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Twerk from Home posted:All of those things have much less GPU (for now) and the ~720p (I know it's actually 1280x800) resolution that the Steam Deck is targeted at looks way worse on full size monitors. I don't see it magically being a better experience than you can do with those same mini PCs on Windows right now, or just using Proton via Steam on any common Linux distro. The selling point is being able to operate the system with a controller. A console that plays pc games. Can’t really do that with Windows or do that easily with other *nix OS’s. It is also an immutable OS which makes it easier to troubleshoot and harder to gently caress up. Whether those things can help sell enough systems to turn a profit is a different subject. But that’s why people want it.
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Nov 10, 2023 05:55
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Cygni posted:The “tiers” are made up No kidding?? That proves my point even more.
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Nov 10, 2023 06:03
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Kibner posted:The selling point is being able to operate the system with a controller. A console that plays pc games. Can’t really do that with Windows or do that easily To be fair you can if you launch steam big picture on startup
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Nov 10, 2023 07:07
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HalloKitty posted:To be fair you can if you launch steam big picture on startup As someone who has multiple of these windows handheld things, yes you can do that but RIP if something doesn’t work. It works a lot of the time but it’s not a fool proof system because windows blows balls. There is a windows update. There is a driver update. Steam logged you out for some dumb reason.
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Nov 10, 2023 07:24
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Mods please ban these vicious bullies who kindly answered my questions. My goal with most consumer electronics is the minimum effective spending for the given level of performance I'm targeting, so the 4080 seems like the choice for my needs. Should I just find the best deal on whatever Asus/MSI/Gigabyte card is available? I'm partial to EVGA but I know they dipped on this gens cards.
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Nov 10, 2023 07:39
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Yeah, individual card manufacturers mostly come down to preferences on cooling solution, whether you want ~factory overclocking~, et cetera. None of the modern big brands really produce particularly bum coolers, and it mostly comes down to how loud they get under load, so it's mostly a matter of finding a good deal (and that's going to be an eagle-eyed hunt in the next few weeks, including the Black Friday-Cyber Monday holiday period), deciding how much Gamer RGB you want, and making sure the rest of your cooling solution, and case solution overall, can accommodate the needs and size of the card. Basically, just browse PCPP, check the individual sites, maybe look at a few reviews, check the card length against your case (though PCPP should do this for you) and see what looks good. Gigabyte, Zotac, PNY, MSI, and Asus are all perfectly worth considering. (It still amuses me, seeing those PNY VERTO-badged boxes and cards after all these years. If the marketing ain't broke...) And yeah, EVGA and the 4000 series is a whole Thing. You can find a bunch of discussion about what happened elsewhere. Zotac or PNY might be the closest to their cooling aesthetic among the surviving Nvidia partners? You'll have to decide for yourself, though.
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Nov 10, 2023 08:42
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Some companies continue to have historically garbage production quality but it doesn't matter if you're the type that upgrades as soon as you come off warranty.
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Nov 10, 2023 09:05
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MarcusSA posted:As someone who has multiple of these windows handheld things, yes you can do that but RIP if something doesn’t work. It works a lot of the time but it’s not a fool proof system because windows blows balls. I'm absolutely not saying it's as good of an experience, just that "controlling the system with a controller" is possible.
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Nov 10, 2023 09:18
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McKracken posted:Mods please ban these vicious bullies who kindly answered my questions. Unless the partner cards get some BF discounts in your region, if you can get the FE model then that one will be pretty much the cheapest option I think.
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Nov 10, 2023 10:34
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MarcusSA posted:As someone who has multiple of these windows handheld things, yes you can do that but RIP if something doesn’t work. It works a lot of the time but it’s not a fool proof system because windows blows balls. Yeah, that is what I meant by operate the system. You can restart, install updates, change system settings, etc. with a controller.
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Nov 10, 2023 12:43
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Wankie posted:That was just S3 texture compression which every graphics card basically adopted after Microsoft used it as the standard for DirectX texture compression. Although obviously on release only S3 supported it. Yeah, though later in UT99’s maintenance cycle they added support for S3’s too-late proprietary API that was (no really) called MeTaL. S3TC (and to an extent DXTC) was the one good enduring contribution they made in those early days; they were beleaguered and reliably late to the party on so much else, and then the Savage 2000 shipped with a broken T&L unit, and that was pretty much that. gently caress, I wish Rendition had hung on longer.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:19
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S3s decision to use 565 color (one extra bit for green) was a stain on graphics for a while though, if you've ever noticed a weird green/purple tint in what's supposed to be a grey, that's why the newer texture formats use 555 color instead and use the last bit for something else
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Nov 10, 2023 16:28
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Kibner posted:Yeah, that is what I meant by operate the system. You can restart, install updates, change system settings, etc. with a controller. What SteamOS and the Steam Deck firmware itself mean is that you can also use the controller when things veer off the happy path, even to the BIOS level in the case of the Deck. A SteamOS user should never need to see a desktop or touch a command line. A Steam Deck user should never need to plug in a keyboard or mouse.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:43
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So AMD has preview drivers with their frame generation tech available to implement at the driver level in any DX11 or DX12 game. Installed them and tried it in Alan Wake 2, and I think I'm a believer in frame gen now. Path tracing is still off the table, but FSR2 Balanced + direct lighting and medium denoising runs in the 70fps range now with the added "fake frames" on a 7900 XTX You can tell something is slightly off when moving, but it's not enough to be an issue. I assume if FSR3 is actually implemented in a game by developers it would probably look even better.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:47
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They've had framegen a while ago driver-side, I don't know what the big deal is. The drivers with them are about a month old or so. I posted about it before in the thread. It was decent on a 6800XT in Cyberpunk but bad in Starfield.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:05
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wolrah posted:
This is true on the basic level of wanting it to be console-like, but one of the strengths of the Deck is that you CAN expose that desktop, install some pretty interesting plugins, and do poo poo like modding outside of the Steam Workshop (or in-game bullshit like the Bethesda one that I always forget the name. It's also just nice extra functionality that has completely eliminated my need to travel with a laptop. Don't get me wrong, there's still a bunch of poo poo that you can't do over on desktop side because of oddities about how they rolled their flavor of linux and some applications and dependencies not playing well with it (or at least not without a degree of tinkering I don't care to do). Even something as basic as printing to a networked computer takes some dumb work arounds. But holy poo poo is it nice to be able to fire up a web browser, crack open some files in Office Libre, and send them off wherever they need to go before booting back into game mode to get on with wasting time. Throw a little micro keyboard in your bag and you're good to go, the built-in trackpad is mouse pad enough for this kind of basic poo poo. Just a REALLY nice half-way point between a full flavor laptop and trying to gently caress around and do things with a phone. Absolutely not something the typical user is going to want or need, but I'm really glad it's there.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:27
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HalloKitty posted:I'm absolutely not saying it's as good of an experience, just that "controlling the system with a controller" is possible. Yeah that’s true but in the deck you will realistically never have to do that but on a windows system you will absolutely have to do it and way too often.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:57
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Yeah I've done my best to make my PC totally controller driven and I still have to keep a mini kb+m on the coffee table for whatever comes up.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:11
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:They've had framegen a while ago driver-side, I don't know what the big deal is. The drivers with them are about a month old or so. I posted about it before in the thread. It was decent on a 6800XT in Cyberpunk but bad in Starfield. They just released an updated driver yesterday or today, https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/release-notes/rn-rad-win-23-30-afmf-tech-preview. Guess I simply missed your older post so I wasn't aware they'd released it previously. Works okay for me, but I'm not playing Starfield and don't have Cyberpunk 2077 installed currently to test it in those games.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:23
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Canned Sunshine posted:4090 is going to be lucky to sell for $700 while the 5070 probably supplants it performance wise. Man, that would be a great 5070 but can you imagine NVIDIA ever putting that much memory in a xx70? Seems like a fairy tale to me.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:31
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repiv posted:they would if the software side of SLI weren't so irrevocably hosed but that ship has sailed "two GPUS on one PCB" is a vastly different cross connect bandwidth proposition than "two GPUs and maybe you can get enough through the PCIe bus or this dodgy ribbon cable I guess" Closer to the chiplets end of the spectrum but you'll probably still have to have redundant VRAM
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Nov 10, 2023 22:01
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Hasturtium posted:gently caress, I wish Rendition had hung on longer. if only the v1000 had a hardware z buffer
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Nov 10, 2023 22:15
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Harik posted:"two GPUS on one PCB" is a vastly different cross connect bandwidth proposition than "two GPUs and maybe you can get enough through the PCIe bus or this dodgy ribbon cable I guess" true, there was hope that nvlink might enable a more transparent version of SLI but nothing ever came of it in the consumer space nvidia was putting nvlink on consumer chips for a bit so they might have been trying to get that to work, but they seemingly gave up since it's only on the giant HPC chips now
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Nov 10, 2023 22:15
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How is this thread not just a solid page of demanding the story of the nailgun GPU killer?repiv posted:true, there was hope that nvlink might enable a more transparent version of SLI but nothing ever came of it in the consumer space Yeah. I don't think we'll get multi-die GPUs until we've got a generation or two of chiplets because there's serious architectural and driver changes needed for chiplets to be efficient and nobody's solved it yet. That said, working chiplets pretty much gets rid of the need for multi-die gpu anyway. It's just packaging at that point so you have a 50x25mm^2 super-halo tier chip instead of a 25^25mm^2 one. It's not exponentially more expensive since it's just more chiplets, not requiring a massive defect-free area of a monolithic die.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:33
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Branch Nvidian posted:They just released an updated driver yesterday or today, https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/release-notes/rn-rad-win-23-30-afmf-tech-preview. Guess I simply missed your older post so I wasn't aware they'd released it previously. Works okay for me, but I'm not playing Starfield and don't have Cyberpunk 2077 installed currently to test it in those games. The first driver version with this was super broken with scuffed frame pacing. Basically the real and generated frames would appear within a millisecond of each other while leaving a long frametime gap between each pair. A lot of users posted impressive, almost impossible frame rate improvements as evidence of how great the feature is while ignoring how the broken frame pacing rendered it useless. Even if they've fixed the frame pacing now, I don't think I'd like using it to get a final frame rate of 70fps. The extra input latency it adds would be too much to tolerate for me.
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Nov 10, 2023 23:18
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Subjunctive posted:Man, that would be a great 5070 but can you imagine NVIDIA ever putting that much memory in a xx70? Seems like a fairy tale to me. We do have some word from Kopite7Kimi that Nvidia may be using a 512-bit bus for the 5090 which would give it at least 32GB (he uses stronger words, but it seems too early to say this definitively). It wouldn't be too surprising if the entire product stack were lifted up relative to this. 24GB on the 5080, 16GB for the 5070, etc. If they're moving to GDDR7, there will be more capacity options than there were with GDDR6 since I believe Micron is making 16Gb and 24Gb modules (8Gb may finally be dead). 24Gb is a new one and can enable 50% higher capacities on lower bus widths, such as 18GB on 192 bits, or even 24GB on 256 bits (though that seems very unlikely for a 5070). We'll have to wait to see how this pans out, but Nvidia seems to have been taken by surprise by the negative reaction to 12GB and 8GB cards and have responded by doing a 4060 Ti 16GB and the 4070 Ti Super with 16GB. If nothing else, I'd be surprised if the 5070 ends up with less than 16GB again. And I think that would be a good total for a high-end 1440p card or midrange 4K card until the next console generation. For those that care, Moore's Law is Dead has ""leaked"" (speculated) that the 4070 Super will debut at $599 - $649, the 4070 Ti Super at $799 - $849, and the 4080 Super at $999. Considering all three of the normal SKUs have been seeing discounts recently, I think it's plausible that the new replacements would come in at the same MSRPs as the original. The 4080 being $200 cheaper isn't outside the realm of possibility (we've seen a couple cards from PNY and Zotac get discounted to that level), but that seems a little too good to be true. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 23:52
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Subjunctive posted:Man, that would be a great 5070 but can you imagine NVIDIA ever putting that much memory in a xx70? Seems like a fairy tale to me. I could buy that for the 5070 with the hilarious asterisk that if it does it will cost $1200 Innovation is slowing  Is the 5000 series supposed to do multi core? Apple's work on multicore GPU makes me hopeful that we could break through a wall or two with that. Honestly I wouldn't mind Apple getting into discrete GPUs, but that is extremely wishful thinking. It would own though if we could get another major competitor in the space, because AMD isn't really mounting an effective enough defense for Nvidia to lower its monopoly pricing. Canned Sunshine posted:And you and others came in to brag about the mighty 4090 and why wouldn't he Sorry I won't respond to any of that inane rambling but could I just register that this is literally a thread about talking about cool GPU things. You're being a crazy person over people just appreciating technology in a thread dedicated to it  That's my only response, thanks Taima fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 00:39
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apple has hardly cracked it, even with the extremely tight integration between the two dies on the Ultra models the GPU is generally nowhere near twice as fast as the single-die Max in practice
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Nov 11, 2023 00:46
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Totally, I'm with that. We're definitely in early days, I just dream of a day when Nvidia will have a competitor because man do we ever need that. I'm also, generally speaking, worried that innovation is coming at higher and higher expense. But it's hard for me to separate the genuine cost increases vs. the monopoly tax that Nvidia imposes.
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Nov 11, 2023 00:47
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Stability ai getting financial backing from intel
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Nov 11, 2023 07:31
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K8.0 posted:It's going to become worthless much more quickly. An 8700k is far more viable today than a Titan Xp, and that's comparing a 6 year old mainstream $360 CPU to a 6 year old high end $1200 GPU. I got a 50% fps boost from 8700k to 12700,K, with same DDR4 sticks, rtx 3080. 8700K is super slow these days, and a huge bottleneck for even older gpus like the 3000 series.
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Nov 11, 2023 12:46
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I'm sure you can find some realistic cases like that. I doubt you can find a single realistic case where a Titan Xp is 2/3 as fast as a 4090 or even a 4080. It's fact, not opinion, that GPUs age worse than CPUs for gaming.
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Nov 11, 2023 13:51
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what this is telling me is that I should probably upgrade my 7700 to make my 3070 happier.
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Nov 11, 2023 13:59
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Shifty Pony posted:what this is telling me is that I should probably upgrade my 7700 to make my 3070 happier. Quad cores are a more extreme example because frame times will go to poo poo on games that expect at least 6 but other than everything is still playable with an older CPU if you're not pushing more than 60hz anyways. A new CPU is still going to feel noticeably better though Arzachel fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 14:18
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It's about the minimum framerates and consistent frametimes more than anything else. Maybe you won't notice the higher overall framerates but you will find that general gameplay is significantly smoother. The bottom end is just as important as the top end, if not more so. I like to think that the GPU will get you good maximum framerates while the CPU will get you good minimum framerates. Obviously this isn't a hard and fast rule but it's one that's held true in my experiences
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Nov 11, 2023 14:27
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I'm sure I've posted this before but I played Cyberpunk on my i5-3470. It effectively capped the frames at like 45fps but this usually wasn't an issue because the 1070 wouldn't reach that at 1440p anyway. I'm sure it would be faster with a more powerful CPU but probably not by much.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:53
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It was hanging in there for an admirable length of time but Baldur's Gate 3 at 1440p is definitely giving it some trouble.
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Nov 11, 2023 15:24
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Arzachel posted:Quad cores are a more extreme example because frame times will go to poo poo on games that expect at least 6 but other than everything is still playable with an older CPU if you're not pushing more than 60hz anyways. A new CPU is still going to feel noticeably better though The steam Deck is a quad core CPU, and a really low clocked one to boot, 3.5GHz max turbo when the GPU isn't loaded. I guess the kinds of games that need a fast CPU people just don't even try on the deck?
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Nov 11, 2023 15:54
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Twerk from Home posted:I guess the kinds of games that need a fast CPU people just don't even try on the deck? Certainly not at 60 frames a second.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:07
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Certainly not at 60 frames a second. Does resolution matter at all for that? Serious question, I don't know if only pushing 720p is going to make the CPU bottleneck less of an issue.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:38
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