Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

I love cathedrals. They're not really the thing in my strain of Christianity so they feel very novel whenever I see one!

Killingyouguy! posted:

Well, I did it. I finished the Bible. Lotta stuff in there!

Congrats!

# ? Oct 28, 2023 04:58

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:38

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

GAG that absolutely rules thank you so much for posting that!

# ? Oct 28, 2023 05:09

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

That is a powerful chorch, thank you for the photos! Your own work?
e: I'm literate I swear, I see they are. Very nice, it seems very well lit - I'm curious how much of that is natural light.

Killingyouguy! posted:

Well, I did it. I finished the Bible. Lotta stuff in there!

Which part was your favorite?

# ? Oct 28, 2023 05:41

Killingyouguy!: Sep 8, 2014

Thanks! It was a long journey and I'll be glad to read something else, but I felt I couldn't give up. I'm going to take a break then at some point I'll read the Quran

Nessus posted:

Which part was your favorite?

Jacob getting tricked into marrying Leah and Leah having like six kids, each time being like 'maybe Jacob will love me now

' and then Rachel is barren so she's like 'gently caress my maid' and then Leah is not to be outdone so she's like 'gently caress my maid too!!' and then God loves this so much (???) that Rachel is made no longer barren. And at no point does Rachel stop being the favourite
That or Rachel hiding the stolen idol by sitting on it and being like 'can't move! Perioding!'

Also in Corinthians when Paul is like 'one of you is sleeping with his father's wife? You gotta stop'

# ? Oct 28, 2023 12:51

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

Take the time to listen to Qur'an chanted correctly, when you get to it. I don't know how exactly I would structure that with a reading of a translation but it is absolutely beautiful and a core part of the experience.

# ? Oct 28, 2023 13:36

Killingyouguy!: Sep 8, 2014

Ohtori Akio posted:

Take the time to listen to Qur'an chanted correctly, when you get to it. I don't know how exactly I would structure that with a reading of a translation but it is absolutely beautiful and a core part of the experience.

Yeah, the app I got will play them for you. Not sure if I'll be doing that on transit but I'll make time for it

# ? Oct 28, 2023 13:50

Goons Are Gifts: Jan 1, 1970

Nessus posted:

That is a powerful chorch, thank you for the photos! Your own work?

Yes, I was nearby and thought, I could give a short tour! I live nearby and was walking next to it, as was going the bank, so I thought, maybe someone wants to see it!

# ? Oct 29, 2023 12:14

LITERALLY A BIRD: Sep 27, 2008; I knew you were trouble
when you flew in

It and your photography of it is gorgeous, thank you so much

I visited Spain several years ago and that was my first time encountering big ancient cathedrals like that. They moved me to tears. The amount of history and intense love that radiated from every structure... beautiful, nothing like it.

# ? Oct 29, 2023 14:42

Squizzle: Apr 24, 2008

Worthleast posted:

All of them were written by Paula though.

In translation to Latin.

they werent even all written by paul!!!!

# ? Oct 29, 2023 15:03

Goons Are Gifts: Jan 1, 1970

LITERALLY A BIRD posted:

It and your photography of it is gorgeous, thank you so much I visited Spain several years ago and that was my first time encountering big ancient cathedrals like that. They moved me to tears. The amount of history and intense love that radiated from every structure... beautiful, nothing like it.

LAB!! I'm so happy to see you! We didnt talk in ages! I hope you are doing good, I missed you! :glomp:

I agree, I find these kind of structures just stunning, to say the least. Its fascinating to me to see people from all beliefs and any origin to come here and visit our cathedral and everyone, even young teenagers from another religion that tend to be focused on looking cool and edgy show respect and stand in awe when looking at these things. It's really amazing and I feel very privileged to live nearby this beautiful thing, so I wanted to share this privilege with my goon pals

# ? Oct 29, 2023 16:51

LITERALLY A BIRD: Sep 27, 2008; I knew you were trouble
when you flew in

Goons Ate Goatse posted:

LAB!! I'm so happy to see you! We didnt talk in ages! I hope you are doing good, I missed you!
I agree, I find these kind of structures just stunning, to say the least. Its fascinating to me to see people from all beliefs and any origin to come here and visit our cathedral and everyone, even young teenagers from another religion that tend to be focused on looking cool and edgy show respect and stand in awe when looking at these things. It's really amazing and I feel very privileged to live nearby this beautiful thing, so I wanted to share this privilege with my goon pals

hey GaG! I have missed you too :lovebird:

it is a delight to see you, truly. You are a person whose presence alone brightens a space, let alone when you come bearing beautiful photography :allears:

thank you again for sharing. I am glad to report I am doing well -- I hope that the same is the case for you 💖

I wanted to try to return the photography favor but could only find a few interior photos of one cathedral I visited... I would have sworn I had more and some exterior pictures too.

I did not really do it justice, alas. I think this building was unrelated, but pretty, so it will be included

# ? Oct 29, 2023 22:14

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

they post interesting articles on this blog sometimes. Thought some folks here might enjoy this.
Religion and Humor: An Unorthodox Relationship?

publicorthodoxy.org posted:

To say that religion and humor make for strange bedfellows may be stating the obvious! Yet one cannot escape the other; they are �mutually attracting phenomena� (Schweizer 2020, p.162). According to Christian writer and philosopher G. K. Chesterton, �Life is serious all the time, but living cannot be. You may have all the solemnity you wish in choosing your neckties, but in anything important such as death, sex, and religion, you must have mirth or you will have madness.� (as cited by Terry Lindvall, 2015). Institutional religion and religious dogma leave no room for ambiguity since they are founded on absolute moral truths, certainty of belief and conformity to a higher spiritual authority and order. In contrast, humor thrives on ambiguity and transgression, on pushing boundaries, on challenging and questioning social norms and moral truths. Unlike the somewhat universal appeal of religious faiths and religious beliefs and in contrast to laughter, which is part of human nature, humor does not universally translate well across time and space. Something that was funny a few years, decades, or centuries ago will not necessarily have the same comic appeal or be viewed as funny today. Humor is also relative and culturally embedded so it is very personal. We laugh together but we laugh at different things. Like beauty, humor is in the eye of the beholder, as Sister Vassa Larin points out in her podcast on religion and humor (Episode 106, 16 February 2017).

Despite these fundamental differences, religion and humor both have a �redemptive value� (Ingvild Saelid Gilhus, as cited in Gardner 2020, p. 162), especially laughter, in dealing with the incongruities of life and the human experience (Berger 2014). Just as religion offers a spiritually comforting sense of certainty in a chaotic world, humor offers a light-hearted comedic approach in trying to make sense of the world. Religion and humor both hold a great deal of power, positive and negative. Just as the force of religious conviction and belief cannot be overestimated, �within a well-delivered joke lies power,� as the late US comedian Dick Gregory aptly said in 2017. They both have a great potential to magnify differences and inflame sensitivities but also to express frustration in a more nuanced way and help defuse tension. Religion and humor can help us disengage from our own problems and prompt us to go beyond the bubble of our everyday reality. They invite us to think about the world in a different way. Religion and humor are both relational and community-based: a religious idea and a joke can each foster mutual understanding, help build bridges, maintain our connection to others and increase a sense of community. But inversely religion and humor can also exclude and belittle the �other,� legitimize and sanction prejudice, implicitly or explicitly, and thus magnify differences, tear people apart and divide.

What seems to prevail is a highly cautionary and suspicious view when religion and humor intersect, not least because of the legal and sometimes violent conflicts that have erupted over various forms of humor crossing religious boundaries. Accusations of blasphemy[1] have been triggered after joking and laughing about religion that has been perceived as inappropriate and offensive. We mention here the fierce backlash of only two well-publicized cases after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons and the release of the comedic film Life of Brian by Monty Python. Such conflicts have questioned the limits of freedom of expression, especially as it pertains to religious sensitivities, and have solidified the view that religion and humor are incompatible.

The Intersections of Religion and Humor

Given the fraught relationship between them, why should we look at the intersections of religion and humor? To start with, as humor studies scholar Christie Davies aptly said, �Jokes are a thermometer� (2001, p. 300); they reveal prevalent social, cultural and political attitudes and moods. Religion and humor intersect in various ways and in different domains and this raises a series of questions. First is the question of whether there is humor (and its corollaries of laughter, lightheartedness, etc.) in sacred texts, including the Bible. Related to that is the question of whether humor can be found in the world�s religions, including in religious texts, the sacraments, religious practices and lived religion, that is in the different ways believers and clergy engage with, practice, express and communicate religion in everyday life. Second is the question of what impact religious affiliation and religiosity may have on humor creation (making a joke and having a sense of humor) and appreciation (understanding and laughing at a joke) which is shaped by a variety of factors, such as one�s world view and beliefs, including religious beliefs. The work of Vasilis Saroglou and others on humor creation as well as Karl-Heinz Ott and Bernard Schweizer on humor appreciation offer some interesting reflections. Third is the question of religious humor, i.e. humor about religion including joking and laughing about religious figures, sacred texts, religious practices and religious believers. We will primarily look at the first and the third question.

Related to the first question of whether humor can be found in religion and in sacred texts is also the issue of whether we can observe relevant patterns and differences in the comic visions of the world�s religions. Are certain religious traditions more open to humor and its corollaries (e.g. laughter, merriment, cheerfulness)? John Morreall�s analysis in Comedy, Tragedy and Religion (1999)compares in somewhat binary terms the comic and the tragic dimensions of Eastern and Western religious traditions. To push this thinking further we also have to consider how sacred texts have been interpreted across several centuries to produce a variety of visions and attitudes towards humor at different times and in different socio-cultural, political and religious contexts (Gardner 2020). Eastern religious traditions, including Buddhism (as is often exemplified by images of a laughing Dalai Lama) and Hinduism, but also Confucianism and Taoism, seem to inherently appreciate comic laughter and be particularly imbued with what Morreall calls �anti-tragic� visions and �pro-comic� features. As we move into the realm of the Western monotheistic religions, there is a broader range of anti-tragic/pro-comic and pro-tragic/anti-comic features. In Judaism, humor features in the Talmud itself but more importantly it has also functioned as a political and psychological coping mechanism of resistance and survival in the vicissitudes of the Jewish people. In Islam, while the tragic and comic visions may not be present explicitly, there are distinct principles on permissible types of humor, joking and laughter; yet the comedic and satirical practices in the Muslim world and its restrictions vary across Islamic contexts according to different religious sensibilities, social norms, political regimes and legal frameworks.

In Christianity, the range of anti-tragic/pro-comic and pro-tragic/anti-comic seems to be very diverse across the variety of Christian strands (Catholicism, the Protestant churches, Orthodox Christianity, etc.). In terms of the presence of humor in the scriptures, the prevalent view is that humor and its corollary, laughter, but also sarcasm, can be found in many passages of the Old and New Testament, as several religious (theologians) and secular scholars have demonstrated, including Rev. James Martin, S.J., Bernard Schweizer, Terry Lindvall, Ingvild Saelid Gilhus, and Sister Vassa Larin. The Christian view of humor and the �theology of laughter� that has taken shape since the second half of the 20th century, rests on five basic principles, outlined by Bernard Schweizer in his volume Christianity and the Triumph of Humor: �Christianity has a long and regretful history of denunciations of laughter; humor plays a vital role in the life of the faithful and Christians should not curb their laughter; laughter is a gift from God since it is equivalent to joy, and joy is a divine attribute; the Bible is replete with humor and God has a sense of humor; and there a two kinds of laughter morally good and bad laughter, or �positive� and �negative� laughter� (Schweizer 2020, p. 31).

As Sister Vassa Larin recently pointed out during our informal conversation a couple of months after the 2023 IOTA conference in Volos, lightheartedness and humor are both divine qualities. Arguably, the resurrection is God�s ultimate and �most extravagant joke� and can be considered as an archetypal Christian joke albeit with an underlying profoundly positive message: the triumph of life over death, of good over evil (Donnelly 1992, p. 1). Moreover, the early Christian risus paschalis tradition of so-called �Easter laughter�, which also features in the Greek Orthodox tradition on Easter Monday when jokes and humorous stories are exchanged as part of the joy of Easter celebrations, stands in contrast to the serious and solemn spirit leading up to Easter.� Yet, if God�s sense of humor does not always stand the test of time, the humorous and sarcastic passages in the Old and New Testament are not necessarily funny (or even appropriate) today, they are concrete examples of the type of humor that can be found in the Christian scriptures.

Even though it is a work of fiction with multiple levels of analysis especially about questions of truth, Umberto Eco�s novel, The Name of the Rose, provides a few pointers on Christian Medieval theological interpretations of the meaning of laughter. According to the story, the Benedictine abbey�s eldest and most learned blind monk Jorge de Burgos rejects that Jesus ever laughed and the idea of laughter all together as �weakness and corruption� (p. 507) that prevents man from accepting the idea of a single and unquestionable truth. He thus laces with poison the pages of Aristotle�s second Poetics book with his views on laughter in an attempt to eliminate laughter by eliminating the book itself (Donnelly 1992).

Since Medieval times and in contrast to such views, contemporary �Christianity has yielded, more or less willingly, to the forces of humor� (Schweizer 2020, p. 164). In his book, Bernard Schweizer provides an in-depth overview of numerous contemporary examples of humor, including irreverent humor, about Western Christianity. Especially in Western Europe and North America, there are countless examples of contemporary genres of humor, including comedy and cartoons, making jokes that target Christian faith, practices, believers and clergy. Yet, there seem to be few cases of recent large-scale public outcries and backlash or formal accusations of blasphemy and when those instances do take place, they are usually initiated locally by certain religious and political conservative groups.

Humor and Orthodox Christianity

In comparison to Catholicism and the various strands of Protestantism in the West, is there a distinctly Orthodox stance on laughter and vision of humor? One could claim Orthodox humorlessness precisely because Orthodox Christianity and humor seem to make strange or unorthodox bedfellows given the Orthodox faith�s foundational stance as a faith that follows and conforms to a more original, true and authentic Christian dogma and practice. This Christian Orthodox claim to authenticity suggests a degree of seriousness, coupled with a certain reluctance to change with the times. This outlook also suggests a probable incompatibility with humor, joking and laughing about religion. The presumed Orthodox lack of openness or resistance towards humor can also be substantiated by the regressive current of moral conservatism, focused on preserving traditional family values against the perceived growing threat of secularization, that seems to have taken hold in the last two decades. This critical development also encompasses cultural aspects that seem to further strengthen the Orthodox traditionalist ethno-nationalist downturn that began in the 2010s. In the current culture wars, Russia is at the helm and aspires to be a moral leader for Christian moral conservatists around the globe, as Kristina Stoeckl and Dmitry Uzlaner discuss in their book The Moralist International. Russia in the Global Culture Wars. Yet,issues of biology (i.e. procreation and sex), marriage and family values, which have become the key litmus tests of the Orthodox faith against the morally corrupt values of the West, seem to overlook the fact that the same western values of human rights that are so vilified, were conceived and founded and are deeply immersed in Christian values, as Sister Vassa Larin pointed out during our recent conversation.

Yet, Orthodox Christianity is not a monolithic bloc. It is important to distinguish at least the Orthodox diaspora (including those who are cultural or nominally Orthodox, thus who identify with the faith and its cultural traditions but are not necessarily religious) from the mostly, but not exclusively, ethno-nationalist Orthodoxy of traditionally Orthodox majority home countries, as Father Dragos Herescu distinguished during the IOTA conference in 2023.

Sister Vassa Larin, who belongs to the ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia), also known as ROCA (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad), and her personal trajectory is a case in point. During our conversation, she expanded on her initial light-hearted and humorous comment that Orthodox Christians tend to be dead serious when they talk or teach about matters of faith. As a priest�s daughter having always been around lots of priests, bishops, and other clergy, she observed that they all joke and laugh quite a lot. Presumably there are members of the Orthodox clergy and Orthodox theologians and advocates who use some form of humor in their work and mission. But when it comes to giving a sermon or teaching catechism or speaking publicly about faith-related matters, Orthodox monastics or clergymen tend to be dead serious. Sister Vassa did not believe that the dead seriousness of Orthodox discourse was conducive to the mission work she wanted to engage in after her decision to leave academia. She wanted to share the light of the Orthodox faith and be inside the world, rather than inside a monastic community. She began her work on online mission, initially on YouTube, where she embraced a �theology with a smile�. Her black religious habit acted as an obstacle so she also used humor, including self-deprecating humor, to be able to come across as more accessible, less severe, and thus build bridges in order to connect with the audiences she wanted to reach and negotiate her unique position in the Orthodox community. Using humor she fashioned a �parody of herself� with her black religious habit, as illustrated in her Orthodox comic strip from a few years ago, The Adventures of Sister V and Crew. Overall, she has received both positive feedback and negative pushback, including the comment that she was �unhinged�; �I am not a door�, she aptly and responded humorously! Sister Vassa is not the only Orthodox liturgiologist, scholar and author to use humor in her online mission work of catechism and religious education through her platform Coffee with Sister Vassa.

So, how does humor about religion fare within Orthodox Christianity? There is no official Orthodox stance or pronouncement on humor and on what constitutes permissible or sanctioned forms of humor, as is also the case in Christianity as a whole. This, however, does not negate the fact that there are Christian views, including presumably some Orthodox assumptions, on what constitutes good, soft, positive or tasteful humor and laughter that �build up,� that �expose cant and hypocricy� (similar to what is called �punching up� humor in humor studies) versus bad, hard, negative or tasteless humor and laughter that �tear down,� that �belittle the marginalized� (�punching down� humor), as articulated by Rev. James Martin, S.J. in his book Between Heaven and Mirth (2011, p. 23). The subversive and transgressive figure and religious archetype of the holy fool (yurodivy or iurodivyi in Russian) in Russian Orthodox Christianity is relevant here. The idea of holly foolishness originates in ancient Eastern Christianity, Byzantium and Medieval Russian Orthodoxy where it survives to this day with contemporary figures of holy fools. In Russian literature, the figures of Bishop Tikhon and Abba Zosima in Dostoevsky�s Demons and Brothers Karamazov seems to represent and capture some key character attributes as the speaker of unwanted insights reminding us that �self-conscious holiness can�t be holiness,� as Rowan Williams aptly shows. The figure of the holy fool pretends publicly to be an unruly stupid and insane fool who crosses the boundaries of social conventions (just as a modern comedian would do today). According to Sergey A. Ivanov�s pioneering volume on the subject, holy fools lead a secular and socially embedded life that appears ordinary and yet they pretend to be insane fools inviting public ridicule. Turning the traditional concept of a saint on its head, behind the apparent foolish madness hide the gifts of humility, revelation, prophecy,�allegiance to God and to the truth of the gospel, thus inner sanctity and spiritual insight.

The Question of Blasphemy

Blasphemy is a useful lens through which to examine attitudes towards religious humor. If we look at contemporary Russia the picture that emerges is one of a highly restrictive environment for religious humor and freedom of speech more generally. This is partly due to Russia�s anti-blasphemy laws and legislation making it illegal to insult the religious sensibilities of believers or offend religious institutions, namely the Orthodox Church. Indicative examples include stand-up comedian Alexander Dolgopolov who in 2020 was formally investigated and had to temporarily flee Russia after making jokes about the Virgin Mary and Jesus. There have also been incidents of social media users facing criminal action for religiously themed posts, images and memes that satirize religion and the Orthodox Church. For example, according to a BBC report, Maria Motuznaya, Daniil Markin, and Andrei Shasherin each separately posted several memes and images with religious themes and were subsequently accused and charged of hate speech, insulting believers� religious feelings and discrediting the Orthodox Church. In 2021, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov reportedly stated that: �You can�t joke about what is sacred for the Russian people, you can�t joke about the war, you can�t joke about religion, you can�t joke about�well, about some very, very heroic, but painful pages of our history [�] everything else is up for making jokes, but elegant and nice ones,�

The Case of Greece

Against the current situation in Russia and through the blasphemy lens, Greece presents an interesting case. The affair of the Father Pastitsios Facebook page was a turning point in Greece�s blasphemy legal regime which targeted anyone who was critical of the Orthodox Church or of religion in general and placed restrictions on the freedom of expression thus raising concerns over self-censorship. In 2012, Philippos Loizos (at the time, in his late twenties) created a Facebook page that parodied the Greek Orthodox monk Elder or Father Paisios who is revered as a prophet and believed by many Orthodox Greeks to have performed numerous miracles and prophecies; he was canonized as a saint after his death in 1994. Loizos used a play on words to change the monk�s name from Father Paisios to Father Pastitsios the Pastafarian after the popular Greek pasta dish pastitsio. He posted images showing Father Paisios� face covered in the pasta dish and the pasta-shaped dreadlocked hair of Rastafarians, inspired by Pastafarianism, also known as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.[2]

Loizos� aim was to satirize the unquestioning worship of Father Paisios, who, as he claimed, represented anti-western, xenophobic and intolerant ideas and was linked to derogatory statements on women. He also wanted to expose the gullibility of blind faith and worship. Even though the Greek Orthodox Church remained officially silent, several conservative Orthodox groups and individual citizens mounted a public mobilization campaign. Following about 100,000 complaints, Father Pastitsios� Facebook page was reported to Facebook. An official motion was submitted to the Greek Directorate for the Prosecution of Electronic Crime ordering the suspension of confidentiality in order to obtain from Facebook the details of the owner of the Facebook page. Representatives of the far-right group Golden Dawn also tabled a question in Parliament and Loizos was ordered to suspend the Facebook page which he did. Yet, Loizos was subsequently arrested on the charge of malicious blasphemy and religious offence. He went on trial in January 2014 and was sentenced to four months imprisonment but was acquitted in 2017 after appeal. In this case it was ultra-conservative (far-right) political and Orthodox groups, rather than the Greek Orthodox Church, that mobilized and proclaimed themselves as guardians of Greece�s Orthodox values, pressuring the state to take legal action against the creator of the Pastitsios Facebook page.

Another incident took place in 2013 when Greek artist Dionysis Kavalieratos was charged on blasphemy charges, again. filed by an ultra-conservative Orthodox group whose religious sensibilities were offended by three Christian-themed sketches that were on display in a private Athens art gallery. The artist was acquitted, partly because the exhibition where the offensive cartoons were displayed was a private and not a public space.

As Effie Fokas and Panayote Dimitras (Greek Helsinki Monitor) highlighted, a unique feature in the Loizos case was the application of Greece�s blasphemy law and the fact that the Facebook page creator did not commit an act of blasphemy against Orthodox Christianity or the Greek Orthodox Church and its members. Rather, he satirized and parodied an individual religious figure. The case was important because it helped accelerate the Greek campaign of the international End Blasphemy Laws movement to decriminalize blasphemy and revoke such legislation. In December 2019, as part of an overhaul of Greece�s criminal code, the law on blasphemy (Articles 198 and 199 of the Penal Code) was dropped. The Greek Orthodox Church and public outcries from certain conservative milieus have argued that preserving an amended blasphemy legislation (with a penalty of imprisonment of up to two years for maliciously insulting the Greek Orthodox Church or any other religion) would help safeguard the religious sentiments of believers and help protect the rights of religious minorities in Greece. Although unlikely, it remains to be seen if an amended blasphemy legislation may be introduced at some later stage.

An interesting contrast to the two blasphemy cases mentioned above is the case of humorous cartoons about religion that are regularly published in Greek newspapers even when the blasphemy legislation was still in effect. Greek humor studies researcher Vily Tsakona conducted in 2004-2005 an analysis of 250 religious cartoons, drawn from mainstream newspapers, about religion and the Orthodox Church of Greece, as well as political issues and political figures with explicit religious references. Yet, these cartoons did not provoke any public outcries in the name of blasphemy. As Tsakona argues, �religious cartoons are not by definition considered offensive or blasphemous; their uptake depends on the social context of their production and consumption� (p. 262). Greek cartoons often satirize clerics for their political entanglements and behaviors, politicians for their religious posturing when it suits their political agendas and often ordinary citizens as part of ongoing public discussions about political, social and religious issues. Yet, the cartoonists do not seem to push the boundaries of social and political criticism beyond what is socially permitted. �Cartoonists seem to strike a balance between voicing dissent with authority, respecting norms on the limits of humor and avoiding censorship by the media� (Tsakona 2011, p. 262). Since religion is accepted as part of Greece�s political reality and social fabric, cartoonists do not typically push the boundaries to the point of contesting Orthodoxy as the accepted system of beliefs, practices and moral values. This suggests that the relation between humor, religion and politics, at least for now, seems to be one of symbiosis that reflects the connection and the established norms between the Greek Orthodox Church, state and society. Given the repeal of the blasphemy law in 2019, it remains to be seen whether in the future the boundaries of this symbiotic relationship will be pushed further by cartoonists, other humorists and artists in Greece�s new reality.

Concluding Reflections

Even if the Orthodox Christian faith can appear humorless and the Christian Orthodox world a religious and cultural sphere that is lacking a sense of lightheartedness and humor, the situation on the ground is more nuanced. Humor and its corollaries, including laughter, are present and manifest themselves in different degrees and in various contexts, including especially in the ways Christian Orthodoxy is practiced and lived individually around the world.

Even if there are no official Christian Orthodox pronouncements on permissible types of humor, joking and laughter, the application of anti-blasphemy laws and practices of censorship remain a reality. Yet the situation on the ground is far from uniform, just as there are many different ways in which Orthodox Christians practice and live their religion in Orthodox contexts or among the Orthodox diaspora. Humor practices and humor restrictions vary across Orthodox contexts and nations and depend on different political regimes and legal frameworks, religious sensibilities, and social-cultural norms. Further research in this field can be very promising and yield thought-provoking and fascinating answers on the different ways in which humor and laughter feature in Orthodox Christian practices and mission work.�

[1] According to S. Brent Plate (2006, p. 60) blasphemy is about �impure crossings from one side of the sacred-profane divide to the other; about juxtaposing the sacred and the profane in times and places where they are expected to be kept separate; of twisting the profane so that it appears sacred, or making the sacred appear profane.�
[2] The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was a parody of religion created in 2005 in protest at the decision by the Kansas State Board of Education to require the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in the state�s public schools.

[Bibliography in article]

# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:53

Neon Noodle: Nov 11, 2016; there's nothing wrong here in montana

ever heard of the Jews

# ? Oct 30, 2023 18:27

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Neon Noodle posted:

ever heard of the Jews

Maybe� who�s asking

# ? Oct 30, 2023 19:13

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

Hi Religion Thread. Long time agnostic here who has recently had a kind of religious awakening on a very personal level. I expressed interest in my local Episcopal church and have a meeting with the Reverend there tomorrow, as he wanted to meet me. I am going to attend my first regular service on Sunday.

I come from a mish mashy background of southern Pentacostals (no snakes) some of which became Baptists but none of whom were really super church-going. Never baptized, but I believe I do want this.

Anyone who can give me some guidance or ideas of what to expect? I chose this church not only because of proximity but because the Episcopals seem to have the same sense of justice that I do and are supportive of LGBTQ people as well as the fact that I think liturgical ceremony is nice.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 22:55

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

NomChompsky posted:

Hi Religion Thread. Long time agnostic here who has recently had a kind of religious awakening on a very personal level. I expressed interest in my local Episcopal church and have a meeting with the Reverend there tomorrow, as he wanted to meet me. I am going to attend my first regular service on Sunday.

I come from a mish mashy background of southern Pentacostals (no snakes) some of which became Baptists but none of whom were really super church-going. Never baptized, but I believe I do want this.

Anyone who can give me some guidance or ideas of what to expect? I chose this church not only because of proximity but because the Episcopals seem to have the same sense of justice that I do and are supportive of LGBTQ people as well as the fact that I think liturgical ceremony is nice.

They're going to do communion. You don't have to take it if you feel like it's not appropriate. The hymns will be new to you. Coffee hour should be a good time.

Other than that, just do what everyone else is doing.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 23:23

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

NomChompsky posted:

Hi Religion Thread. Long time agnostic here who has recently had a kind of religious awakening on a very personal level. I expressed interest in my local Episcopal church and have a meeting with the Reverend there tomorrow, as he wanted to meet me. I am going to attend my first regular service on Sunday.

I come from a mish mashy background of southern Pentacostals (no snakes) some of which became Baptists but none of whom were really super church-going. Never baptized, but I believe I do want this.

Anyone who can give me some guidance or ideas of what to expect? I chose this church not only because of proximity but because the Episcopals seem to have the same sense of justice that I do and are supportive of LGBTQ people as well as the fact that I think liturgical ceremony is nice.

Catholic, but relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvhYqeGp_Do

# ? Nov 1, 2023 23:27

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011

Ohtori Akio posted:

They're going to do communion. You don't have to take it if you feel like it's not appropriate. The hymns will be new to you. Coffee hour should be a good time.

Other than that, just do what everyone else is doing.

I just googled this because I was curious, and the official Episcopalian stance is that the unbaptized shouldn't receive communion. Of course it varies parish-to-parish.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 23:29

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

Civilized Fishbot posted:

I just googled this because I was curious, and the official Episcopalian stance is that the unbaptized shouldn't receive communion. Of course it varies parish-to-parish.

Yes, this is where "open" and "closed" communion gets hard to discuss online - does "closed" mean "only the baptized", "only the members of this denomination", or "only the members of this congregation who are known to me"? If someone is insisting that only open communion is Biblical, do they mean "you shouldn't require guests to identify themselves to you" or do they mean "you shouldn't expect guests to have ever darkened the door of a Christian gathering before"?

# ? Nov 1, 2023 23:34

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

Yeah I was trying to speak in an encompassing way there. I have attended an Episcopal service where communion was offered to me by someone who knew I was unbaptized, and I declined, because in my view it wouldn't be right. Nobody's gonna make a big deal about it either way, but it's something to decide on before you attend (and bring before the priest when you chat).

# ? Nov 1, 2023 23:44

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

efb but yeah talk to the priest about Communion, you probably shouldn't partake until you're baptized but the priest will be able to provide better guidance. he can give you more specifics on what to expect but people are gonna be super excited and welcoming

you should expect to be doted upon by a bunch of little old church ladies. this isn't an Episcopal thing it's just a Church thing in general. the elderly church ladies love visitors and they will insist on making sure you eat a bunch of stuff with coffee after the service

# ? Nov 1, 2023 23:47

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

NomChompsky posted:

Hi Religion Thread. Long time agnostic here who has recently had a kind of religious awakening on a very personal level. I expressed interest in my local Episcopal church and have a meeting with the Reverend there tomorrow, as he wanted to meet me. I am going to attend my first regular service on Sunday.

I come from a mish mashy background of southern Pentacostals (no snakes) some of which became Baptists but none of whom were really super church-going. Never baptized, but I believe I do want this.

Anyone who can give me some guidance or ideas of what to expect? I chose this church not only because of proximity but because the Episcopals seem to have the same sense of justice that I do and are supportive of LGBTQ people as well as the fact that I think liturgical ceremony is nice.

That's awesome! I hope you have a good conversation with the priest, Episcopalians are super cool, especially if you like "high church" liturgy.

As for what to expect, the priest is going to ask about your faith journey. It's not going to be a sales pitch, if you're concerned about that. Ok well maybe a little bit but the whole idea is that they want to make sure that you and the community are on the same page. They'll talk about what it means to be Christian in general and Episcopalian specifically because they want you joining to be a good experience and that you don't expect something from them that they can't deliver and vice versa.

The priest will also talk with you about what they can do to help you grow in your faith. So I'm sure they'll talk with you about how adult baptism works and about new member education. I can't speak to Episcopalians specifically but generally there's a small amount of prep for a baptism, basically making sure that you understand what is happening and what you're saying. Baptisms, especially adult baptisms, are some of the most joyous services a church can hold, so don't be nervous, the whole idea behind it is that it's not something you're doing on your own. It's a communal event where the congregation stands up and offers to help you.

No one is going to expect you to have everything figured out, or even anything figured out about your beliefs. As long as you like what they're saying, are willing to learn, and want to be a part of what they're doing, they'll be more than happy to teach you. The hallmark of a good church is that they're happy to answer questions, so don't be afraid to ask things. Everyone starts somewhere!

# ? Nov 2, 2023 00:26

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

Thank you for the responses, I am aware of the communion rules and to this point in my life I have avoided doing it in services I have attended anyway, knowing that I am unbaptized. As said in the thread, I don't feel it right to do so. I have read that in the Episcopal church that becoming baptized, though, requires finding a sponsor, and in his brief email to me asking if I would be interested in having a further conversation in person or over the phone, the priest did mention to me that deciding if baptism is right for me is something done best in the community, much as anything else, since no one is Christian alone. A sentiment I appreciate.

Azathoth posted:

That's awesome! I hope you have a good conversation with the priest, Episcopalians are super cool, especially if you like "high church" liturgy.

As for what to expect, the priest is going to ask about your faith journey. It's not going to be a sales pitch, if you're concerned about that. Ok well maybe a little bit but the whole idea is that they want to make sure that you and the community are on the same page. They'll talk about what it means to be Christian in general and Episcopalian specifically because they want you joining to be a good experience and that you don't expect something from them that they can't deliver and vice versa.

The priest will also talk with you about what they can do to help you grow in your faith. So I'm sure they'll talk with you about how adult baptism works and about new member education. I can't speak to Episcopalians specifically but generally there's a small amount of prep for a baptism, basically making sure that you understand what is happening and what you're saying. Baptisms, especially adult baptisms, are some of the most joyous services a church can hold, so don't be nervous, the whole idea behind it is that it's not something you're doing on your own. It's a communal event where the congregation stands up and offers to help you.

No one is going to expect you to have everything figured out, or even anything figured out about your beliefs. As long as you like what they're saying, are willing to learn, and want to be a part of what they're doing, they'll be more than happy to teach you. The hallmark of a good church is that they're happy to answer questions, so don't be afraid to ask things. Everyone starts somewhere!

I appreciate this as well, and something I intend to let him know if I can is that while my initial message may have sounded kind of jumpy, that I am generally a person who approaches everything with dedication and an open mind to what I don't know. I know that if it is my wish to be a Christian that I must learn to be one. I am excited though. I haven't talked about this with anyone in my family because faith to me is something I feel is kind of private, and I also wanted to follow my own path on this rather than get a lot of "Well you should try MY church out."

# ? Nov 2, 2023 01:15

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

awesome, sounds like you're coming at this very much the right way then. as always :justpost:

this is a very chill and supportive crew and we'd love to hear about your journey as much as you care to share.

also sounds like the church/denomination is a good fit for you, hopefully the congregation is as well!

how do you feel about lace, silly hats, and incense?

edit: and yeah. most denominations require you to at least undergo the ritual drowning initiation rite before you're allowed to eat God

Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Nov 2, 2023

# ? Nov 2, 2023 01:36

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

All of those things are cool, I am down with lace and smoke and I have always loved funny hats.

My own journey so far really isn't that crazy. I was brought up basically without any real Bible study aside from Sunday school and my grandma telling me lots as a kid that "God will snatch the breath out of you." to make me behave. He didn't, so I guess I was good?

In my teenage and early twenties years I raged against religion but still found solace in a kind of...vague spirituality? This year I started meditating, and that was an interesting thing to start doing that actually helped me center myself a lot. I started reconnecting with people and getting out in the world once again, and found that I liked having love in my life from others. Meditation taught me that there's a central me inside that is separate from a lot of the other drama and stuff I get myself caught up in worrying about.

But my experiences recently involved a lot of personal loss in my life after a period of a kind of malaise, and recently while meditating during some grief I felt a very odd sensation of comfort, serenity, and boundless love. It wasn't the serenity I'd felt with that "central me" I usually felt with meditation, it was very obviously something else. I feel like this story gets told a lot by people, but it's what brought me back to thinking about the Holy Spirit. It might sound silly, but I feel oddly clear headed about it without feeling like I'm desperately trying to believe in something, which is how I think I felt a lot of religious people might feel when I was younger and rebelling against everything and everyone regardless.

# ? Nov 2, 2023 02:58

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

spirit centric conversion experiences are win as hell. had something not too different. looking forward to hearing about where your journey takes you from here

# ? Nov 2, 2023 03:03

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

You ain't kidding. Same for me.

# ? Nov 2, 2023 03:07

Gaius Marius: Oct 9, 2012

I've now finished Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus. I've not had time to put my thoughts in order, but from a spiritual point of view the work is fascinating and much worth reading. It is not however, even close to Goethe.

# ? Nov 2, 2023 06:02

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

NomChompsky posted:

But my experiences recently involved a lot of personal loss in my life after a period of a kind of malaise, and recently while meditating during some grief I felt a very odd sensation of comfort, serenity, and boundless love. It wasn't the serenity I'd felt with that "central me" I usually felt with meditation, it was very obviously something else. I feel like this story gets told a lot by people, but it's what brought me back to thinking about the Holy Spirit. It might sound silly, but I feel oddly clear headed about it without feeling like I'm desperately trying to believe in something, which is how I think I felt a lot of religious people might feel when I was younger and rebelling against everything and everyone regardless.

That's a mood, my own vibe was similar

# ? Nov 2, 2023 06:13

HenryJLittlefinger: Jan 31, 2010; stomp clap

Just curious here, are yall talking about baptism in an Episcopal church specifically?

I remember being a little weird about communion when I first started going to an Episcopal church, but then the priest said in some really specific ways "all are welcome no matter where you are in your faith journey, this is God's table for everyone, etc," and that was a pretty high church. I think every Episcopal church I've been to has had a fairly direct statement that anyone can partake. I don't think I've ever been asked if I'm officially Episcopalian either. I was baptized Presbyterian and confirmed Methodist fwiw.

OP, my experience is similar to yours and after the first couple times going to an Episcopal church, I feel comfortable just dropping into one anywhere I go. They've all been extremely welcoming to some random guy showing up, never overboard with questions, just hey, come on in and be part of this to whatever degree you want. I don't really socialize at church and find I'm consistently left alone when I just sit quietly, or chatted with if I want.

# ? Nov 3, 2023 03:52

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

Baptism is transferable across many Christian denominations, because the formula and intent are generally the same. Some traditions are particular about the methodology (immersion while able to understand what they are doing), but not all of those make it a requirement.

The Episcopal Church in particular does not require rebaptism from mainstream Christian denominations. They may, in my opinion they should, require rebaptism from a converting Latter Day Saint.

# ? Nov 3, 2023 04:11

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

HenryJLittlefinger posted:

Just curious here, are yall talking about baptism in an Episcopal church specifically?

I remember being a little weird about communion when I first started going to an Episcopal church, but then the priest said in some really specific ways "all are welcome no matter where you are in your faith journey, this is God's table for everyone, etc," and that was a pretty high church. I think every Episcopal church I've been to has had a fairly direct statement that anyone can partake. I don't think I've ever been asked if I'm officially Episcopalian either. I was baptized Presbyterian and confirmed Methodist fwiw.

OP, my experience is similar to yours and after the first couple times going to an Episcopal church, I feel comfortable just dropping into one anywhere I go. They've all been extremely welcoming to some random guy showing up, never overboard with questions, just hey, come on in and be part of this to whatever degree you want. I don't really socialize at church and find I'm consistently left alone when I just sit quietly, or chatted with if I want.

I did have lunch with the reverend today and it was a good conversation, but as far as communion you are right, his take was that I could do it, or choose not to and it was totally based on what I am comfortable with. I have, up to now, never really taken it knowing that I am not baptized, and I believe I will continue to do as such until I am.

He is very welcoming and explained to me what I will need to do if my choice is to get baptized eventually, and that it will require a little bit of sideline bible study with him since parents are asked to do the same before baptizing their baby. He also said community is a big deal and that all of these decisions are best made in the community among the people who show up, and I agree with that. I let him know that this is not just a religious experience for me but an educational one and that I am aware and interested in that.

Overall I feel pretty good about it, and am still pretty stoked to meet people and learn.

# ? Nov 3, 2023 04:57

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

NomChompsky posted:

I did have lunch with the reverend today and it was a good conversation, but as far as communion you are right, his take was that I could do it, or choose not to and it was totally based on what I am comfortable with. I have, up to now, never really taken it knowing that I am not baptized, and I believe I will continue to do as such until I am.

He is very welcoming and explained to me what I will need to do if my choice is to get baptized eventually, and that it will require a little bit of sideline bible study with him since parents are asked to do the same before baptizing their baby. He also said community is a big deal and that all of these decisions are best made in the community among the people who show up, and I agree with that. I let him know that this is not just a religious experience for me but an educational one and that I am aware and interested in that.

Overall I feel pretty good about it, and am still pretty stoked to meet people and learn.

Sounds like a good chat!

I'm interested to know what different people here have experienced for an adult initiation process. I know the Catholics have a very proper way of doing it, Orthodoxy has formal catechesis as well - is there a full spectrum down to the low-key Baptist form I know?

# ? Nov 3, 2023 05:03

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

I'd be happy to try and document mine, as much as I can, as it happens.

I am sure it will be a months long process as there are only certain major holy days he said that they are even done on, and I believe the next one is far too soon (this Sunday, which is All Saint's Day). The next one after that, I believe, is the first Sunday after Epiphany.

# ? Nov 3, 2023 05:25

Killingyouguy!: Sep 8, 2014

So the old testament has a LOT about like, how many goats to sacrifice for what sins, etc. Does modern Judaism still do that and if not, why not

# ? Nov 3, 2023 15:47

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Killingyouguy! posted:

So the old testament has a LOT about like, how many goats to sacrifice for what sins, etc. Does modern Judaism still do that and if not, why not

Broad academic summary: Most of these things were supposed to happen at the Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans. Modern "rabbinic" Judaism descends from the formulation of the Talmud around 600 CE and has its roots in the Pharisees (who you may remember from the New Testament.) Modern Orthodox Judaism often does not put it in these terms and sees a direct line with Moses being the first rabbi, it's just that the title wasn't used until more recently.

# ? Nov 3, 2023 15:56

Keromaru5: Dec 28, 2012; Pictured: The Wolf Of Gubbio (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

EDIT: What Nessus said.

# ? Nov 3, 2023 15:59

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011

Killingyouguy! posted:

So the old testament has a LOT about like, how many goats to sacrifice for what sins, etc. Does modern Judaism still do that and if not, why not

No, because the Temple was destroyed (and then rebuilt and destroyed again). And sacrifices can only be brought at the Temple. Basically the entire task of Rabbinic Judaism is to sustain some form of Jewish spirituality in a context where the center of Jewish spirituality - the Temple - is gone indefinitely.

The answer in the case of sacrifices is prayer. There are three daily prayers and a fourth on Shabbos/Saturday, this is in direct emulation of the sacrifice cycle at the Temple - the Talmud opens with a discussion of when the Shema prayer can be said, saying it's aligned with when priests in the Temple would eat ritual offerings. Worship is called "avodah," or "work," a term originally used to refer to the rituals done at the Temple.

And the prayers themselves are loaded with direct and indirect references to the sacrifices - pleading for God will bring back the Temple so the sacrifices can resume, and pleading for God to accept prayer in lieu of sacrifices.

Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Nov 3, 2023

# ? Nov 3, 2023 16:00

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

Well today was my first Churchin' at my local Episcopal church, and it was a really interesting day to be a first. Not only is it the All Saint's Sunday, but also there was a brunch gathering in the adjacent room for the whole congregation afterward celebrating the Reverend's 10 year anniversary at this particular church.

The liturgy is something I really like, and when communion came I crossed my arms to receive a blessing rather than taking it, and was glad to do that. I found myself just kind of reading the hymns rather than singing because I don't really know any of them, so that's another thing for me to learn.

Meeting the rest of the community was a lot of fun, and whoever earlier said I would be doted upon by old church ladies was right on the money. I also got to sit with this cool older guy named Bob who has been going to this church for over 20 years and he gave me like a historical rundown of the building and all the additions throughout the years, and the programs they have run, and how they coped with the pandemic. He and his friend Dennis were really cool and fun to talk to. There were so many people today since it was a big event day that I didn't get a chance to meet everyone but even those I only had a few words with were really hopeful to see me around again so we could chat more. I'm looking forward to that. I even got one lady who wants me in choir because of my "radio voice."

I was pretty nervous going into this but I have to say after all is said and done I'm really happy with my choice, and with the community I've chosen.

# ? Nov 5, 2023 20:32

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:38

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

gently caress yeah

# ? Nov 5, 2023 20:36

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