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Red Bags. The USMC report said that the artillery in Syria and Iraq were all going to get dehabilitating TBIs because there were not enough gunners for the amount of fire missions they were asked to shoot. Their estimates were 100% lifelong acquired conditions after 2 weeks, at the tempo of operations they demanded. There's a paper on it and everything from the time.
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Nov 5, 2023 15:28
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The Pentagon is going to spend 300 million dollars investigating this strange new phenomenon just to end up inventing a new synonym for guilt.
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Nov 5, 2023 15:29
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Frosted Flake posted:Red Bags. why didnt they get more gunners
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Nov 5, 2023 15:29
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wait so does this mean all the israeli reservists are gonna be hosed up from all the artillery they'refiring?
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Nov 5, 2023 15:31
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fits my needs posted:why didnt they get more gunners Iirc the US promised to have as few boots on the ground as possible, which meant they didn't rotate out troops or spread the load, so each artillery battalion blew right past all of the health and safety guidelines for artillery operations as far as sleep, hearing loss, lead exposure and concussion symptoms go. According to one USMC medical report I read at the time, every single marine in the USMC artillery contingent was injured in some way and unable to return to operations afterwards.
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Nov 5, 2023 15:37
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Frosted Flake posted:Iirc the US promised to have as few boots on the ground as possible, which meant they didn't rotate out troops or spread the load, so each artillery battalion blew right past all of the health and safety guidelines for artillery operations as far as sleep, hearing loss, lead exposure and concussion symptoms go. According to one USMC medical report I read at the time, every single marine in the USMC artillery contingent was injured in some way and unable to return to operations afterwards. oh so for obama's honor? wow
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Nov 5, 2023 15:39
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Havanartillery Syndrome
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Nov 5, 2023 15:47
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It's deeply hilarious just how little western leaders care for anyone but themselves.
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Nov 5, 2023 15:51
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Orange Devil posted:It's deeply hilarious just how little western leaders care for anyone but themselves. imagine learning you got hosed up for life just because obama or trudeau or whatever rear end in a top hat wanted better optics or to save a few bucks
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Nov 5, 2023 15:54
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Gripweed posted:The Pentagon is going to spend 300 million dollars investigating this strange new phenomenon just to end up inventing a new synonym for guilt. trump: they signed up for it and he's right.txt
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Nov 5, 2023 16:17
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So my question upon reading the article : were similar problems reported by artillery crews who dealt with similar volumes of fire (WWII Soviet, any WWI belligerent, etc) ?
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Nov 5, 2023 16:20
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Real hurthling! posted:him and a pal went through the wire and over the lines but before they could get into town to see a lady, they come over a hill and theres a dozens of germans with white flags heading toward the lines begging them to escort them back That's like a skit come to life, hilarious Noosphere posted:So my question upon reading the article : were similar problems reported by artillery crews who dealt with similar volumes of fire (WWII Soviet, any WWI belligerent, etc) ? I'm curious about this as well, I'm guessing the answer is artillery was less powerful back then
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Nov 5, 2023 18:28
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I'm pretty sure in the past they just plainly had more artillery gunners between actually being able to mobilize millions of people and not having any of these fancy technology that reduce the need for people to operate it.
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Nov 5, 2023 18:33
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fits my needs posted:wait so does this mean all the israeli reservists are gonna be hosed up from all the artillery they'refiring? i would normally say no but considering how cowardly the israelis are, their batteries are definitely at maximum range from gaza as possible
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Nov 5, 2023 18:44
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Noosphere posted:So my question upon reading the article : were similar problems reported by artillery crews who dealt with similar volumes of fire (WWII Soviet, any WWI belligerent, etc) ? I would guess a combination of more dudes to rotate, lighter charges giving you TBIs slightly slower, and PTSD isn't real you pussy just drink and beat your wife like a real man
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Nov 5, 2023 19:20
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fits my needs posted:why didnt they get more gunners Artillery offered a lot of bang with hardly any U.S. boots on the ground. A battery with four howitzers and about 100 troops could deliver a torrent of fire, day or night, in any weather. But keeping the troop count to a bare minimum meant there would be no relief shifts. Each battery would have to do the work of many. “The people running this war made a choice,” said Lt. Col. Jonathan O’Gorman, a Marine officer who oversaw artillery operations in the offensive and now teaches strategy at the U.S. Naval War College, “and choices have consequences.” Alpha battery troops set up their big guns in March 2017 in a dirt field in Syria within sight of the enemy-controlled city of Raqqa and almost immediately started firing. They rarely stopped for the next two months. Night and day they hurled rounds, using some of the military’s most sophisticated cannons, M777A2 howitzers. The 35-foot-long guns had modern, precisely designed titanium parts and a digital targeting system, but when it came to protecting the crew the design had changed little in a century. Gun crews still worked within arm’s reach of the barrel and fired the gun by pulling a simple cord. The resulting blast was several times louder than a jet taking off, and unleashed a shock wave that hit the crews like a kick to the chest. Ears rang, bones shivered, vision blurred as eyeballs momentarily compressed, and a ripple shot through every neuron in the brain like a whipcrack. “You feel it in your core, you feel it in your teeth,” said Carson Brown, a corporal from Idaho who pulled the firing cord for hundreds of shots. “It’s like it takes a year off your life.” The relentless firing was being driven by a small, top-secret Army Delta Force group called Task Force 9. President Donald J. Trump had given the task force broad authority to use heavy firepower, and the task force applied it with savage enthusiasm, often bending the rules to hit not just enemy positions, but also mosques, schools, dams and power plants. Sometimes, artillery crew members said, the task force ordered them to fire in a grid pattern, not aiming at any specific target but simply hurling rounds toward Raqqa, to keep the enemy on edge. The military’s Central Command, which oversaw the task force, did not respond to requests for comment. The demands of Task Force 9 led to rates of artillery fire not seen in generations. During Operation Desert Storm in 1991, artillery crews fired an average of 70 rounds during the entire six-week campaign, said John Grenier, a historian at the Army’s Field Artillery School. During the initial months of the invasion of Iraq in 2003, crews fired an average of 260 rounds. In Syria, each gun in Alpha battery shot more than 1,100 rounds in two months — most of them using high-powered charges that produce the strongest shock waves. Some guns in Fox battery, which replaced Alpha, fired about 10,000 rounds each. “It’s shocking, insane,” Mr. Grenier said. e: sounds like they didnt think it would be a problem + didnt care if it would be a problem + too cheap to provide more batteries and soldiers to stagger firing shifts + everything is being run by loving psycho spec ops guys tatankatonk has issued a correction as of 19:25 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 5, 2023 19:23
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tatankatonk posted:Alpha battery troops set up their big guns in March 2017 in a dirt field in Syria within sight of the enemy-controlled city of Raqqa and almost immediately started firing. They rarely stopped for the next two months. The enemy here is ISIS
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Nov 5, 2023 19:30
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frosted flake what can you tell me about this gun 
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Nov 5, 2023 19:56
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So they turned their brains to jelly? Obama once again delivering subpar health outcomes.
Tankbuster has issued a correction as of 20:02 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 5, 2023 19:59
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Tankbuster posted:So they turned their brains to jelly? Obama once again delivering subpar health outcomes. so this is what the taliban did to ff...
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Nov 5, 2023 20:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:Havanartillery Syndrome
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Nov 5, 2023 20:59
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Megamissen posted:frosted flake what can you tell me about this gun I don’t know the model of this cannon but I’m sure Baloogan would make an offer on it
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Nov 5, 2023 21:01
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Allah Ackbar
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Nov 5, 2023 21:32
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Red bag charges are also going to be a lot more energenic, especially coupled with a 155mm gun, so it is simply putting more energy out on a constant basis that is rattling noggins. The Soviets were using a number of calibers during the war but 120mm seemed to be their most common gun which is just going to be less energetic than a 155mm and they didn't seem to be using the same doctrines The 152mm rounds the present-day Russian is using are probably are going to be about equal, but it is unclear how much they are boosting their propellent on a regular basis since they seem to be focused on consistent usage rather than wearing out their guns by trying to use them at maximum range.
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Nov 5, 2023 22:37
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FF has talked about this for close to a year now in bits and pieces so until hes off probe heres the biggest chunk i foundFrosted Flake posted:Being in the Bubble of red bags causes TBI, it’s not just hearing loss and tinnitus. People get pretty physically ill on the gunline with those charges. Red bags also have lead in them and cause the copper of the driving band to become particles in the air.
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Nov 5, 2023 22:49
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I thought I remembered stories back during Syria war heydays that the US was running low on pilots and flyable planes (maintenance backlog) and so had to rely on artillery more than they expected. My hometown is next to one of the few (or maybe only) still working US artillery schools and people that still live there have been talking for a decade or two of how little you hear the guns anymore. As annoying as the firing was (and depending on which side of town it could be loud as gently caress) the town itself is pretty dependent on being an army town so the base closing has always been a nervous rumor. I presume the US is training artillerists a lot less than they used to.
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Nov 6, 2023 00:14
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Welcome to modern artillery school. Everyone take a seat in the classroom behind your computer and double click on the "Arma 3" icon.
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Nov 6, 2023 01:34
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FuzzySlippers posted:My hometown is next to one of the few (or maybe only) still working US artillery schools I did not realize people born in Lawton ever learned how to read. Congrats!
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Nov 6, 2023 02:27
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frozenphil posted:I did not realize people born in Lawton ever learned how to read. Congrats!
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Nov 6, 2023 05:09
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frozenphil posted:I did not realize people born in Lawton ever learned how to read. Congrats! Only when I escaped. Geronimo's ghost as revenge prevents it within the city limits. Such a hosed city. It's bounded by an artillery range, a hotdog factory, and a tire factory (the hotdog factory smells the worst). Nearby are outsourced prisons from other states, munitions factory, some silos, oil pipelines/storage. When other states go nimby Oklahoma says please in my backyard since they don't have anything else. Of course, the history of the state is also hosed since it was like okay we've found the literally shittiest part of the country let's force all the Native Americans to live there. Then a bit later the gov was like nevermind we won't even let them have the lovely part and the stupid college mascot the Sooners celebrates this.
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Nov 6, 2023 05:15
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    The US will lose WW3 because they will run their artillerymen into the ground using "modern" "lean" personnel management techniques  Also, the M777 is responsible to a large degree, if you guys want to get into cannon-chat. The short explanation is a lightweight gun that relies on a muzzle break to avoid shaking itself to pieces and doesn't even have a shield offers no protection to the crew and is directing a lot of the blast back at them for the sake of the gun.  Writing off 20% of an artillery regiment for a day's work is not sustainable, btw. 
Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 14:45 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 14:32
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I know the thread anticipated this, but the "solutions" are all MIC grift:  Item number 3 will further reduce the number of gun crews because, less people, less injuries. It's loving insanity.
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Nov 6, 2023 14:59
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tatankatonk posted:Artillery offered a lot of bang with hardly any U.S. boots on the ground. A battery with four howitzers and about 100 troops could deliver a torrent of fire, day or night, in any weather. But keeping the troop count to a bare minimum meant there would be no relief shifts. Each battery would have to do the work of many. There's no way they have an intended target for most of these rounds, right? It's all just random firing while pretending it's precision targeting.
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Nov 6, 2023 15:02
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Not So Fast posted:There's no way they have an intended target for most of these rounds, right? It's all just random firing while pretending it's precision targeting. I always wondered how widespread this practice is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uXLzZyucI
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Nov 6, 2023 15:13
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so it's just as I'd surmised - all marines do have debilitating brain injuries!
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Nov 6, 2023 15:19
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Hatebag posted:so it's just as I'd surmised - all marines do have debilitating brain injuries! lol...
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Nov 6, 2023 15:22
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lol they're going to optimize for the metric of '#TBI's' rather than '% of gun operators who get a TBI'. Number go down so problem solved.
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Nov 6, 2023 15:27
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do the guns need to be so big they hurt you to shoot them or are they just that big cause the salesman got the the generals to think it was cool?
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Nov 6, 2023 15:39
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Not So Fast posted:There's no way they have an intended target for most of these rounds, right? It's all just random firing while pretending it's precision targeting. Well, policy is that we never fire unobserved. It's in all of the training material. "No battery commander shall..." etc. The reality is, that a lot of this stuff goes out the window immediately, and a cynical person would argue was never intended to be adhered to. Orange Devil posted:lol they're going to optimize for the metric of '#TBI's' rather than '% of gun operators who get a TBI'. 100%. As soon as I saw the solution to the problem caused by smaller gun crews to be ... small gun crews... yep. Real hurthling! posted:do the guns need to be so big they hurt you to shoot them or are they just that big cause the salesman got the the generals to think it was cool? See, guns and howitzers used to be two different weapons systems, with two distinct types of use, field and siege.  Field guns, used to be a smaller calibre, which allowed them to fire at that flatter, higher, velocity. Howitzers were larger in calibre, but higher in trajectory and lower in velocity. The classic American mix in WW2 was 105mm guns, 155mm howitzers. Field guns and some (field) howitzers were light, because they had to keep up with the infantry and armour, but because they were close to the edge of battle, did not require crazy range. There were divisional and corps guns and howitzers, the medium and heavy artillery, which had larger calibres and longer ranges, the 4.5 and 5.5 inch guns for us, the Long Tom 155mm guns for the Americans. In WW1 these were called Siege Artillery. They were extremely heavily built guns with big crews. In WW1 they couldn't be moved as single units, and were broken down into trainloads or multiple loads for horses, but by WW2, you could tow them with big trucks, with a second (or third) truck carrying the crew and other equipment. Above this were the really crazy 203mm and larger guns, but that's outside of the scope of the problem here. The important thing from a health and safety point of view is that the blast energy was mitigated in the field artillery by the gun either firing a smaller calibre projectile at a high velocity, or a larger calibre projectile at a lower velocity. Because field artillery was (is) exposed to enemy fire, the guns also had shields, which mitigate like 70% of the blast energy as well. The medium and heavy guns didn't have shields, but did have big crews, the crews usually fired from shelter, and they were not used for general duties but for specific tasks, and might have quite a bit of time in reserve. During the Cold War, the idea of self propelled guns was altered a bit because guns gained their SP mounts in kind of a top-down fashion, which is to say larger guns were given SP mounts first. By the 60's SP guns were nearly universally armoured, except for the largest 203mm and 175mm guns where that was purely for mobility. Now, as with gun shields, the protection from shell splinters also protected the crew from their own blast, it was extremely effective. This effectiveness led the Americans to ditch the (now almost unknown) M108 105mm  for the M109 155mm as their standard SP gun. The M109 initially had a short barrel, and was intended as a howitzer, not firing with max charges and not employed as a gun (flat velocity, long range)  However, in the 70's and 80's as we've talked about in the Ukraine thread, basically three developments happened at once: - All guns should be self-propelled and armoured (a universal form) - All guns should be gun-howitzers (a universal gun) - All guns should be 155mm, to use DPICM (a universal calibre) This meant that the M109 became the gun for NATO, receiving a much longer barrel, and red bags for the first time.  However, the crew was still very well protected from blast by the armour. In fact, the NBC protection that M109 received, anticipating the nuclear battlefield, including an overpressure system, further protected the crew from blast effects. Okay, cut to 1991. Mechanized equipment is expensive. M109 is based on the M113 hull, so is reaching the end of its automotive life, and no replacement is on the horizon. What about a lightweight towed gun? Well, if you remember your history, a lightweight gun that is also a medium calibre, and also a gun-howitzer is a tall order. This had been in development since the 1970's and kept tearing itself to pieces. It's just too much energy, even with the low-slung cradle design. This is M777. So what they did, was put a huge loving muzzle brake on it.  How a muzzle brake works is by redirecting energy that would strain the mount, laterally. Which is to say, towards the gun crew.  This is how you can build more lightweight guns. Now the problem is that it makes the flash and blast much larger, and widespread. Also, it compromises your bubble, the low-pressure area where the gun crew works. 
Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 16:17 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 15:44
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The issue seems to be the design requirements of the M577; in order to get its weight where you want it and its mobility (besides utilizing nitrogen and being generally more fragile), it doesn't have a shield and has a massive muzzle break to redirect the blast...back to its own operators. This is compounded by red-bag charges. Basically, liberal governments (particularly the US) pushed a lightweight, mobile, and low personnel artillery corps to such an extreme it is eating up its own personnel. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 16:19 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 16:17
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