their blasts would look like doubt remains. But if Hamas produced fragments of a specific Israeli munition coming from elsewhere it would be a lot easier to directly compare to other uses of that munition and decisively contradict their story. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:How do you know? If you send hundreds of methed-up teenagers with insane trauma into enemy territory, it's inevitable that at least one of them will do something truly abominable. Yeah they did that - they killed innocent people. The baby in the oven claim has been made multiple times - first during the Hebron massacre in 1929 and then the Deir Yassin massacre.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:39
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Civilized Fishbot posted:How do we know it didn't happen? I would like to know it didn't happen. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the ones making the claim, and a claim is not evidence.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:40
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Civilized Fishbot posted:How do you know? If you send hundreds of methed-up teenagers with insane trauma into enemy territory, it's inevitable that at least one of them will do something truly abominable. I don't personally believe there's a universe where any of the following allegations were true, where Israel would not either disseminate with video/photos themselves or through proxy social media managers: - Beheaded babies - Cooking a baby in an oven - Killing everyone in a house and then putting one family member in an oven and then redecorating the walls with blood - Beheading a family and then using the heads as soccer balls Photos of actual civilian casualties have been disseminated, but not these. The oven baby allegation got extra backlash/notoriety, because it's something Irgun did: Palestine Rising: How I Survived the 1948 Deir Yasin Massacre One of the events described in the book: quote:While holding villagers in the bakery hostage, Zionist soldiers ordered the baker, Hussein al-Shareef from the town of Lydd, to throw his son Abdul Rauf into the burning oven. After refusing, the soldiers knocked Hussein to the ground and proceeded to throw Abdul Rauf into the oven while his father watched Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:42
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aBagorn posted:Even firing two missiles at the hospital with like a 5-10 meter error radius could mean one missile hitting the hospital and another hitting the courtyard Based on the facts of no observable damage to the main hospital building and the picture of the ground at https://www.episcopalnewsservice.or...t-in-courtyard/ (I believe the building is the taller one in the background), I’m going to say no chance it was only 10 meters away.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's true that there was an enormous amount of circumstantial evidence against the IDF, which is why basically all news outlets assumed it was them until extraordinary more direct evidence that it may have been a Palestinian rocket strike emerged. What direct evidence? Last I checked everything the IDF released has been debunked, and as far as I know the closest we have to direct evidence of at least which direction the projectile came from would be the Doppler analysis indicating it came from Israel's direction.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:44
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Judgy Fucker posted:You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the ones making the claim, and a claim is not evidence. You can totally prove a negative. "I am not in Israel right now" is easy to prove. "Hamas did not nuke Tel Aviv" is easy to prove. Even if the claim "Hamas did not kill a baby in that horrifying way" can be proven for a fact, it can be backed by evidence and reasoning. I just want to know what evidence and reasoning is available here or if it's just "nah gently caress Israel they lie about everything." Noise Complaint posted:Instead of rehashing the same hospital incident, I would like to know if the posters continually going to bat for the IDF think they are or are not bombing civilian hospitals. I think there is like one poster here who is going to bat for the IDF. The spectrum of discussion in this thread basically ranges from anti-occupation both-sides-ism to people who aren't sure there's such as an Israeli civilian. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:52
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Instead of rehashing the same hospital incident, I would like to know if the posters continually going to bat for the IDF think they are or are not bombing civilian hospitals.Kalit posted:Is this a rhetorical question? Because I stated very clearly: Civilized Fishbot posted:I think there is like one poster here who is going to bat for the IDF. The spectrum of discussion in this thread basically ranges from anti-occupation both-sides-ism to people who aren't sure there's such as an Israeli civilian. I should have clarified, I'm mostly speaking to Mister Fister and i fly airplanes. Noise Complaint fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 17:52
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Noise Complaint posted:Instead of rehashing the same hospital incident, I would like to know if the posters continually going to bat for the IDF think they are or are not bombing civilian hospitals. Is this a rhetorical question? Because I stated very clearly: Kalit posted:I’m far from a munitions expert, so I’m not 100% sure. However, their Iron Dome is definitely accurate enough, which to be fair is top of the line and probably more accurate than their regular/offensive guided missiles. But, IDF had just hit the hospital itself a few days prior, so they seem to be able to hit it if they want
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Nov 2, 2023 17:55
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Israel wont even be truthful about the October 7 attack, the one thing pretty much everyone is on their side over. But the more they lie about even that event, and what took place, the more people will begin to think it wasnt as bad as what has been portrayed. There is already increasing doubt over the death toll and just how many killed were by the IDF.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:00
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Kalit posted:Based on the facts of no observable damage to the main hospital building and the picture of the ground at https://www.episcopalnewsservice.or...t-in-courtyard/ (I believe the building is the taller one in the background), I’m going to say no chance it was only 10 meters away. From what I can tell the building with this blue windows bit is the main building, and you can see its position relative to the impact site in this image (sourcing the first image from here and the second from here) I think the taller building in the background is unrelated. e: Another article with more images. I dunno that looks like within ten meters to my untrained eyes? Based on the cars it also looks like that photo you used was taken pointing away from the main building TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:01
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TGLT posted:From what I can tell the building with this blue windows bit is the main building, and you can see its position relative to the impact site in this image (sourcing the first image from here and the second from here) Thanks for the additional diving into this. It's hard to say, but looking at a generic full-size passenger van, it's length is ~5.5 meters. It looks like it'd be more than double the length of the van in that picture, but not sure if it'd be too much further? And like I said in my previous post, I'm far from a munitions expert, so I have no idea if 10m would be under/over the margin of error for Israel's rockets.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:18
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Mister Fister posted:Harvard Students surround Jewish student, make physical contact with him, impede his ability to leave, and just starts screaming at him. This is from several pages ago, but there's some additional context that was clearly left out of your framing of what happened in this incident: https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1719937077779845619 https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1719941803816726660
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Nov 2, 2023 18:19
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I'm still of the opinion that the hospital strike was a PIJ rocket misfire rather than an Israeli airstrike simply because we have seen enough evidence of verified Israeli airstrikes on hospitals that I find it hard to believe that this one time they targeted a hospital, their super accurate guided weapons instead hit an adjacent parking lot instead of the intended hospital. To me the biggest evidence that the hospital wasn't hit by Israel is that the hospital is still standing to begin with. Israel has shown little to no compuncture about civilian targets and their weaponry is as accurate as you can get. It doesn't make sense why they'd miss this time instead of blowing up the hospital like they have been doing previously (even hitting the same hospital a few days earlier! But now they miss?? By that much of a margin?) If the hospital was the intended target then in any case even if the first missile WAS an Israeli miss, their doctrine is to use multiple munitions anyway, and the hospital wasn't hit with any follow up strikes. Israel is predictable in their brutality such that you can get an idea of who attacked what by how relatively destructive it is compared to known Israeli attacks.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:22
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This is so common in campus politics, and domestic politics which are coming to resemble campus politics, where a student is described as "Jewish" in a way that implies without explicitly stating that the student was targeted for being Jewish. And really the student was targeted for deliberately antagonizing pro-Palestine protesters. Like everything Israel is doing right now, it's a boy-who-cried-wolf approach to antisemitism which is making it impossible to get sincere attention for actual antisemitic trends/events.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:25
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