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Also, clashes and disagreements did not start at the birth of Israel. The old Yishuv refers to the pre-1880 Jewish population, and the Haganah had been there since the 20s. And even farther back, at Petah Tikva and other places there were jewish settlements that had clashes and peace periods with various local communities. During 1936 and 1939 in the Arab Revolt, the Haganah even engaged in official "do not retaliate"-policy and avoided violence against arabs, and used force to try to force Irgun and Lehi and other Zionist wackos to not attack Arabs. It didn't simply start in May 14 of 1948. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 02:02
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Vahakyla posted:Also, clashes and disagreements did not start at the birth of Israel. My understanding is it started pretty much the moment the British created the entity of "Mandatory Palestine" and promptly hosed it all up because one of the guys in charge was a super Zionist and thought a good response to Arabs not liking his ideas and being upset was to create the "Special Night Squads." quote:The military historian Hew Strachan has described the tactics Wingate employed as a form of state terrorism,[5] and its mode of operation eventually to lead to allegations that Wingate had effectively organized these nights squads into Jewish 'murder gangs' or 'death squads'.[6][5] According to Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld, their training included "how to kill without compunction, how to interrogate prisoners by shooting every tenth man to make the rest talk; and how to deter future terrorists by pushing the heads of captured ones into pools of oil and then freeing them to tell the story".[7] So, uh, yeah, the region we now call Israel and Palestine was ultra hosed up well before WWII even got into swing.
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Nov 10, 2023 02:12
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Larger jewish immigration began in 1880 already based on the rise of Zionism, but the place wasn't exactly a model of stability. The uprising of 1834, etc, and the late 1800s zionists also fueled the strife more. The british administration, or sad attempt of it, in the Mandatory Palestine era didn't help, but it's a bit too simple to assign the origin to be there. Arguably you could even say that Brits were a somewhat positive force on the issue by kicking Egypt out in 1840 when Egypt was knee deep in mass murdering arab villages in the revolt suppression. The British put a stop for the most part to that. And even before the wave of zionists in 1880, the area saw clashes of small jewish villages duking it out with local arab populations and vice versa. And for what it is worth, from the pre-Israel time, Haganah is definitely considered to be the "best" option out of all the Jewish militias, since the alternatives were bands like Irgun. Irgun had genocide explicitly as a policy, Haganah only had secretive small squads do hosed up poo poo, and Haganah was capable of negotiation and peace with the Arabs. Irgun was compared to Nazis during and right after WW2, by members of Haganah itself, and by many early israeli power figures. Fun fact, Likud can trace its heritage to Irgun. quote:Ha'aretz columnist and Israeli historian Tom Segev wrote of the Irgun: "In the second half of 1940, a few members of the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) – the anti-British terrorist group sponsored by the Revisionists and known by its acronym Etzel, and to the British simply as the Irgun – made contact with representatives of Fascist Italy, offering to cooperate against the British."[87] Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 02:19
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like im all about blaming the british as much as possible but not of that matters because today, right now, one party can end all this and it has emphatically not only chosen not to do so, but continually make it worse.
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Nov 10, 2023 02:24
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Proud Christian Mom posted:like im all about blaming the british as much as possible but not of that matters because today, right now, one party can end all this and it has emphatically not only chosen not to do so, but continually make it worse. Oh, trust me, it's in no way meant to reduce any of Israel's responsiblity for the situation, that was not the impression I wanted to give.
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Nov 10, 2023 02:26
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PurpleXVI posted:If I was to give people some benefit of the doubt, rather than just considering them to be utter ghouls, I could see a disregard towards the lives of Israeli settler civilians from the logic that they are directly choosing to benefit from the IDF's crimes(and that if they weren't choosing to move in and settle on the ruins of Palestinian homes, many of those crimes might not happen at all) and that many of them do pick up guns and go commit some war crimes in their spare time.
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Nov 10, 2023 02:57
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There’s also lots of towns in Israel that have had Jewish inhabitants since like, forever. Not every Israeli village is directly taken from Arabs and it’s unfortunately implied by some that any jewish dwelling is stolen. Jews had districts or villages in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias, and Hebron. Also Jaffa, Haifa, Peki'in, Acre, Nablus, Shfaram, and Gaza, on the larger side. Various small rural settlements or family dwellings beyond those, too. Just as an example Jews inhabited Peki’in since the Second Temple, and were displaced by the Arab Revolt in 1936. To insinute this place to be ”stolen from Palestinians” (whatever would be meant by that) would be weapons grade erasure. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 04:12
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All of this goes to how I don't have an opinion on Zionism or the state of Israel or whatever. I just don't want the US paying for it.
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Nov 10, 2023 07:36
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Vahakyla posted:There’s also lots of towns in Israel that have had Jewish inhabitants since like, forever. To build on that, a point I see very rarely made outside of someone from Israel raising it is that when conversation comes round to 'right of return' nobody ever wants to talk about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were expelled across the Middle East. Now that's in a large part because Israel isn't asking for that right to return, and also there are no illusions about what would happen if they tried to return, but a consequences is that for many decades the ideal end goal of most Middle Eastern countries was not just 'no jews in Israel' but 'no jews in the Middle East' and Israel has been just expected to eat that for no concessions at all. It's a big part of why right of return isn't seen as remotely fair or reasonable there.
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Nov 10, 2023 08:39
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Google Jeb Bush posted:there's also nobody worth mentioning with grudges going back centuries plural, it's been less than a century since ww2 To avoid emptyquoting, I'll suggest you read moar books.
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Nov 10, 2023 14:13
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Count Roland posted:To me this current conflict highlights that terrorism works. It's intended to be such an affront that it not only provokes a response, but *requires* a response. Israel razing Gaza was Hamas' goal. Well, a step on the path to their goal of the Muslim world rising up behind them, which isn't working quite as well as they'd hoped (yet). Humanitarian pauses are literally the least Israel could do to avoid escalation/expansion; I didn't think they'd do it. PurpleXVI posted:So, uh, yeah, the region we now call Israel and Palestine was ultra hosed up well before WWII even got into swing. The problem is almost always France and/or Britain. Godholio fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 14:21
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It's reached the point in the campaign where crowds of civilians ordered to evacuate a hospital, men, women and children, all waving white rags, are being shot at on video by the Israelis. Which feels like a quaint return to normality by Israel's standards.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:22
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Godholio posted:The problem is almost always France and/or Britain. And the American inspired/formed League of Nations for creating the Mandate of Palestine. Though America didn't join it after creating it of course.
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Nov 10, 2023 17:32
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It's reached the point in the campaign where crowds of civilians ordered to evacuate a hospital, men, women and children, all waving white rags, are being shot at on video by the Israelis. Which feels like a quaint return to normality by Israel's standards. At the same time, the widely shared video of an Israeli airstrike hitting what is quite obviously a munitions cache next to the hospital is being reported in major news outlets (including the Guardian) without that important context. Like, I don't expect people like the dude gushing over the Hamas propaganda film earlier in the thread to understand what secondary detonations are. But news outlets have less of an excuse, especially after covering the Ukraine war for the past two years. psydude fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 17:46
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They might be missing it, or they may be taking the position that nothing could possibly justify bombing a hospital that is sheltering 50,000 people (and most of the journalists).
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Nov 10, 2023 18:00
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Everyone trying to claim that Israel or Hama's always wanted this is completely off the mark. This is a classic case study in uncontrolled escalation: Hamas had catastrophic success in their attack and public sentiment in Israel has shifted so much that the only course the government can take is one of overwhelming retaliation. Nobody wanted this a month ago but now it is the only possible course.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:00
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psydude posted:At the same time, the widely shared video of an Israeli airstrike hitting what is quite obviously a munitions cache next to the hospital is being reported in major news outlets (including the Guardian) without that important context. got a link? Alchenar posted:Everyone trying to claim that Israel or Hama's always wanted this is completely off the mark. This is a classic case study in uncontrolled escalation: Hamas had catastrophic success in their attack and public sentiment in Israel has shifted so much that the only course the government can take is one of overwhelming retaliation. I don't really buy this. The whole point of the attack was to provoke a response - Bibi's government are known to be stupid, reckless, and violent. I don't think Hamas could have been so obtuse as to not realize that their attack would absolutely bring us to where we are today. I would guess that the entire intent is to force Israel to speed up it's timetable for their slow motion genocide in Gaza in an effort to show the world how brutal and ugly the Israeli regime actually is. In their mind there is no point in simply waiting a few generations for this same process to unfold in a manner that the international community can stomach. Better to force the world watch the endgame and suffer the outcome, whatever it may be. Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 18:02
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psydude posted:At the same time, the widely shared video of an Israeli airstrike hitting what is quite obviously a munitions cache next to the hospital is being reported in major news outlets (including the Guardian) without that important context. Personally I don't really think that context matters. If it's right next to a hospital that's actively in use by civilians you don't loving bomb it unless you're an rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:04
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:They might be missing it, or they may be taking the position that nothing could possibly justify bombing a hospital that is sheltering 50,000 people (and most of the journalists). That may be true, but doesn't "Israel bombs Hamas weapons cache near hospital housing 50,000 refugees" still convey the severity of the issue without omitting important context about the action?
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Nov 10, 2023 18:05
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Grip it and rip it posted:got a link? https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...f08f02e9feca568
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Nov 10, 2023 18:06
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It seems like only the strike near the Indonesia hospital hit any kind of ammo dump? But they also bombed near 2 other locations that didn't generate those kind of secondary explosions. I mean there has been significant coverage of the IDF claiming they're doing everything they can do to minimize civilian deaths and the like. Just because some of these strikes are strategically significant doesn't compensate for the fact that entire city blocks have been razed imo. The point is that there are other means of conducting this war besides bombing everything to smithereens, but Israel would rather blow up all the civilians than risk their own troops. The fact that their efforts are actively terrorizing a population of a million or so people also doesn't seem to make any kind of difference to the israeli government. The very same people who have stated that they keep Hamas in power in order to control what happens in Gaza. Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 18:11
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Israel was probably just as surprised as the people at the hospital that there would be secondary explosions.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:21
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weepy liberals sighing with relief that they might finally have the one secondary effect that can be used to justify ethnic cleansing
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Nov 10, 2023 18:39
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Grip it and rip it posted:I mean there has been significant coverage of the IDF claiming they're doing everything they can do to minimize civilian deaths and the like. For the record, I'm specifically taking issue with lazy reporting. We all know that the IDF has an almost non-existent track record of holding itself accountable for mistakes, let alone deliberate crimes committed by its own troops.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:12
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What the gently caress is going on, how is this in the playbook now https://twitter.com/ReichmanShmuel/status/1722754621557350845?s=19 https://twitter.com/MichaelARothman/status/1722628745511752055?s=19 "At least the Nazis had an ethos" but for real, twice, on the same day psydude posted:For the record, I'm specifically taking issue with lazy reporting. We all know that the IDF has an almost non-existent track record of holding itself accountable for mistakes, let alone deliberate crimes committed by its own troops. Is it weird that I believe their denial of the initial hospital strike? Purely on the basis that when it's them they just say "yeah it fuckin' was and we'll do it again (also the shwarma stand out front was Hamas)"
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Nov 10, 2023 20:06
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Discussion Quorum posted:"At least the Nazis had an ethos" but for real, twice, on the same day Someone get Sean Spicer for comment.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:12
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Discussion Quorum posted:What the gently caress is going on, how is this in the playbook now Answering myself, some British reporter said it and the interview is getting passed around as him "owning" Piers Morgan in a debate on whether or not Palestinians are people or some poo poo. It's in the first tweet. Not gonna watch it because I'm probably going to blow an aneurysm if I do.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:15
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Discussion Quorum posted:Is it weird that I believe their denial of the initial hospital strike? Purely on the basis that when it's them they just say "yeah it fuckin' was and we'll do it again (also the shwarma stand out front was Hamas)" Nope, I thought the same thing. They almost always have a tortured justification for whatever. For them to deny it flat out was new.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:16
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Discussion Quorum posted:Answering myself, some British reporter said it and the interview is getting passed around as him "owning" Piers Morgan in a debate on whether or not Palestinians are people or some poo poo. It's in the first tweet. Not gonna watch it because I'm probably going to blow an aneurysm if I do. Making Piers Morgan sound like the voice of reason (especially in this case where he is right) should be grounds for making any press credentials null and void.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:17
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Alchenar posted:Everyone trying to claim that Israel or Hama's always wanted this is completely off the mark. This is a classic case study in uncontrolled escalation: Hamas had catastrophic success in their attack and public sentiment in Israel has shifted so much that the only course the government can take is one of overwhelming retaliation. I agree with this. Hamas launched a big surprise attack and counted on a big Israeli country attack. But their planners would have been totally insane to think their attack would succeed on the level it did. Likewise, nobody in Israel thought that they were so stupid as to allow Hamas to actually attack Israeli soil so they had no backup plans when militants hunkered down in Kibbutzes.
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Nov 10, 2023 20:45
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Boy, things are truly gone to hell when this guy is making sensible points. https://twitter.com/GUnderground_TV/status/1722926764865843403
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Nov 10, 2023 21:55
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Laughing Zealot posted:Boy, things are truly gone to hell when this guy is making sensible points. Worst guy you know makes a valid point. Sadly, given Musks alignment with the Right Wing, wouldn't be surprised if one of his anti-Semitic friends put this in his head.
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Nov 10, 2023 22:09
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https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1723073866434478114 I can't believe this keeps happening!
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Nov 10, 2023 23:10
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Alchenar posted:Everyone trying to claim that Israel or Hama's always wanted this is completely off the mark. This is a classic case study in uncontrolled escalation: Hamas had catastrophic success in their attack and public sentiment in Israel has shifted so much that the only course the government can take is one of overwhelming retaliation. Yeah I go back and forth on some aspects of how this escalated, particular wrt the aims/results of 10/7. I don't think Hamas expected to collapse an entire sector of Israeli defenses, on the other hand they went after many of the people in charge of that sector, going after many of them at their homes, so they definitely did intend to very heavily disrupt the ability to respond to attacks in that region at minimum. Still I'd be surprised if they expected a runaway success and the total defensive/security collapse that they got. Conversely they no doubt expected a response, but definitely not that Israel would try to completely destroy Gaza city and exterminate Hamas. Just from taking the hostages we can infer that they intended 1) to continue to exist and 2) to trade hostages for concessions and 3) hopefully even trade hostages for Israeli restraint. Hamas might well have expected some kind of Israeli incursion and indeed had been preparing for exactly that for years. With that said, the scale of the barrage Hamas and other groups fired in the opening day was large enough that they knew it would provoke a major response of Israeli strikes. Between the ground attack and the thousands of rockets fired, there was no way that wasn't going to escalate in a pretty significant way, still I share your feeling that even relative to their intentions the situation really escalated rapidly out of their control
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Nov 10, 2023 23:17
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Every serious commentator converged rapidly on the obvious aim which was to derail Israeli normalisation with Saudi Arabia and make the point that Israel cannot go forwards in the world without the Palestine issue being resolved. The miscalculation is that Hamas forgot they they are not synonymous with Palestine and that nobody other than Iran really wants them to exist. They wanted a fight, they didn't want an existential struggle.
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Nov 10, 2023 23:49
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Laughing Zealot posted:Boy, things are truly gone to hell when this guy is making sensible points. I believe the parsimonious read here is "the effects of piling violence on violence are so obvious even this idiot understands it."
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Nov 11, 2023 00:01
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Alchenar posted:Every serious commentator converged rapidly on the obvious aim which was to derail Israeli normalisation with Saudi Arabia and make the point that Israel cannot go forwards in the world without the Palestine issue being resolved. Why wouldn't they? Isn't the entire point that the conditions in gaza were untenable? By forcing this reaction they're shifting international perspectives on the entire issue and gradually making Israel a pariah
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Nov 11, 2023 01:52
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Vahakyla posted:Also, clashes and disagreements did not start at the birth of Israel. okay yeah, point conceded on the centuries thing. 1823 or earlier obviously counts (and it would be nice if Haganah et al won out)
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Nov 11, 2023 02:10
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Grip it and rip it posted:Why wouldn't they? Isn't the entire point that the conditions in gaza were untenable? By forcing this reaction they're shifting international perspectives on the entire issue and gradually making Israel a pariah The conditions in gaza suck, but they aren't untenable at all. There was no great looming catastrophe that forced their hand - that was Israel's problem, things in fact looked so stable that they took their eye off the ball. Anyway, some public opinion research in Israel: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/51431 Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 08:57
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Grip it and rip it posted:Why wouldn't they? Isn't the entire point that the conditions in gaza were untenable? By forcing this reaction they're shifting international perspectives on the entire issue and gradually making Israel a pariah I have never seen anything to suggest that either Hamas or Israel care so much about international opinion that they would sacrifice tangible, real world things in Gaza or the West Bank to affect it. I just don’t believe the PR tail is wagging the dog. Instead I think they do what they do for reasons that make sense to them - not us - that are rooted in their daily lives and local conditions and them try and spin whatever happens in whatever way is most advantageous. This is why we see Hamas spokesmen denying they killed any civilians on Oct 7 when this all kicked off with highly visible evidence and videos, and the Israeli ambassador showing up with a yellow star on his arm and pissing off everyone at the UN. They’re not doing poo poo because of how we or our governments or fellow citizens might feel about it, how our sympathy might be engaged. We’re not that important. E: for clarity, I give these as examples because in both cases they’re not really effective ways of swaying international sympathies. They’re both really crude. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 09:54
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