|
I said come in! posted:lmao I have a hole like that beneath my own house. These are normal, or should I be on the look out for hamas in and around Seattle? A hole beneath your house is actually the criteria for being considered a member of Hamas. I am sorry to hear about your new and extremely personally dangerous political affiliation.
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 05:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 01:54 |
|
|
Viller posted:What Hezbollah is doing in Israel would be an act of war for any other country. Hezbollah isn't a country. The Sean fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Nov 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 05:24
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:I saw a thing on instagram about helping people in gaza through giving them an esim for their phones so they have internet access. But this seems like a very bad idea if youre American? Wanted to make sure this isnt something that will result in a very quick visit from the CIA? It won't do anything, that's not how it works
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 07:26
|
|
|
Spuckuk posted:Evangelicals really aren't much of a thing in Europe though. Europe got a place that they could stash their Jewish populations, and now the support is just fiated
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 07:36
|
|
|
That hole was in a child's room! Look how evil Hamas is! Could that be a safe shelter for a child in a city that is currently and historically bombed regularly by Israel? No.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 08:24
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:Isaac Chotiner got a West Bank settler leader for an interview. Honestly, those aren't even the worst parts of it. Here's the bits I would have quoted: quote:There’s a Palestinian slogan that has become very controversial: “From the river to the sea,” which means from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. It’s controversial because it would include all the land that currently makes up Israel. But you’re saying from the river to the— Just look at this poo poo. She's not even talking about ancient Jewish heritage or whatever: for her, the settler enterprise was a religious awakening, and she quite honestly believes that the Jews are entitled to Greater Israel because God gave those lands to the Jews first, and that overrides any other claim anyone might have for any reason. Notice also the complete lack of any concern at all for Palestinian civilians. She's not frothing with hatred toward them, but she has absolutely zero sympathy. She doesn't give a poo poo whether they're there or not. If they're willing to accept being permanent second-class citizens living under Jewish dominion with no political rights, then she's fine with them being there. If they're not willing to accept Jewish rule and apartheid, if they present the slightest obstacle to the Jewish state, then she absolutely does not give the slightest poo poo what happens to them. Whether they're oppressed, forcibly removed, or outright slaughtered, she isn't bothered by whatever happens to "the enemy". Even if children are being butchered, they're the "children of the enemy" and therefore have to be killed for the sake of her children. It's sickening.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 08:24
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:The secret-Christian-death-cult stuff is talking about a particular strain of Christian Zionism which is preoccupied with apocalyptic prophecy: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/american-evangelicals-israel-gaza/ I grew up going to various evangelical churches (and thankfully got away from it). It wasn't just death cult stuff and trying to bring about the apocalypse, the pastors would preach that America itself is prosperous because we support Israel. I wish I could remember the exact scripture they quoted, it stuck out as bizarre to me even as a child. But essentially it was a verse (or verses) they interpreted to mean that anyone who supported the Israelis would themselves be blessed by God and prosper. I can't say exactly how widespread or mainstream that belief is in protestant/evangelical circles, but I thought it worth mentioning as it does exist. That line of thought would also be palatable to more people than "we want the world to end" and result in unwavering support for Israel too. Helping Israel is helping yourself because God will bless you/your country if you do. And not supporting Israel may mean you lose God's favor so why would you ever stop? Edit: Aha, I found the verse I'd hear all the drat time: Genesis 12: 1-3 posted:Now the Lord had said to Abram: Edit 2: Finished the article and they did seem to touch on that aspect of it. I think it's worth emphasizing that this was the way it was presented to us more so than trying to end the world, but I'm sure that varies based on who's doing the preaching. But it seems the new Speaker of the House preaches this as well, so I guess it's a little more mainstream now! Hakarne fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Nov 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 09:50
|
|
|
Another point in explaining why the west is a big supporter of Israel is that they're a military and economic outpost that, largely, looks like us. Yes the antisemites go ballistic at the notion, and from the other direction to be sure the Jews are composed of a far richer and more complicated (and even outside of Israeli state racism, far more internally contentious!) diversity of peoples, when the post-WW2 west looks at Israel we more or less see a fellow white state in the western mold. Often this is sanitized with terms like "only democracy in the middle east" but that's what it really boils down to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 10:49
|
|
|
386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:I guess it’s really more of an Anglo thing right? I shouldn’t conflate the English-speaking world and the West. I know it was a big thing with the British. Evangelicals aren't a big thing in UK politics, also the UK is vastly less religious in general than the USA. Right wing support of Israel in the UK is largely based around islamophobia. Spuckuk fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Nov 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 11:02
|
|
|
The main argument I hear in favour of supporting Israel is that, without western support, Israel would be destroyed and slaughtered by its neighbours. This goes some way to explaining why support for Israel roughly doubled in the UK after October 7th - looking vulnerable and having people calling for its destruction is paradoxically beneficial to Israel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 12:10
|
|
|
Spuckuk posted:
This goes for all of Europe btw
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 12:10
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:The main argument I hear in favour of supporting Israel is that, without western support, Israel would be destroyed and slaughtered by its neighbours. This goes some way to explaining why support for Israel roughly doubled in the UK after October 7th - looking vulnerable and having people calling for its destruction is paradoxically beneficial to Israel. But it hasn't. The vast amount of people now in the UK seem to favour a ceasfire and the protests about it have reached about half a million + people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 12:18
|
|
|
Doesn't the UK have around 4 million muslims? It makes sense those guys are upset
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 12:22
|
|
|
Most people support a ceasefire because the previous status quo, while not good, at least didn't result in thousands of children and civilians getting killed directly. There's at least a hope of the situation improving while there isn't active conflict. The continued existence of Israel is popular; I don't think any meaningful number of people are arguing for a one state solution where that state isn't Israel. They're instead arguing that Israel needs to stop placing Jewish supremacy above its claims to democracy and freedom. If Israel is worth anything, it can do that and still be Israel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 12:34
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:But it hasn't. The vast amount of people now in the UK seem to favour a ceasfire and the protests about it have reached about half a million + people. Eh, it's a mix and 50-50 at best. https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Sky_Israel-Palestine_231108_W.pdf. You also have to be careful how you define 'ceasefire' because half of that is 'I support Israel's offensive but they should give civilians a few days to get out of the way'. The plurality opinion seems to be 'well this sucks and I don't like people dying but I have no idea what can/should be done about it'. E: on aggregate I'd say that poll says the UK population is actually either actively or passively pro-Israel by some margin. (and just to define that, while the poll has a higher margin of sympathy for Palestine than for Israel, I'm saying that once you add in all the 'both sides equally' and 'don't knows' and look at their answers as basically being happy with the status quo or not thinking the UK should get involved and count that as being pro-status quo Israel then you end up with that) Alchenar fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Nov 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 12:55
|
|
|
The president of Israel held up a pristine copy of Mein Kampf claiming it came from a child's room in Gaza. They really are shameless. edit: lmao oh my god https://x.com/Devon_OnEarth/status/1723672119999902006?s=20 Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Nov 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 13:02
|
|
|
Imagine Nazi ISIS. That’s what Palestinian children are. Do you get it yet? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 13:56
|
|
|
Don't think it was posted yet. A very interesting first-hand account of how Israel warns people that their homes are about to be destroyed for no apparent reason. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079 quote:"I'm speaking with you from Israeli intelligence," a man said down the line, according to Mahmoud. I doubt they try very hard to find someone like Mahmoud if the first person they pick is less cooperative, but it's surreal that they patiently waited for people to leave their homes only to make them watch their lives destroyed. Also, interesting that they have someone with perfect Arabic for those calls but not for the calls they claim they intercepted.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 14:30
|
|
|
Is there any evidence they do it frequently (or indeed more than once)? All I've seen is that one story.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 14:33
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:Don't think it was posted yet. A very interesting first-hand account of how Israel warns people that their homes are about to be destroyed for no apparent reason. the audience for the 'calls' isn't people who know even a single word of arabic. they could be in farsi and it would make no difference to the people they are meant to sway
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
'Door knock' bombs are the standard. Recent events lead me to believe thats a puff piece for israeli intelligence and the claim that they minimize civillian casualties.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 14:43
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:The main argument I hear in favour of supporting Israel is that, without western support, Israel would be destroyed and slaughtered by its neighbours. This goes some way to explaining why support for Israel roughly doubled in the UK after October 7th - looking vulnerable and having people calling for its destruction is paradoxically beneficial to Israel. Not just people, but also states. We have Iran doing this while also trying to surround Israel with proxies from all sides. This is another reason why Israelis want to continue occupying the West Bank / annex the Jordan valley. If they were to pull out now, how long before we have Iranian missile launch sites 7 miles from Tel Aviv? Israelis can be aggressive assholes, but this is also due to their paranoia caused by a combination of their current geopolitical situation and the collective memory of the Holocaust. They know that without US support they'd be hosed (again). I think this can only be prevented if they get some other type of security guarantees, but what kind I don't know.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 14:54
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:Israelis can be aggressive assholes, but this is also due to their paranoia caused by a combination of their current geopolitical situation and the collective memory of the Holocaust. It's not really the collective memory of the Holocaust as much as an exploitation of it. Survivors were always a minority of the population and anyone in Israel who is afraid they'll be holocausted is as detached from reality as the kinds of people who go to school board meetings to oppose the kitty litters boxes that don't exist. The survivors are treated poorly to this day and a lot of the money that was supposed to go them was stolen by the Israeli government and a New York based organization: quote:In a testament to how invisible survivors are in Israeli society, and how apathetic the public is to their plight, Katz’s report made absolutely no waves in the Israeli media. It should be news that Holocaust survivors are being left to die in poverty, all while their legacy is used as a justification for the existence of the nation that has so badly neglected them. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-abuses-holocaust-survivors
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:07
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:It's not really the collective memory of the Holocaust as much as an exploitation of it. Survivors were always a minority of the population and anyone in Israel who is afraid they'll be holocausted is as detached from reality as the kinds of people who go to school board meetings to oppose the kitty litters boxes that don't exist. It's not just 'survivors' who have this collective memory. And I disagree with you that it can't happen again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:10
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:lmao I have a hole like that beneath my own house. These are normal, or should I be on the look out for hamas in and around Seattle? It leads to the treasure of One-Eyed Willy. You should investigate and donate it to Palestinian charities. Newspapers are generally obsessed with secret tunnels because it lets them print full page cross sections of Osama's mountain fortress which might also be maps for a Metroidvania game. Vietnam is another one that comes to mind. There's something about tunnels that triggers brainworms in many, maybe because it's something that you can't see from surface, only speculate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:14
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:It's not just 'survivors' who have this collective memory. And I disagree with you that it can't happen again. Ok then you're wrong. I wasn't sharing an opinion in my reply to you I was telling you how it is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:20
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:The president of Israel held up a pristine copy of Mein Kampf claiming it came from a child's room in Gaza. They really are shameless. So I've developed a bit of a hobby looking into Israeli propaganda in Arabic. Now the post-it note on this reads more accurately: - Born in Braunau - Then he left for Passau in Germany - They moved to the outskirts of Linz after that - Here his father retired It definitely doesn't make sense to have it on the page to my mind, but then I'm not much into Mein Kampf so who knows. But where did the writer get the biographical detail from? I checked Wikipedia in three languages. The early bio of Hitler in the Hebrew version doesn't really track for it. Arabic is a bit closer:  It talks about moving from Passau to Leonding near Linz. But it's not really tied with his birth in Braunau nor his father's retirement. So I checked English wikipedia and it's basically a perfect match:  Within one paragraph, we get his birth in Braunau, going to Passau, moving to the environs of Linz and his father's retirement. So, theories: 1) Some kid in Gaza reading this wants a bit more background on Hitler, so goes to English Wikipedia to read about Hitler and then transcribes the placenames into Arabic incorrectly (he doesn't get Braunau or Passau correct); which is possible if you've only ever seen the terms in roman letters but this all strikes me as pretty unlikely 2) Someone in IDF intelligence or hasbara response team x gets a request for extremist literature because 'woah, the Nazi talking lines are working! Let's pump'. They get a copy of Mein Kampf in Arabic, go through the first bits but want to make it feel like it's really being used. Get a post-it note in there! So they get a polyglot to google some basic facts about Hitler. Maybe they're fluent in all three languages. Maybe they prefer English for history. Maybe the tract was provided by an English speaker and passed through for translation. Given Israel's record of falsifying convenient propaganda over the last few weeks, theory two feels much more compelling, especially because of the wikipedia tract. Verdict: another crude forgery.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:35
|
|
|
Private Speech posted:Is there any evidence they do it frequently (or indeed more than once)? All I've seen is that one story. There were reports that after Oct 7, many residential buildings were bombed without any warning whatsoever, but my understanding is they still do that to some extent. We know, for example, that they 'warned' some hospitals in advance. Rigged Death Trap posted:'Door knock' bombs are the standard. Maybe in that particular case they literally knew there were no Hamas fighters in the area and basically wanted to demolish those buildings in advance, so Hamas have fewer places to hide later. In any case, it doesn't read like a puff piece to me. It's absolutely atrocious what Mahmoud and his neighbours had to go through, and you know they are the lucky ones.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:39
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:There were reports that after Oct 7, many residential buildings were bombed without any warning whatsoever, but my understanding is they still do that to some extent. We know, for example, that they 'warned' some hospitals in advance. Its the bits about the competence of the people calling him that im suspecting. Perfect Arabic, that they talked to him for a full hour, that they gave him an exact time and place (2 hours from the call), that they singled him out specifically and that even with his battery dead they found other means to contact him. quote:Mahmoud asked the voice on the phone to fire a warning shot to prove this was real. If those still sleeping did not hear the screams from the streets then they would hear the shot, he thought. Like what is this Hollywood crap That they bomb Palestinians is known. That the IDF is a most moral, hyper competent super force is something they like to project. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Nov 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:43
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:It's not just 'survivors' who have this collective memory. And I disagree with you that it can't happen again. Kinda odd to put quotes around Holocaust survivors, while also ignoring that they're being neglected and stolen from. If they're all so concerned that it might "happen again", then why the indifference towards the people who it actually happened to?
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 15:58
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:Kinda odd to put quotes around Holocaust survivors, while also ignoring that they're being neglected and stolen from. If they're all so concerned that it might "happen again", then why the indifference towards the people who it actually happened to? The only point I wanted to make is that collective memory is a national thing and does not die out when the actual survivors have all passed away. I added quotes because it can be argued that not just those who had seen the camps from the inside were survivors (but I'll retract if it causes confusion). That some concentration camp survivors have been neglected does not change collective memory. Like, maybe there's some examples to find of former slaves who were treated badly within African American communities, but that does not change how African Americans remember things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 16:45
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:The only point I wanted to make is that collective memory is a national thing and does not die out when the actual survivors have all passed away. I added quotes because it can be argued that not just those who had seen the camps from the inside were survivors (but I'll retract if it causes confusion). That some concentration camp survivors have been neglected does not change collective memory. Like, maybe there's some examples to find of former slaves who were treated badly within African American communities, but that does not change how African Americans remember things. The collective memory you refer to is propaganda. It's like cops being in constant fear that anyone could have a weapon. It's an ideology of victimhood instilled for deeply cynical reasons used to justify a fascist ethnostate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 17:14
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:The collective memory you refer to is propaganda. It's like cops being in constant fear that anyone could have a weapon. It's an ideology of victimhood instilled for deeply cynical reasons used to justify a fascist ethnostate. It would only be propaganda if the holocaust didn't happen, but it did.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 17:17
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:It would only be propaganda if the holocaust didn't happen, but it did. It's propaganda in the sense that there was general indifference to it for decades after the war and that the "collective memory" was ginned up later to be used as a cudgel. It's why the plight of survivors is invisible to Israeli society at large. Thinking it has any chance of happening again - to Israelis - is propaganda. The Holocaust happened and was one of the worst crimes in history we're talking about its misappropriation to shield Israel from condemnation for their crimes. Black Americans are still living through their deprivation it's not some distant memory it's only changed by degree. Israelis are the dominant power they are not in any existential danger.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 17:21
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:It's propaganda in the sense that there was general indifference to it for decades after the war and that the "collective memory" was ginned up later to be used as a cudgel. It's why the plight of survivors is invisible to Israeli society at large. Thinking it has any chance of happening again - to Israelis - is propaganda. The Holocaust happened and was one of the worst crimes in history we're talking about its misappropriation to shield Israel from condemnation for their crimes. About your last sentence -- they are indeed by far the dominant power, but that's completely dependent on the support from one country. So it all depends on how reliable the US is as a partner. We have Republican ideology swifting back to non-interventionism, with the result that Ukrainians are likely getting abandoned soon. Israel is still the exception of course, but it's not completely unthinkable one day this will be different.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 17:36
|
|
|
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/12/israel-gaza-war-live-israeli-army-surrounding-al-quds-hospital the IDF is forcing patients in al-Shifa hospital into the streets. This will be a death sentence for hundreds of wounded Palestinians, but that is the point for the IDF.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 17:51
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:It's propaganda in the sense that there was general indifference to it for decades after the war and that the "collective memory" was ginned up later to be used as a cudgel. It's why the plight of survivors is invisible to Israeli society at large. Thinking it has any chance of happening again - to Israelis - is propaganda. The Holocaust happened and was one of the worst crimes in history we're talking about its misappropriation to shield Israel from condemnation for their crimes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:About your last sentence -- they are indeed by far the dominant power, but that's completely dependent on the support from one country. So it all depends on how reliable the US is as a partner. We have Republican ideology swifting back to non-interventionism, with the result that Ukrainians are likely getting abandoned soon. Israel is still the exception of course, but it's not completely unthinkable one day this will be different. Ukraine isn't being abandoned, by anyone. We're near another election and that's when new decisions will be made.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:Not just people, but also states. We have Iran doing this while also trying to surround Israel with proxies from all sides. Israel was able to manage just fine without US support for the first 25 or so years of its existence, winning multiple wars against pretty much all of its neighbors at the same time. The US government didn't really start giving meaningful support to Israel until after the Six-Day War; before that, they were playing the part of a mostly neutral actor in hopes of winning over the Arab states. The existence of other countries in the region Israel doesn't get along well with isn't a justification for occupying or annexing other people's land, especially when they're also oppressing those people or even trying to drive them off the land whatsoever. The cultural memory of the Holocaust has certainly been used as justification for all sorts of virulent nationalist atrocities, but that doesn't mean it's actually a valid excuse. And if the existence of potentially hostile actors nearby justifies these atrocities, then wouldn't it also justify Hamas' atrocities? How many Israeli artillery pieces and military aircraft are there within 7 miles of Gaza City? Unlike Israel, Gazans don't even have a way to defend themselves against these bombardments. As a Jewish person myself, who was raised with the vivid cultural memory of the Holocaust, I can say with absolute loving confidence that our past history of facing genocide is not an excuse or justification to commit genocide against others. Yes, the Jewish people have faced great injustice over the years. But that does not give Israeli right-wingers the justification to commit great injustice against other ethnic groups, not even if we wrap it up in euphemisms like "security guarantees". The Palestinians don't get any security guarantees!
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 01:54 |
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Israel was able to manage just fine without US support for the first 25 or so years of its existence, winning multiple wars against pretty much all of its neighbors at the same time. The US government didn't really start giving meaningful support to Israel until after the Six-Day War; before that, they were playing the part of a mostly neutral actor in hopes of winning over the Arab states. Things can change. Back then Arab states were very weak. They're still not strong, but it's not as if one day in the future they can't get at least as strong as Israel. Warfare is also changing -- who would've guessed a few years back that the Ukrainian military was now tied with the Russian one? But my point (also raised by others) remains, all those actors in the Middle East outside of Palestine who continue conspiring against Israelis or spreading antisemitism aren't actually helping the Palestinian cause, but worsening it. The rest of your post I agree with, none of it should be used to justify war crimes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2023 18:58
|
|