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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah nobody here is unclear about this. We have been discussing it every day for weeks. Even in that post you're quoting I clearly agree that Israeli culture is "obsessed with keeping the Palestinians in a subordinate position." Nope, just making sure I didn't misunderstand what you'd written.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:28
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O well, doesn't look like Hezbollah is going in to help Gaza out by clowning on IDF. Bummer
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Nov 3, 2023 15:28
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BUUNNI posted:Explain the difference between "settlement" and "Israeli settlement" please. They are both the same thing. I believe neither the Palestinian residents of Gaza nor the Israeli settlers would call them anything other than settlements. The point isn't that Hamas refused to attack settlements. There weren't any settlements for them to attack; they're all in the West Bank, not Gaza. The point is that the communities they attacked weren't settlements, and thus the attacks on them can't be justified as fighting back against settlers' active theft of land.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:34
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Stringent posted:Nope, just making sure I didn't misunderstand what you'd written. Groovelord Neato posted:I understand how the Nazis defended or justified their actions and why they actually did them. I don't know how to interpret these weird innuendos except that any attempt to understand Israeli culture should be either dismissed - "it's not that complicated they're just Nazis" - or held in suspicion as an implicit endorsement of Israeli apartheid. BUUNNI posted:Explain the difference between "settlement" and "Israeli settlement" please. They are both the same thing. I believe neither the Palestinian residents of Gaza nor the Israeli settlers would call them anything other than settlements. An Israeli settlement is an attempt to start a civilian community on land taken in the six-day war by forcing out the Palestinians who live there. They're illegal under international law, and they're despicable crimes against humanity. They're in the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Kfar Aza was founded before the six-day war, it's not an Israeli settlement. Nobody in Palestine-Israel would call it a settlement.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:35
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Nasrallah seems to have rambled a lot and not really said anything of substance - definitely doesn't seem like he's planning to declare all-out war against Israel imminently. Notably though he very categorically denied that Hezbollah had anything to do with 10/7 - seems like Hamas will have to face the consequences of that particular action alone. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/03/israel-gaza-latest-news-updates-hamas-palestine-day-28-live/ quote:“This glorious, blessed large scale operation was one hundred per cent Palestinian in terms of decision and execution,” he said. “The Palestinians had kept it secret." Groovelord Neato posted:I understand how the Nazis defended or justified their actions and why they actually did them. Groovelord Neato posted:It won't make a difference in terms of how willing Israel is to accept losses.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:45
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These are not contradictory positions I didn't say they were Nazi-like in every way.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:46
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It's sad to see the thread back to arguing whether or not slaughtering civilians is OKAY or not
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Nov 3, 2023 15:50
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Groovelord Neato posted:These are not contradictory positions I didn't say they were Nazi-like in every way. You should spell out what you were trying to say, because the literal content of your post - "Forums User Groovelord Neato is very familiar with the history of Nazi Germany" - is off-topic for this discussion. You should state outright what you were trying to imply so we can engage that point in a productive way. Irony Be My Shield posted:Nasrallah seems to have rambled a lot and not really said anything of substance - definitely doesn't seem like he's planning to declare all-out war against Israel imminently. Notably though he very categorically denied that Hezbollah had anything to do with 10/7 - seems like Hamas will have to face the consequences of that particular action alone. What military precedent exists for something like Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, where the lack of preparation of the enemy turned it into a quagmire disavowed by everyone who can disavow it? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 15:51
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BUUNNI posted:Explain the difference between "settlement" and "Israeli settlement" please. They are both the same thing. I believe neither the Palestinian residents of Gaza nor the Israeli settlers would call them anything other than settlements. Kfar Aza literally means Gaza Village. Sorry if it comes off as rude, but you can start by reading this wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement I realise it's confusing when specialised terms are similar to common words, but there is a meaningful distinction between what is called Israeli villages/towns/cities and what is called Israeli settlements.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:55
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Civilized Fishbot posted:You should spell out what you were trying to say, because "Forums User Groovelord Neato is very familiar with the history of Nazi Germany" is off-topic for this discussion. I thought it was fairly simple - the Nazis claimed that Jewish people were undermining Germany (or "Aryans" in general) when they knew that wasn't the case and were using it as justification to murder people they saw as lesser. The local populations they riled up to murder their Jewish neighbors didn't think those neighbors were an actual fifth column they thought they were lesser than them. The Israeli justifications are similar - they're excuses to subjugate a population they see as lesser than them.
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Nov 3, 2023 15:58
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Kalit posted:What Israeli settlement(s) were attacked by Hamas on 10/7? Nice one mate.  E: Maybe I read too much into that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2023 16:01
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I'm sure that's true. But your references to "trivia" and "bonus victim points" are bizarre because it's clear why Irony Be My Shield was bringing up the comparison - not to make the brutal murder of 1000 civilians seem somehow even worse than it was, but to explain the profound effect of it on Israel public opinion. Honest question - where does the massacre rank in "top massacres within 500 km from Tel Aviv"? The reason trying to draw a line all the way back to the Holocaust is so galling is because there are much more relevant comparisons that are both more recent and more proximate. It's the usual "it's only a massacre when it happens to our people, otherwise it's sparkling civilian casualties"
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Nov 3, 2023 16:05
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Paladinus posted:Sorry if it comes off as rude, but you can start by reading this wikipedia article. Forgive my ignorance- are Palestinians allowed to live in Gaza Village?
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Nov 3, 2023 16:12
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People predicting 12 hours ago that Hezbollah were going to announce their massing of troops wasn't sabre rattling and were going to come to Palestine's aid they just needed to wait for the speech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2023 16:15
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Groovelord Neato posted:The local populations they riled up to murder their Jewish neighbors didn't think those neighbors were an actual fifth column Yeah if you don't think Israelis are actually scared of Hamas, and Palestinians in general, then I don't know what to tell you. A lot of racial hatred is motivated by sincerely felt irrational fear - "they are going to do to us what has been done to us before, and we have been doing to them." For example, White Americans, as a culture, are sincerely terrified of Black Americans, Hispanic Americans, Muslim Americans and more. It doesn't change the ethics of the Israeli destruction of Gaza. But it's just incorrect to believe that Israelis are not seriously obsessed with the idea that anti-Jewish violence is an ever-present danger. It is a cornerstone of Israeli culture, it's baked into every institution, it's facilitating every crime in Gaza. Ignoring it helps no one. BougieBitch posted:Honest question - where does the massacre rank in "top massacres within 500 km from Tel Aviv"? The reason trying to draw a line all the way back to the Holocaust is so galling is because there are much more relevant comparisons that are both more recent and more proximate. It's the usual "it's only a massacre when it happens to our people, otherwise it's sparkling civilian casualties" I don't think that's an honest question, it's a rhetorical question. But your point is correct - Israeli Jewish culture is more focused on events that happened to "them" relatively long ago than to "another nation" much more recently. Part of this was a mistaken pride that Israeli Jews were immune to the mass civilian violence that takes place in so many other countries. I don't know if that makes them special or just human, but either way it's the reality of how that country works right now. BUUNNI posted:Forgive my ignorance- are Palestinians allowed to live in Gaza Village? A Palestinian citizen would have the right to live in Kfar Aza. Whether any actually would, considering the outrageous racism of the country, probably not. EDIT: re below post, God loving Dammit. God loving Dammit Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 16:15
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poo poo, looks like Israel finally did a high-casualty strike on al-Shifa. As the tweet says, the video contains  content, so watch out if you hit play.mod edit: ~snip~ That's a hard no on this. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 16:16
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah if you don't think Israelis are actually scared of Hamas, and Palestinians in general, then I don't know what to tell you. A lot of racial hatred is motivated by sincere fear - "they are going to do to us what has been done to us before, and we have been doing to them." It's an honest question in that I don't have the answer and would like the answer - I don't exactly think a Google search would give an accurate answer and it's pretty important for the sake of having conversations outside this forum to be able to speak to how much violence has happened in and around Jordan/Lebanon/Palestine where they border Israel and in what years/with what frequency. Edit: and, of course, with the understanding that the raw death toll of, like, the 1948 or 1967 wars aren't a collection of "massacres", when you say massacre you actually mean actions that are intended to kill civilians and have little to no military justification. In that regard, the total death toll of 10/7 is at least two separate events where the attack on active military personnel is not really fair to include BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 16:21
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BUUNNI posted:Forgive my ignorance- are Palestinians allowed to live in Gaza Village? What does a name of the city have to do with what country it's located in? Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 16:24
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What would have to happen for the men who bombed that hospital, or ordered its bombing, to be charged with war crimes? Like I know it's not realistic but exactly what has to happen considering that Israel doesn't sign any of those treaties. Could anything short of actual military force from the "First World" achieve justice here? BougieBitch posted:It's an honest question in that I don't have the answer and would like the answer - I don't exactly think a Google search would give an accurate answer and it's pretty important for the sake of having conversations outside this forum to be able to speak to how much violence has happened in and around Jordan/Lebanon/Palestine where they border Israel and in what years/with what frequency. That's fair. I thought you were just making the point "Israelis care more about atrocities from almost a century ago than more recent atrocities because they're ethnocentric, and that's bad." There's a Wikipedia article "list of anthropogenic disasters by death toll" that's probably the closest you'd get to answering that question. I think the answer is that it's not unprecedented since WWII - there's the Israeli campaigns against the Palestinians and the Sabra/Shatila massacres - but it's still a very high amount of civilians to die on one day even in the Middle East. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 16:26
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BougieBitch posted:Honest question - where does the massacre rank in "top massacres within 500 km from Tel Aviv"? The reason trying to draw a line all the way back to the Holocaust is so galling is because there are much more relevant comparisons that are both more recent and more proximate. It's the usual "it's only a massacre when it happens to our people, otherwise it's sparkling civilian casualties"  Less deadly that Operation Protective Edge and the ongoing Swords of Iron (which has of course already dwarfed the total dead in previous Gaza conflicts combined), more deadly than any other previous Gaza campaign. Comparable to the entire 2006 Lebanon war (Amnesty International puts Lebanese civilians killed at 1191). I don't know if it's necessarily fair to rank military campaigns lasting over a month in the same category as a targeted massacre of civilians carried out over a weekend though. If we're more strict about what constitutes an individual massacre rather than bundling up a whole military campaign up I suspect 10/7 was the worst at the time it was committed (at least for recent events involving Israel). Civilized Fishbot posted:EDIT: removed inaccurate claim. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/israeli-families-bring-war-crime-complaint-to-icc-against-hamas Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 16:38
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Just evacuate the hospitals a lot of people in this thread said.
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Nov 3, 2023 16:49
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Kalit posted:What does a name of the city have to do with what country it's located in? What’s wrong with using the actual name of place? It’s literally called Gaza Village and only Israelis seem to habitate it.
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Nov 3, 2023 16:51
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 17:06
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BUUNNI posted:What’s wrong with using the actual name of place? It’s literally called Gaza Village and only Israelis seem to habitate it. It's a sickening irony that exposes the madness of Israeli apartheid, it's still not correct to call Kfar Aza/Gaza Village a settlement, and the civilians who lived there were not settlers. Irony Be My Shield posted:The ICC would need to decide it has jurisdiction - it's a weird situation since the PA signed Palestine up for it, but it's unclear whether that would include Gaza which they've never really had control over. Hamas probably doesn't want much to do with the ICC given that they're also very openly committing war crimes such as taking civilian hostages. Plus there's no actual way for their investigators to get into Gaza given that it's under blockade by Israel (and again there's a good chance Hamas wouldn't even want them even if Israel were to let them in). There are complaints going through from both sides though so we'll probably get an answer at some point. You have to wonder if Hamas' inability/unwillingness to work with the ICC is one of the reasons that Netanyahu was so keen for them to rule Gaza.
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Nov 3, 2023 17:10
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BougieBitch posted:Honest question - where does the massacre rank in "top massacres within 500 km from Tel Aviv"? The reason trying to draw a line all the way back to the Holocaust is so galling is because there are much more relevant comparisons that are both more recent and more proximate. It's the usual "it's only a massacre when it happens to our people, otherwise it's sparkling civilian casualties" In terms of single-day death tolls, it ranks quite high. Probably in the top five for sure. While there's been plenty of blood shed in the region for sure, killing more than a thousand people in a single day is rare. Even during the bloodiest days of 1948 when racist militias were roaming the countryside and slaughtering entire villages, the areas they targeted were pretty sparsely populated and many people had already fled, so the death count from any individual massacre never really went above a couple hundred. BUUNNI posted:Forgive my ignorance- are Palestinians allowed to live in Gaza Village? BUUNNI posted:What’s wrong with using the actual name of place? It’s literally called Gaza Village and only Israelis seem to habitate it. Can you please just say what your actual argument is? You don't have to fit all your posts into 140 characters here, you can just go ahead and say what you want to say instead of trickling it out one sentence at a time.
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Nov 3, 2023 17:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's a sickening irony that exposes the madness of Israeli apartheid, it's still not correct to call Kfar Aza/Gaza Village a settlement, and the civilians who lived there were not settlers. Then why did the AP call it a settlement? Why do no Palestinians seem to inhabit this area? Did Western powers dividing up Palestinian land to form Israel arbitrarily decide the borders to what counts as "settlement" vs "sparkling settlement"?
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Nov 3, 2023 17:25
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BUUNNI posted:Then why did the AP call it a settlement? Ask them. If I had to guess, poor choice of words using "settlement" to mean "small/remote community" and not its meaning in relation to the Israeli settlers movement. quote:Why do no Palestinians seem to inhabit this area? Because Israel is a very segregated society. quote:Did Western powers dividing up Palestinian land to form Israel arbitrarily decide the borders to what counts as "settlement" vs "sparkling settlement"? Yes it's decided by the internationally-recognized borders which like all borders are arbitrary bullshit. There are enormous differences in how things work in an actual Israeli settlement vs an Israeli town that's not a settlement - most primarily whether the Palestinians are being actively displaced from the land or whether the crime was committed decades ago.
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Nov 3, 2023 17:31
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Darth Walrus posted:poo poo, looks like Israel finally did a high-casualty strike on al-Shifa. As the tweet says, the video contains Only seeing this on Al-Jazeera right now. The story link below has a picture of a destroyed ambulance and a dead horse. Quoted the full story text so people don't have to click and its breaking news.  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/several-killled-in-israeli-attack-on-ambulance-convoy-gaza-health-ministryAl-Jazeera posted:Several people have been killed and dozens of others wounded in an Israeli attack on an ambulance convoy near the al-Shifa hospital in the besieged Gaza Strip, according to the Palestinian health ministry. Edit: Story updated some, keeping the old one to show changes/additions. Al-Jazeera posted:Several people have been killed and dozens of others wounded in an Israeli attack on an ambulance convoy near the al-Shifa hospital in the besieged Gaza Strip, according to the Palestinian health ministry. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 17:32
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's a sickening irony that exposes the madness of Israeli apartheid, it's still not correct to call Kfar Aza/Gaza Village a settlement, and the civilians who lived there were not settlers. The ICC is a joke, and designed to be a joke. Anyone with any financial or military clout just flat-out ignores it and the leading superpower is on record saying it will bomb the court before it lets a citizen get sentenced. It's a weak sop tothe whole "rules-based international order" shell game. "See, we put this loser from a marginal country's civil war no one gives a toss about in prison! Tremble in fear, tyrant wannabes! Better stay on the straight and narrow, or one of your party's subsecretaries might do some time 15 years from now!"
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Nov 3, 2023 17:33
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Tai posted:O well, doesn't look like Hezbollah is going in to help Gaza out by clowning on IDF. Bummer
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Nov 3, 2023 17:35
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*wrong thread*
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Nov 3, 2023 17:39
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The IDF has an army designed around bombing schools and hospitals; Hezbollah likely wants a slow escalation where the US is reluctant to enter, and Israel is too busy bombing an ambulance to go for them. Not exactly a warm comfort to say to Hamas "it's a war of attrition! You're to be attrited.", though. On the other side of things: E: Removed IDF tweet because it was replying to a tweet that had a video which was blurred but suggestive, of the IDF evacuating a wounded soldier, edited out but translation remains below. quote:So far, about 260 wounded have been evacuated to hospitals in Israel, as part of about 150 airborne and ground rescue activities in cooperation with the ground forces and the elite units of the IDF >> As far as the casualty-averse IDF goes, 30 deaths and 260 wounded to cross open fields is massive. To aid their KDR, the IDF have taken to summarily executing everyone they see on the coastal road. AJE has this confirmed, but I'd advise against looking for graphic reasons. They did this & bombing the Al-Shifa hospital gates within minutes of concluding Tony's meeting. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 17:52
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Seeing the latest atrocities that Israel committed today, has completely destroyed what little left there was of my soul.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:19
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 18:37
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One of the WaPo updates stated this:quote:“In support of hostage recovery efforts, the U.S. is conducting unarmed [drone] flights over Gaza, as well as providing advice and assistance to support our Israeli partner as they work on their hostage recovery efforts,” Pentagon spokesman Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder said in a statement Friday. On Thursday, the New York Times first reported the flights, which “began after the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel,” Ryder said https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/03/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-palestine/ It's the first I've read of the US providing direct, what I assume to be, targeting information for Israeli sorties. Maybe I'm reading too far into it, but what else would unarmed drones be doing besides recon?
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Nov 3, 2023 19:05
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ummel posted:One of the WaPo updates stated this: Recon ≠ direct targeting information. While it might also contain that, I doubt that Israel really needs US drones in the area as much as US intelligence services do. I'm just going to mention that the "flying drones over the area" and "providing assistance" are mentioned separately, which is not the same as "flying drones over the area TO provide assistance". Whether the semantic difference matters is anyone's guess, but it should be noted nevertheless. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 19:14
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ummel posted:One of the WaPo updates stated this: Reconnaissance, surveillance and above all, target acquisition
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Nov 3, 2023 19:46
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IDF isn't even trying to hide it, their "spin" on this one is that Hamas was using the ambulances, so they bombed them. Which if I'm not mistaken, even if it was Hamas using the ambulances, it would still be a war crime: https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1720510816930157050?s=20
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Nov 3, 2023 19:47
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Orthanc6 posted:IDF isn't even trying to hide it, their "spin" on this one is that Hamas was using the ambulances, so they bombed them. Which if I'm not mistaken, even if it was Hamas using the ambulances, it would still be a war crime: Yes it would still be a war crime. I unfortunately saw a clip of the aftermath and there are dead children.
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Nov 3, 2023 19:58
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I accidentally saw video on Twitter. It was not good.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:03
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