2023 Hamas/Israeli War Thread: Pier today, gone tomorrow.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > 2023 Hamas/Israeli War Thread: Pier today, gone tomorrow.

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

Lazy_Liberal posted:

regardless of the origins, a lot of jews in my community understand "from the river to the sea" as a call for dismantling the state of Israel. that's existentially frightening since so many of us live with the intergenerational trauma that we will be deported/genocided in the diaspora and require a "safe" place. i think a lot of folks discount how important it feels to have access to significant landmarks from the Torah as well since many of them were inaccessible to Jews for centuries.

that said, i think arguing over rhetoric is hot garbage and the focus needs to be on ending the slaughter of people immediately. it's so contrary to the idea of pikuach nefesh that it is pretty soul destroying to see this violence associated with Judaism in any way.

anyways I'm preaching to the choir and could ramble on for days about this. thanks goons

basically this

Thanks for this, it's a good reminder that rhetoric can mean different things to different people and within their own heads it's all going to be 100% valid. I have my doubts that Tlaib is calling for the livestreamed executions of everyone of Jewish ancestry or whatever the gently caress blithering nonsense is coming out of the Marjorie Taylor Greene's of the world while she votes to have someone else censured for an insurrection, but it's also not going to be interpreted charitably by someone that just had their family killed by Hamas.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:18

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 13:14

Lum_: Jun 5, 2006

ZombieApostate posted:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean

It IS an aspirational call to freedom for Palestinians, apparently. The idea that it is a call for the destruction of Israel is Israeli propaganda.

It's a call for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish ethnostate. How you feel about that depends on how you feel about the chances of Jewish Israelis living in a majority-ruled Palestinian state. Most Jewish Israelis would tell you "not great". After the events of October 7, considerably fewer Jewish Israelis believe living in a multi-ethnic state is possible.

A good breakdown of the debate on academia about this, from a historian who disagrees with the concept of Israel as "settler colonialist":

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/
Paywall-free: https://archive.li/kc7nB

quote:

If the �settler-colonist� narrative is not true, it is true that the conflict is the result of the brutal rivalry and battle for land between two ethnic groups, both with rightful claims to live there. As more Jews moved to the region, the Palestinian Arabs, who had lived there for centuries and were the clear majority, felt threatened by these immigrants. The Palestinian claim to the land is not in doubt, nor is the authenticity of their history, nor their legitimate claim to their own state. But initially the Jewish migrants did not aspire to a state, merely to live and farm in the vague �homeland.� In 1918, the Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann met the Hashemite Prince Faisal Bin Hussein to discuss the Jews living under his rule as king of greater Syria. The conflict today was not inevitable. It became so as the communities refused to share and coexist, and then resorted to arms.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:23

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

Al-Saqr posted:

Hamas has put out a statement, they claim that over the 12 days since the beginning of the ground combat, they have destroyed 136 vehicles of the IDF.

They also just released more incredible footage just now. This is by far their most stunning footage they've released.

it includes

two tanks that are parked right next to each other literally touching each other getting blown up, and it seems like it caused a chain reaction because one of them might have blown the other one up.

a shot of them wiping out Israelis holed up on a school building room with a TBG thermo rpg

A triple diagonal kill where 3 guys knock out 3 tanks that literally had them surrounded from 2 sides.

they had two cameramen filming the same shot where there was what looks like two vehicles, an APC and a Merkava, with an IDF soldier standing on top of them they shot the KONKURS missile at it, then captured the total Vaporization of the tanks and the IDF trooped from close up cam and far away cam.

in all of those instances, except I think the Konkurs one, they were always between 100 feet away from their target. and almost always were safe enough afterwards to withdraw.

Also it started with a shot of a building operating as a front base for the IDF, surrounded by dozens of tanks, fortified by sand, only for the building to get vaporized by heavy mortar artillery. and their tank concentration getting shelled by heavy mortars.

psydude posted:

If there's one thing we learned from Russia's reaction to the first week of Urkaine's counteroffensive, disabled or even hit doesn't mean destroyed.

OK so I just watched the video. I'm going to assume you haven't watched a lot of combat footage or have a lot of exposure to how mortars, rockets, and modern armored vehicles work because none of this is as conclusive or severe as you describe.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:25

ThisIsJohnWayne: Feb 23, 2007; Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!

Seeing large explosions have very little to do with if the thing you shot at is toast or not. Few targets are explosive, unlike munitions which are very often very explosive but are also going to explode when they miss or don't penetrate or don't achieve anything on the people at the dangerous end. Leaving the area is likewise something you should do irregardless of what you achieved or safe etc

Saqr, I say this friendly like, you can't be sure of what you're seeing.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:28

Lum_: Jun 5, 2006

This war in particular has been a complete triumph of propaganda narrative over objective truth, on either side. I don't think we're going to have a truly accurate sense of what happened/is happening for years to come.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:34

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

The thermobaric round doesn't even look like it worked. It hits the other side of the building and creates a big, theatrical mushroom cloud on the outside, but it looks like it didn't achieve much of an effect. But again, it's really impossible to tell from that distance without seeing inside.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:34

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

they're all being fired from close range because they have a ~200ft maximum range. hamas claims the range is a bit longer, like another 50-100ft, but idk how much evidence there is for that.