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ISIS is still around btw
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Nov 10, 2023 10:39
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Seems Israel has finally given the clear for brazilians in Gaza to evacuate.... AFTER their ambassador held a meeting wirh fascist ex-president Bolsonaro and his maniac crew. He's been quick to start crowing that -he- was the one to get the people out. On the brazilian Hezbollah angle, most feds are really pissed at being pre-empted from the outside. Back in 2016 there was also a lot of sirens over some big terror cell planning something big, which was then downgraded to "small radical group" and then to "some strange chatter in a forum and Whatsapp". Which made for a lot of eggs on investigator faces. So we'll see. Could be minor cash-raising and recruitment, could be nothing, could be an actual planned hit. Some of the usual suspects already picked their version and are on tv demanding Brazil cut ties with Lebanon and Iran (and thus kill BRICS again).
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Nov 10, 2023 12:09
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https://x.com/paulmurphy_TD/status/1722751167900594256?s=20 On that note the opposition in Ireland are claiming there's evidence Israel is blocking Irish citizens from being evacuated in retaliation for Ireland voting in favour of a ceasefire. Though the government leader denies that's the reason.
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Nov 10, 2023 13:28
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looks like Biden was just straight up lying about not believing the Palestinian death toll. What an incredible piece of poo poo! https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1722611520457064629?t=DzIsVP2epYe7Z8L1MTPllw&s=19 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2023 13:52
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Wow I would sure feel stupid right now if I had ever given Israel or Biden the benefit of the doubt.
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Nov 10, 2023 13:56
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Main Paineframe posted:The articles you posted makes it extremely clear why the people are fleeing, as well as why Hamas is calling it "forced displacement" and a "humanitarian catastrophe", and they seem quite far off from how you interpreted them: A big flaming stink posted:You realize this is literally ethnic cleansing right They do also have a secondary objective of punishing the citizens of Gaza though. We've seen a lot of statements from Israel suggesting or outright stating that: - they see all citizens as at least complicit in the attack, meaning they want revenge - they do not want anyone in Gaza to feel that they were "rewarded" for doing 10/7, so they will ensure that living conditions deteriorate for the people of Gaza in some way compared to the previous status quo - they want to "make an example" of Gaza to discourage other groups in the region from attacking them This objective could well lead to ethnic cleansing (forcing Gazans into an even smaller area) or a particularly brutal occupation post-war. Ultimately, I think it's difficult to provide much meaningful opposition to point 1 (the idea that Hamas needs to be destroyed). Hamas has outright stated it will continue to perform massacres against Israel until the state is destroyed. I certainly do not think they have the capacity to do this, but it will be difficult to convince the people of Israel otherwise when Hamas and their allies are so insistent on that point, and when their initial attack was so much more "successful" than anyone would've previously anticipated. Point 2, however (that collective punishment is necessary), is horrible and should be opposed as hard as possible. The destruction of the group responsible for the attack should be sufficient justice for Israel - punishing entirely innocent people will not help, it will only cause further needless suffering and allow Hamas (or something very similar) to rise again due to the resentment it will create.
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Nov 10, 2023 14:01
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The destruction of the group responsible for the attack should be sufficient justice for Israel - punishing entirely innocent people will not help, it will only cause further needless suffering and allow Hamas (or something very similar) to rise again due to the resentment it will create.
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Nov 10, 2023 14:19
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Sure - while Hamas had a legitimate reason to fight against the Israeli state, attacking innocent Israelis did not help Hamas' cause, it just caused needless suffering and has given Israel the political will and international justification they needed to obliterate Hamas and cause horrific levels of suffering to the civilians in Gaza.
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Nov 10, 2023 14:35
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Sure - while Hamas had a legitimate reason to fight against the Israeli state, attacking innocent Israelis did not help Hamas' cause, it just caused needless suffering and has given Israel the political will and international justification they needed to obliterate Hamas and cause horrific levels of suffering to the civilians in Gaza. I'm confuses, didn't you want to do Israel now? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2023 14:44
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No matter what Hamas did, none of it justifies Israels response. Even before October 7th, Israel was the aggressor, they were not attacked unprovoked despite the narrative in the media. Israel for years now has been unjustly kidnapping and imprisoning people without trial or charges. They are even holding children in prison. https://www.btselem.org/statistics/minors_in_custody Hamas objective on October 7 was to free those prisoners, it has worked in the past, but Israel this time has written the hostages off and doesn't care if they die.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:02
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Sure - while Hamas had a legitimate reason to fight against the Israeli state, attacking innocent Israelis did not help Hamas' cause, it just caused needless suffering and has given Israel the political will and international justification they needed to obliterate Hamas and cause horrific levels of suffering to the civilians in Gaza. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2023 15:06
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Jaxyon posted:Are palestinians still starving and drinking ocean water or is some aid getting through? Prior to the current crisis they needed 500 trucks a day for sustainment, and they're getting less than a hundred now.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:10
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I have seen unconfirmed reports of deaths due to starvation have started to happen in Gaza. It has been over a month since supplies of food was cut off, and Gaza residents posting on social media, have continually talked about markets and grocery stores being out of food for weeks now. So this is believable.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:16
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I said come in! posted:...but Israel this time has written the hostages off and doesn't care if they die. I presume this is related to haaretz articles about the IDF attacking homes where Hamas were hiding, without verifying if they also included hostages. As well as reports about heavy fire that may have caught Israeli's in the cross-fire. Having hostages get released with testimony which challenges the October 7th narrative that Hamas was dismembering and burning bodies, when it may have been caused by tank shells, would be politically uncomfortable when those civilian deaths are used to justify the current genocide. Given the extent of bombing with seemingly no care for hostages, I get the impression the Israeli state would be happy enough for them to be found dead so they can be added to the death toll of Hamas.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:18
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"Thanks for arresting spooky Hezbollah mooks, Brazil. No, your citizens are still not allowed to leave Gaza." -Israel
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Nov 10, 2023 15:34
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Big Hubris posted:Prior to the current crisis they needed 500 trucks a day for sustainment, and they're getting less than a hundred now. None of that reaching north gaza/gaza city.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:41
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Marenghi posted:I presume this is related to haaretz articles about the IDF attacking homes where Hamas were hiding, without verifying if they also included hostages. As well as reports about heavy fire that may have caught Israeli's in the cross-fire. There is that and this report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say I think you nailed the reason for ultimately why Israeli leadership refuses to acknowledge the hostages, even while the rest of the world, and Israels own citizens are demanding that this be a focus. I don't get the impression that Israel's government will be able to get away with dead hostages and writing them off as part of the death toll from Hamas, but I can see them absolutely trying to do that. It's just that Israeli citizens see Netanyahu as not even trying, so that is why they won't buy that line.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:48
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Spice World War II posted:I'm confuses, didn't you want to do Israel now? Brucolac posted:Ah, nuts. Looks like you just did Hamas again. "Now do Israel" is pretty vague, I think the user interpreted it in a way that makes sense. Their first post was scolding Israel for attacking innocent Palestinians while accepting that Hamas is a legitimate target. So "now do Israel" is the reverse of that, scolding shakes for attacking innocent Israelis while accepting that the Israeli state is a legitimate target. I don't know what else "now do Israel" would mean here. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 15:51
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Two hostages look to be getting released unconditionally https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-10-23/index.html quote:The head of UNICEF, responding on Thursday to a video depicting a child hostage being held in Gaza, called for the unconditional release of all hostages. This makes Israel leadership look really bad.
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Nov 10, 2023 15:59
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I said come in! posted:Two hostages look to be getting released unconditionally https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-10-23/index.html I'm not following this too closely and it didn't seem to say it in the link, but is there any word about how PIJ is involved/how they ended up with hostages? I thought all of the hostages came from Israel on 10/7 and it was only Hamas who were involved in that attack EVVVV: Ahhh okay, I didn't realize that, thanks for the responses Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 16:04
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It's Hamas' position that after they breached the wall other factions crossed through; the straightforward assumption would be that PIJ took their own hostages, the cynical take would be that Hamas assigned them hostages to support this.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:07
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Kalit posted:I'm not following this too closely and it didn't seem to say it in the link, but is there any word about how PIJ is involved/how they ended up with hostages? I thought all of the hostages came from Israel on 10/7 and it was only Hamas who were involved in that attack Hamas have consistently said they weren't the only ones that entered Israel on 10/7, hth.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:08
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Journalist reporting both that people who were trying to evacuate al-Rantisi hospital were fired at and that people evacuating along the southern route were bombed, on Salah al-Din Road. First link here includes a video from al-Rantisi that isn't bloody, but it does include the sound of gunfire and the crowd's reaction. Second link here is the top of a thread which has a video of the aftermath of the bombing at Salah al-Din Road, including footage of people who are either injured or dead. Screenshot if you don't want to click on the tweet itself. e: Just all really underscores how absurd it is that Israel is forcibly displacing and endangering people while pretending it gives a single gently caress about human life Hebh Jamal's link tree includes articles she's written for Al Jazeera, Middle East Eye, and others. e: And for what little it's worth now, daslog posted:I saw this posted today. While it's certainly not great that journalists are getting killed, there appear to be some abuse of journalism standards going on. "Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion [that journalists had advanced knowledge of or participated in Oct 7th]. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know." TGLT fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 16:27
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Irony Be My Shield posted:That's fair - I don't disagree with any of that. My language was too sanitized and did not acknowledge the deliberate role that Israel has played in forcing people to leave. And what if point 1 requires point 2 What if the only way to actually destroy Hamas is to remove every gazan, by cleansing or extermination, from the strip
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Nov 10, 2023 17:28
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Hamas is lashing out at an Israeli state that has kept Gaza under concentration camp conditions for 20 years. They are also lashing out at a civilian Israeli populace that has largely allowed, encouraged, and actively participated in forced resettlement, human rights violations, and small/large scale genocide during those 20 years. Why should Israeli settlers bordering the Gaza Strip be a bridge too far for Gaza refugees and Hamas fighters? Aren't they doing exactly what Americans envision they would do if their government or an outside invader was tyrannical? What legal and political avenues are actually open for significant improvements and self-determination for Gaza? And why would the actions of a tiny minority of militants justify throwing all moral and legal principles out the window and leveling Gaza in its entirety? Israel's (and America's) actions and justifications are completely hollow. I'm not surprised by Israel, but I guess I was somewhat naive because I didn't expect the US government to provide total and unquestioning cover for genocide. FistEnergy fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 17:51
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A big flaming stink posted:And what if point 1 requires point 2 If you did that then I imagine you'd see something pop up from the West Bank and replace Abbas. You don't beat groups like Hamas with more violence, you do it by removing the conditions that make those groups appear
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Nov 10, 2023 17:54
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FistEnergy posted:
Settlements roughly in the epicenter of the Hamas Attacks on 7th October are not only pre-1948 jewish villages, but many predate the 1920 founding of Haganah. In fact some of these sites have Jewish towns and villages since the second temple, or farther out. "Settler" doing a lot of lifting here.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:56
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FistEnergy posted:Hamas is lashing out at an Israeli state that has kept Gaza under concentration camp conditions for 20 years. They are also lashing out at a civilian Israeli populace that has largely allowed, encouraged, and actively participated in forced resettlement, human rights violations, and small/large scale genocide during those 20 years. The new talking point going around the right wing "intelligentsia" today is that Hamas is worse than the Nazis actually with a big ol' helping of Holocaust minimization and thus all actions are justified
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Nov 10, 2023 17:58
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Groovelord Neato posted:The new talking point going around the right wing "intelligentsia" today is that Hamas is worse than the Nazis actually with a big ol' helping of Holocaust minimization and thus all actions are justified this has been a thing for a while. Netanyahu once said that the Nazi's didn't want to do the Holocaust but Muslims convinced them to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9HmkRYlVZw
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Nov 10, 2023 18:01
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FistEnergy posted:Hamas is lashing out at an Israeli state that has kept Gaza under concentration camp conditions for 20 years. They are also lashing out at a civilian Israeli populace that has largely allowed, encouraged, and actively participated in forced resettlement, human rights violations, and small/large scale genocide during those 20 years. Of course this is objectively true, but any implication that a civilian populace shouldn't be protected as civilians because they're active participants in the state, that's morally and legally lost. Very few civilians are Sophie Scholl, perfect conscientious objectors who are in no way involved in the crimes of their state. Most of the civilians who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were participants in the fascist Japanese war effort - in their economic roles, in their ideological positions, in their prior or upcoming military service. They were still civilians and their massacre was an abomination. And the Israeli civilians were civilians and their massacre was an abomination. And of course this goes for ever civilian in Gaza, who "allowed, encouraged, and actively participated in" Hamas's political and economic program but who are still civilians. Not "civilians but" or "civilians except," they are civilians period. quote:Why should Israeli settlers bordering the Gaza Strip be a bridge too far for Gaza refugees and Hamas fighters? They weren't Israeli settlers. "Settlers are Israeli citizens who live on private Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/6/who-are-israeli-settlers-and-why-do-they-live-on-palestinian-lands These people lived near Gaza, they did not live in the West Bank or East Jerusalem. They weren't settlers. quote:Aren't they doing exactly what Americans envision they would do if their government or an outside invader was tyrannical? I guess this is what it comes down to. If American military propaganda is the only standard by which any military or militia can be judged, Hamas hasn't done anything beyond the pale. Mass extermination of civilians, some rape and torture, kidnapping random people - that's a slow month for the U.S. And the whole library of American/Israeli excuses for killing civilians - bad apples, bad intel, crossfire, they were military-aged, they were Nazis - they have all been applied in this thread, in the service of explaining why a bunch of drugged-up monstrously-traumatized young religious militiamen could not possibly have done anything that crossed a moral line during their suicide mission. But the fact that the US does it doesn't mean that it's not evil, the fact that the US does it means that it's especially dangerous for Americans and residents of the American empire to discuss the circumstances under which civilians aren't really civilians. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 18:18
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I think what ultimately all of this comes down to is that Israel's current actions are not going to bring about peace for their people (the entire narrative for this war is to secure safety and peace for Israeli's). They have made their situation worst in every single way. The Israeli government has their people actually believing that this war will ultimately result in safety for Israeli's. It won't. Netanyahu has irreparably ruined the reputation of Israel, it's economy, and the safety of Jews in not just Israel, but around the world. I am obviously very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, but I don't want violence and hatred directed at the Jews either, that will help nothing. But I blame that entirely on the State of Israel and its behavior, and the western super powers, especially the United States, and the U.K. for enabling that behavior.
I said come in! fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 18:26
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Kalit posted:I'm not following this too closely and it didn't seem to say it in the link, but is there any word about how PIJ is involved/how they ended up with hostages? I thought all of the hostages came from Israel on 10/7 and it was only Hamas who were involved in that attack While Hamas made the breaches in the barrier for their own use, anyone could come through those holes once they were made. The sluggishness of the Israeli response meant that the breaches remained open for a good chunk of the day, so there was plenty of time for other groups to catch wind of what was going on and start sending their own people through the fences. That's part of the reason Hamas insists so strongly that a ceasefire is a necessary precondition for negotiating hostage returns: they weren't the only group capturing hostages on Oct 7th, so they literally do not know where all the hostages are, and the chaos of ongoing bombing makes it very difficult for them to search them out and cut deals with the other groups.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:29
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I said come in! posted:Netanyahu has irreparably ruined the reputation of Israel, it's economy, and the safety of Jews in not just Israel, but around the world. Yea but pretty much every single western government is still lining up to "donate" as many weapons and ammo they want to carry out whatever genocidal campaign his little Zionist heart desires.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:30
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I said come in! posted:I think what ultimately all of this comes down to is that Israel's current actions are not going to bring about peace for their people (the entire narrative for this war is to secure safety and peace for Israeli's). They have made their situation worst in every single way. The Israeli government has their people actually believing that this war will ultimately result in safety for Israeli's. It won't. Netanyahu has irreparably ruined the reputation of Israel, it's economy, and the safety of Jews in not just Israel, but around the world. I am obviously very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, but I don't want violence and hatred directed at the Jews either, that will help nothing. But I blame that entirely on the State of Israel and its behavior, and the western super powers, especially the United States, and the U.K. for enabling that behavior. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl7M80obWU8
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Nov 10, 2023 18:36
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BUUNNI posted:Yea but pretty much every single western government is still lining up to "donate" as many weapons and ammo they want to carry out whatever genocidal campaign his little Zionist heart desires. It wouldn't surprise me either if the extreme far right christians in the western countries (especially the U.S.) were taking advantage of this situation to help intentionally make things more unsafe for Jews. Lindsey Graham especially has been vile during this whole thing, and completely masked off in his motivations.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:39
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I said come in! posted:It wouldn't surprise me either if the extreme far right christians in the western countries (especially the U.S.) were taking advantage of this situation to help intentionally make things more unsafe for Jews. Lindsey Graham especially has been vile during this whole thing, and completely masked off in his motivations. He's been demanding the annihilation of the Palestinians because American right-wingers hate Muslims and want them to die. I don't know why we need to overcomplicate it and say it's really because he wants Jews to suffer. Much of the American right is sincerely philosemitic. On the subject of anti-Jewish violence in the diaspora (which isn't the crisis right now - one Jew has been killed in some sort of confrontation at a protest in America, compared to a horror behind scale in Gaza), here's a study showing a correlation between violence against Jewish Americans and IDF violence: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...B9600C7D58B2510 quote:Utilizing FBI hate crime data from 2001 to 2014 and fixed effects negative binomial regression models, consistent findings underscore that violent Israeli military engagements significantly increase the likelihood of a state reporting anti-Semitic hate crime. Most dramatically, their occurrence increases the likelihood of reported hate crime intimidating individuals or characterized as violent by nearly 35%. So there you go, it's how Zionism is bringing down the diaspora, with statistical significance. The silver lining is that the effect is very brief. When Israel relents, the anti-semitic attacks relent as well. Hopefully this applies to the awful Islamophobie, which has harmed more Americans so far. Frankly I can't think of any consistent moral framework where it's no big deal for Hamas to kill a random Israeli civilian, but it is a big deal for someone sympathetic to Palestine to attack a random Jewish-American civilian (or any other American civilian). If any form of resistance is justified then any form of resistance is justified. Why should a civilian in the imperial palace be entitled to more safety than a civilian in the colony? And if a civilian having a sufficiently high probability of being economically or ideologically entangled in the state makes them an appropriate target, then Americans qualify as much as Israelis. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 18:55
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I said come in! posted:It wouldn't surprise me either if the extreme far right christians in the western countries (especially the U.S.) were taking advantage of this situation to help intentionally make things more unsafe for Jews. Lindsey Graham especially has been vile during this whole thing, and completely masked off in his motivations. Besides, you know, the actual genocide of Palestinians this was my biggest fear and one of the reasons why it doesn't seem outlandish that the Zionists will eventually turn against the United States and the West when everything is settled.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:03
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WaPo is reporting on the hospital scenes posted earlier. Truncated for the copy/paste Fighting rages around Gaza’s hospitals as U.S. cautions over civilian losses https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/10/gaza-israel-palestinians-hospitals-hamas/ quote:JERUSALEM — Israeli tanks, explosions and falling artillery shells surrounded Gaza City’s overcrowded hospitals on Friday as Israeli forces escalated their battle against Hamas militants despite renewed concerns globally over civilian casualties. BUUNNI posted:Yea but pretty much every single western government is still lining up to "donate" as many weapons and ammo they want to carry out whatever genocidal campaign his little Zionist heart desires. What other western governments besides the US has donated weapons and ammo to Israel since 10/7? TGLT posted:Honestly, the patient suffering is already too much and it seems blatantly clear that - given how Israel is laying the groundwork for justifying bombing these hospitals - Israel will be inflicting more still with little effort made to reduce it. Agreed. I was expecting Israel to actually hit the hospitals with the big bombs and level them entirely with everyone inside. It's a sick twist of fate that a forced evacuation under gunfire is a "relief." \/\/\/ ummel fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 19:05
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ummel posted:WaPo is reporting on the hospital scenes posted earlier. Honestly, the patient suffering is already too much and it seems blatantly clear that - given how Israel is laying the groundwork for justifying bombing these hospitals - Israel will be inflicting more still with little effort made to reduce it.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:08
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Civilized Fishbot posted:He's been demanding the annihilation of the Palestinians because American right-wingers hate Muslims and want them to die. I don't know why we need to overcomplicate it and say it's really because he wants Jews to suffer. Much of the American right is sincerely philosemitic. it is absolutely not "philosemite" Lindsey Graham had no problem invoking George Soros as the real reason Donald Trump was arrested for campaign finance crimes. They broadly do not have any issue whatsoever with anti-Semitism except when they use that word to deflect from criticism of Israel. Lindsey is proudly advertising his pro-Jewish bona fides, but the only time I can find he has said or done anything in defense of Jewish people, unrelated to Israel, is criticizing Trump for his "good people on both sides" comment, and, well, see above for how deep that principle goes.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:21
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