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Sub Par posted:The Daily (NYT podcast) today is about Robert Card and how he was able to commit these crimes while clearly posing a danger. I recommend a listen, it's a good and depressing overview of the situation. The moral of the story is that everyone seems to have done the "right thing" with the possible exception of the local Sherriff's office. They could have used Maine's "yellow flag" laws to take his guns, and did not even try. Bird in a Blender posted:This is very similar to what happened in the Aurora, IL shooting. Guy had bought guns legally, but later on it was discovered that he had a felony conviction in another state, so his firearm card (FOID in Illinois) was revoked. The state police said he needs to turn in his guns, but did zero follow up on it. He then used those guns to shoot up his old work place. The laws that exist only serve as documentation that people around the eventual soft-target spree-killer were not ignorant or actively conspiring for the multiple murders. Its a EULA check box on an app of being an American in a time of being machine-gunned in a parking lot.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:58
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If you're this guy's family or friends, I don't know how you aren't burning down the joint over this. The Army, his fellow reservists, his friends, his family (including teenage son and ex-wife) all tried multiple times and in multiple ways to get this guy help and let people know that he was not well. Now 18 people have been murdered and your friend/family member/co-worker is dead too. It's incredibly tragic. To me, this should put an absolute end to the "focus on mental health" argument against gun control. Everyone involved went in with good intentions and did their level best (again, except for possibly the cops which, lol) and the outcome was loving terrible anyway. He got put in an inpatient facility for 2 weeks which did nothing, and he was able to freely continue buying guns and sinking deeper into delusion. Mental health is a huge problem, but it is not the problem, as this case clearly shows.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:35
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Sub Par posted:If you're this guy's family or friends, I don't know how you aren't burning down the joint over this. The Army, his fellow reservists, his friends, his family (including teenage son and ex-wife) all tried multiple times and in multiple ways to get this guy help and let people know that he was not well. Now 18 people have been murdered and your friend/family member/co-worker is dead too. It's incredibly tragic. It clearly doesn’t. He didn’t get mental health. Every flag was risen. Taking his guns wasn’t going to stop anything here. He was killing something somehow. All you are wishing is for him to kill himself. All these gun laws etc all presume we can’t find the crazies. Yet every single crazy is well known by multiple agencies and they just watch them burn out without trying to help. Instituting gun grabbing is only going to make them more reluctant to seek help. Mid-Life Crisis fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:42
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Sub Par posted:I. Mental health is a huge problem, but it is not the problem, as this case clearly shows. Ehh. If we had true universal health care AND a generalized ability to effectively order people to comply with outpatient medical care, that could have in theory prevented thus. It would involve compulsory administration of psych meds and a national mental health care program which are relative impossibilities but in theory there's an avenue towards a solution there. Or we could just confiscate guns a great deal more rigorously.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:43
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:It clearly doesn’t. He didn’t get mental health. Every flag was risen. Taking his guns wasn’t going to stop anything here. He was killing something somehow. All you are wishing is for him to kill himself. 
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Nov 2, 2023 19:45
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Or we could just confiscate guns a great deal more rigorously. We need to make it so you can't go out and buy a gun off the shelf in the first place, but the political lift to enact this is so enormous it's taken to be completely impossible as a fundamental axiom of american politics
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Nov 2, 2023 19:47
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:It clearly doesn’t. He didn’t get mental health. Every flag was risen. Taking his guns wasn’t going to stop anything here. He was killing something somehow. All you are wishing is for him to kill himself. Gun control does work. Look at nearly every other similar country. Look at studies. Preventing access to a gun prevents said person from using a gun. Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:47
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Taking his guns would have made him less effective.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:50
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They were his emotional support armaments.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:55
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:It clearly doesn’t. He didn’t get mental health. Every flag was risen. Taking his guns wasn’t going to stop anything here. He was killing something somehow. All you are wishing is for him to kill himself. How about we grab them guns and do national health & mental care? I'm not sure how you come the conclusion "if we threaten to take people's guns, they'll be less likely to seek help" seeing as this person did not seek help even without a meaningful threat to their guns. gently caress guns. gently caress the second amendment, and gently caress every bit of apologia and logic twisting people do to justify doing everything but trying to reduce how normalized firearm ownership is.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:55
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:It clearly doesn’t. He didn’t get mental health. Every flag was risen. Taking his guns wasn’t going to stop anything here. He was killing something somehow. All you are wishing is for him to kill himself. I doubt he could've killed 18 people across 2 separate locations without a gun, unless he was actually a wizard or John Wick.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:57
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Tbh people comically gagging at extremely common sauces like ketchup/mayo make me want to eat like garbage too, just to spite them. yeah norovirus typically only lasts for ~36-48 hours
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Nov 2, 2023 19:59
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This reminds me of this story from a couple of days ago, where they found the dead body of a guy tac rigged up with guns, mags, pipe bombs, etc. in the bathroom of a Colorado amusement park. But before he could do it, he killed himself instead. I think a lot of these mass shootings are suicides, just people who are so hosed up they want to take a bunch of people with them. But this guy, I just found his story sad, he got up to the edge and ultimately couldn't do it, and then just took his own life instead of shooting up a amusement park full of kids. Proliferation of guns and ammo and our hosed up gun culture are absolutely the #1 cause of mass shootings and probably the top contributor to violent crime, but the mental health stuff isn't just a dodge.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:31
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Yeah we can have garbage tier mental health care and also terrible gun laws at the same time. Fixing one doesn’t fix the other, even if some of the symptoms of both issues are the same.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:34
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zoux posted:This reminds me of this story from a couple of days ago, where they found the dead body of a guy tac rigged up with guns, mags, pipe bombs, etc. in the bathroom of a Colorado amusement park. But before he could do it, he killed himself instead. I think a lot of these mass shootings are suicides, just people who are so hosed up they want to take a bunch of people with them. But this guy, I just found his story sad, he got up to the edge and ultimately couldn't do it, and then just took his own life instead of shooting up a amusement park full of kids. Proliferation of guns and ammo and our hosed up gun culture are absolutely the #1 cause of mass shootings and probably the top contributor to violent crime, but the mental health stuff isn't just a dodge. Oh I want to make it clear that I'm not saying the mental health stuff is a dodge generally. I am talking about messaging from the right and the "center" on why we "don't need to regulate guns, we just need to improve mental health care", I think this shooting should be the end of anyone taking that argument seriously. It's very much both-and, I just think coming for the guns is something that is more straightforward while we work to break down and rebuild our completely broken healthcare system and society.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:36
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:It clearly doesn’t. He didn’t get mental health. Every flag was risen. Taking his guns wasn’t going to stop anything here. He was killing something somehow. All you are wishing is for him to kill himself. Not to bring the thread back to harm reduction chat, but he did kill himself. That was his cause of death afaik. After killing 18 other people. So even when you frame it this way, it's still better or no change for everyone involved if he didn't have his guns.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:39
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zoux posted:This reminds me of this story from a couple of days ago, where they found the dead body of a guy tac rigged up with guns, mags, pipe bombs, etc. in the bathroom of a Colorado amusement park. But before he could do it, he killed himself instead. I think a lot of these mass shootings are suicides, just people who are so hosed up they want to take a bunch of people with them. But this guy, I just found his story sad, he got up to the edge and ultimately couldn't do it, and then just took his own life instead of shooting up a amusement park full of kids. Proliferation of guns and ammo and our hosed up gun culture are absolutely the #1 cause of mass shootings and probably the top contributor to violent crime, but the mental health stuff isn't just a dodge. Jesus Christ. You literally describe a mental health crisis then blame guns. Unreal cognitive dissonance. You all wish death on depressed folks with this attitude. It’s disgusting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2023 20:45
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Jesus Christ. You literally describe a mental health crisis then blame guns. Unreal cognitive dissonance. You all wish death on depressed folks with this attitude. It’s disgusting. My nephew, in a fight with his girlfriend, had a moment of poor judgement and teen emotion and took a gun that was to hand and killed himself with it. Had the gun not been there, just the MH crisis, he would be alive today. The accessibility to guns mixed with mental health problems is the deadly combo. I assure you I am not wishing death on depressed folks. Most people who attempt suicide don't really want to die, I think the reattempt rate for survivors is somewhere around 12%? The issue is that most other common methods of suicide aren't nearly as lethal and so that one mistake doesn't result in the end of their lives. Journalistic practices preclude reporting on suicides in almost all situations, so we don't have the staggering number of firearms suicides pushed in our faces every day. But as far as body count goes, the real issue with firearms and mental health is suicide. 
zoux fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 20:48
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zoux posted:. I think a lot of these mass shootings are suicides, just people who are so hosed up they want to take a bunch of people with them. But this guy, I just found his story sad, he got up to Yeah, we basically have a repeating "suicide cluster" around mass shootings (it's a term, look it up). But the way you deal with a suicide cluster is twofold. First you remove access to the means (if everyone is taking oleander poison, you ban oleander) and second you provide easy free mental health care around suicide. But American politics prevent either, which is why we're uniquely bad on this problem. Some countries have lots of guns but also lots of mental health care. Other countries have little mental health care but also few guns. We have lots of guns and little mental health care So here we are.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:49
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Jesus Christ. You literally describe a mental health crisis then blame guns. Unreal cognitive dissonance. You all wish death on depressed folks with this attitude. It’s disgusting. No one is saying there isn’t a mental health crises. The availability of guns makes the impact of that crisis worse because the collateral damage is multiplied. Fixing the mental health crises wouldn’t end all issues with readily available guns. Fixing readily available guns wouldn’t fix the mental health crises. We can have two problems at the same time.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:54
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We also focus on mass shootings and shooters who were mentally ill/driven by hate. Those are still a relatively small amount of deaths from guns in the U.S. Most guns deaths are just people shooting one or two other people in a crime or domestic dispute. About 21,000 people die from gun homicides every year in the U.S. Mass shootings are usually between 50 and 100 of those deaths per year.
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Nov 2, 2023 20:55
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Mental health is important, especially for certain kinds of mass shootings that are especially shocking, but it isn't a major part of the actual gun homocide rate in the U.S. It is a big part of the suicide deaths by guns, about half of which are likely preventable because roughly 50% of suicidal people do so in a moment of crisis and never try again. We focus a lot on mass shootings, death by cops, mentally ill shooters, and racist shooters. But, the reason so many people die from guns in the U.S. is that hundreds of people are getting shot every day in the U.S. These are the main sources: Suicide: 26,328 Homicide: 20,958 Accidents: 549 Involving Law Enforcement (this is all deaths, including justified shootings): 537 Undetermined Cause or Motive: 458 Mental health is a major factor in suicides and some mass shootings. Unjustified police shootings are a real problem. A lack of gun safety practices being used in America is a serious issue. However, none of those are the reasons that hundreds of people are dying every day from being shot in the U.S. It's because guns are everywhere, easy to get, and a huge amount of people use them in domestic disputes, drug-related activity, or when committing crimes. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
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Nov 2, 2023 21:06
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:We also focus on mass shootings and shooters who were mentally ill/driven by hate. We also focus heavily on the guns that are least used in crime/suicide and which can be most easily substituted for in the crimes where they are used. Most mass shootings falling under assault weapon definitions would have been similarly deadly with pretty much any gun made post-1900, but the vast majority of gun crime and suicide is heavily slanted toward handguns, particularly smaller, cheaper ones.
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Nov 2, 2023 21:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
Can you throw a "deaths per year" on your stats list? That looks like yearly numbers, at least. The commentary before and after talk about people shot per day, so the numbers seem to imply "per day" but clearly that's not per day.
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Nov 2, 2023 21:17
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I don’t think anybody was under the impression there are 10 million suicides annually in the US.
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Nov 2, 2023 21:23
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Misunderstood posted:I don’t think anybody was under the impression there are 10 million suicides annually in the US. Yeah that was pretty much how it went. "Wait, isn't that like 10 million a year? That can't be right..."
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Nov 2, 2023 21:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Mental health is important, especially for certain kinds of mass shootings that are especially shocking, but it isn't a major part of the actual gun homocide rate in the U.S. Wrong https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6187796/ No statistical drop in suicides when you don’t ignore everything else. People who want to die will die. Guns aren’t it. These people need help. Stop alienating half the country trying to grab guns Mid-Life Crisis fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 21:46
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Wrong That study basically says that homicides plummeted and that suicides plummeted as well, but suicide rates were already falling beforehand, so it is hard to say how much was a direct result of gun control. If the worst case scenario is "homicide rates were slashed in half and suicides declines by almost 60%, but we can't say for sure that all of the decline in suicides was due to gun control," then that is a pretty strong case for it. That study is also the only major one that says there was no relationship. Every other study basically says "it definitely reduced suicides, but we can't say by how much exactly." quote:In 2011, Harvard's David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis reviewed the research on Australia's suicide and homicide rate after the NFA. Their conclusion was clear: "The NFA seems to have been incredibly successful in terms of lives saved." https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
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Nov 2, 2023 21:55
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quote:It is imperative that this political moment, which is so rare in the face of 20 years of political action to restrain real action on firearms-related mortality,7 not be squandered on a law that will have limited impact. To achieve real, sustained reductions in the majority of causes of firearm-related mortality, the United States needs a broader, more comprehensive range of gun control measures than those in the NFA.28 If American public health policymakers focus on policy on the basis of Australia’s full suite of gun policy laws, they may be able to achieve real and sustainable public health benefits and make real progress toward minimizing this completely preventable and uniquely American problem.
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Nov 2, 2023 21:57
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I see that Graham made some good points in the Senate against Tuberville and that’s the loving worst.
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Nov 2, 2023 22:02
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It's been buried, but a bunch of GOP senators are done with Tuberville blocking military promotions and went after him last night with little warning. https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/1719863652491440480 It is bad enough that there are proposals to waive the normal rules and do it all as a bloc.
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Nov 2, 2023 22:06
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Other than being a massive attention-whore, why is Tuberville doing this again?
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Nov 2, 2023 22:07
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Fetuses
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Nov 2, 2023 22:08
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Randalor posted:Other than being a massive attention-whore, why is Tuberville doing this again? He's Real Mad about the military letting its members travel out of state to receive healthcare that Republicans have banned in states they control
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Nov 2, 2023 22:09
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Randalor posted:Other than being a massive attention-whore, why is Tuberville doing this again? His officially stated reason is due to not forcing the Pentagon to restrict abortion rights. His actual reason is gently caress you.
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Nov 2, 2023 22:09
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Randalor posted:Other than being a massive attention-whore, why is Tuberville doing this again? Protesting the Army offering to give staff time off and pay for travel expenses if they need an abortion and are stationed somewhere where it is illegal or inconvenient. They implemented it after Roe v. Wade was struck down last year.
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Nov 2, 2023 22:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Protesting the Army offering to give staff time off and pay for travel expenses if they need an abortion and are stationed somewhere where it is illegal or inconvenient. It’s been army policy for forever to send people wherever they need to go if care isn’t locally available, this is just an extension of that. Naturally, touchdown tommy is mad about it.
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Nov 2, 2023 22:25
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VA hospitals won’t even accept anyone pregnant even if they show up to the ER they’ll ship you elsewhere and pay for it
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Nov 2, 2023 22:29
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It seems the vote to censure Tlaib was defeated, how of much of that being Republican backstabbing MTG I am not sure about. https://apnews.com/article/congress-house-censure-resolution-greene-tlaib-48d109c21c11f8df80053d15ff7b77b7
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Nov 2, 2023 23:33
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Jesus Christ. You literally describe a mental health crisis then blame guns. Unreal cognitive dissonance. You all wish death on depressed folks with this attitude. It’s disgusting. I have had mental health issues my entire life, including suicidal ideation. How do you think my actual attempt would have gone if I had access to a gun? I didn't, so I just ended up in the hospital for a few days and was lucky enough to get away with no permanent effects. That's not what would have happened if I had been able to use a firearm.
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Nov 2, 2023 23:52
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