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Reik posted:I think most people would agree that having a country run by fundamentalist zealots is bad not only for their own country but for all of their neighbors. Like how Israel is run by Netanyahu. Netanyahu isn't a fundamentalist zealot, he's just a scumbag who formed a coalition with them in order to keep power/keep out of jail.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:46
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Netanyahu isn't a fundamentalist zealot, he's just a scumbag who formed a coalition with them in order to keep power/keep out of jail. Yes he is. Every single speech he's given since October 7th sounds like something you'd read in a Warhammer 40k novel. https://news.yahoo.com/netanyahu-evokes-religious-prophecy-israel-204832151.html quote:“We are the people of light, they are the people of darkness—and light shall triumph over darkness,” Netanyahu said, according to a translation from i24NEWS in Israel. “Our war against Hamas is a test for all of humanity it is a struggle between the axis of evil of Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas, and the axis of freedom and progress.” The comments evoked a controversial tweet that his office posted and then deleted on X, or Twitter, last week after a deadly blast hit a hospital in Gaza. Netanyahu went on: “It is now a time to come together for one purpose to storm ahead to achieve victory in joint with joint forces and a profound belief in justice, a profound belief in the eternity of the Jewish people. We shall realize the prophecy of Isaiah,” he said.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:52
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Yeah no, it's weird to me to say Netanyahu isn't a fundamentalist. He has decades of quotes advocating for the extermination of the Palestinians. He is absolutely a monster.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:54
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Paladinus posted:The IDF have shared a video that they claim shows Hamas militants attacking an Israeli tank from the entrance of the Al-Quds hospital. Whether the footage is convincing doesn't really matter. They've already achieved their objective with that release: to get you focusing on the footage itself, rather than the part at the end where they opened fire on the entrance to the hospital with guns and tank cannons, killing 21 people: quote:"The combat team of the 188th Brigade, which included armored, engineering, infantry troops and with the assistance of the Air Force, responded with fire and fired shells toward the sources of the fire. During the incident, approximately 21 terrorists were killed and there were no casualties to our forces," read the statement. By itself, this line looks innocuous. But in context? Remember that the very same press release claims that "the source of the fire" was two people mixed into a crowd of civilians at the entrance of the hospital. Yet they claim that when they opened fire toward the "source of the fire", they killed only terrorists? Something doesn't add up. Either they're lying about the militants mixing into civilian crowds to use as human shields, or they're lying when they say they only killed "terrorists".
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Nov 13, 2023 17:55
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Main Paineframe posted:Whether the footage is convincing doesn't really matter. They've already achieved their objective with that release: to get you focusing on the footage itself, rather than the part at the end where they opened fire on the entrance to the hospital with guns and tank cannons, killing 21 people: Yes, that's a good point. I don't know if the video shows them opening return fire and at whom exactly, but the lack of follow-up footage suggests it probably wasn't surgical.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Netanyahu isn't a fundamentalist zealot, he's just a scumbag who formed a coalition with them in order to keep power/keep out of jail. He's... also a fundamentalist zealot. His fundamentalism isn't particularly religious, it's more a racial supremacism inherited from his father. Netanyahu is probably more than any other living politician the architect or father of Israel's current situation in the West Bank because he fundamentally believes it's Jewish land. He has spent more than 16 years - more than 20% of Israel's existence - as its PM with another ten or so on the fringes of power (cf his challenge to Sharon in the mid-2000s) as a chief Likud figure. He's used his position for these 25 years to render the two state solution impossible by expanding settlements as widely as possible (not much difference between him and Sharon in this regard). He's a rabid racist: "Max Hastings posted:At Bibi Netanyahu’s dinner table in Jerusalem, I listened with crawling dismay to Bibi talking about the future of his country. ‘In the next war, if we do it right we’ll have a chance to get all the Arabs out,’ he said. ‘We can clear the West Bank, sort out Jerusalem.’ He joked about the Golani Brigade, the Israeli infantry force in which so many men were North African or Yemenite Jews. ‘They’re okay as long as they’re led by white officers.’ That's from 'Going to the Wars' by Max Hastings, Kindle loc 3534 (about 60% through the book if you've got it); around 1979 I think. This isn't some mere political pragmatist. He is cunning. Driven. And believes in the superiority of his race - and my read is that he has a view of castes for Jews too - with a religious fervour. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 18:08
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Reik posted:Yes he is. Every single speech he's given since October 7th sounds like something you'd read in a Warhammer 40k novel. That's a new turn from him, and even now his rhetoric, and conduct is less religious than that of his coalition partners. He doesn't wear a yarmulke, he eats treif, he isn't a religious zealot and hasn't cultivated an image as one. I said come in! posted:Yeah no, it's weird to me to say Netanyahu isn't a fundamentalist. He has decades of quotes advocating for the extermination of the Palestinians. He is absolutely a monster. Sure if you want to say "fundamentalist Zionist zealot" or something like that. I took "fundamentalist zealot" to mean religious, and he's the secular face of the Zionist right. To me it sounds like calling Donald Trump a "fundamentalist zealot."
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Nov 13, 2023 18:13
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I said come in! posted:Yeah no, it's weird to me to say Netanyahu isn't a fundamentalist. He has decades of quotes advocating for the extermination of the Palestinians. He is absolutely a monster. I think it's a problem fundamental to defining what religious fundamentalism is. Netanyahu uses the trappings of religion to justify his actions, but he sure as poo poo doesn't act like someone who actually believes God is watching. It's like all the fundamentalists who get caught committing some horrible act, or just adultery, like brother you sure act like you don't think hell is real. Ultimately the motivations are largely irrelevant, but it is useful to separate out Judaism from Israel in that sense, and to say that strictly following the Torah doesn't mean you support slaughter.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:14
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Okay that is fair and a good explanation. Not religious, but still a horrible person with a huge desire to carry out genocide. He needs to be outdated and tried for war crimes. He can't be allowed to be free to run Israel, both for the safety and future of Palestinians, and Israel.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:18
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CuddleCryptid posted:I think it's a problem fundamental to defining what religious fundamentalism is. Netanyahu uses the trappings of religion to justify his actions, That's the thing, he doesn't really do that, at least not compared to the religious right in Israel. The biggest trappings of Jewish religion in Israeli society are covering your head (he doesn't), keeping kosher (he doesn't), observing the Sabbath (he doesn't). There are many many Israeli politicians who do all these things, Ben Gvir is one of them, Netanyahu is not. He's used a lot of Bible Talk lately but he generally does not put effort into the appearance that he is religiously observent, much less a "fundamentalist zealot." Even after October 7 he made a public speech on A Saturday, the first Israeli PM to do it in over three decades. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 18:24
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https://twitter.com/Apex_WW/status/1724099355483812227 Didn't they say Hezbollah would fully enter if Israel launched a ground invasion into Gaza?
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Nov 13, 2023 18:24
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ummel posted:Yeah, I don't think anyone should trust a YouTube channel with Pepes gunning down crying Wojaks with the title, "How Iraqis got so good at smoking American soldiers." That video is good.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:33
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/Apex_WW/status/1724099355483812227 Yes, they have been pretty big cowards during all of this, and were kinda the one and only hope for rescuing the Palestinians. There's no hope for Gaza.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:33
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Civilized Fishbot posted:That's the thing, he doesn't really do this very much, at least not compared to the religious right in Israel. The biggest trappings of Jewish religion in Israeli society are covering your head (he doesn't), keeping kosher (he doesn't), observing the Sabbath (he doesn't). There are many many Israeli politicians who do these things, Ben Gvir is one of them, Netanyahu is not. Yeah it's mostly a cover imo. I don't really have any evidence for this but I feel like for things you described that is more of a tactical thing for him than anything. He understands that he is the person who goes around and gets photographed with world leaders, and having external signifies of being actually Jewish would be off-putting to international supporters who see Jewish people as a sect of Christians. Or he just doesn't like doing it because obeying God's word means that there is someone higher than Netanyahu.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:36
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/Apex_WW/status/1724099355483812227 I said come in! posted:Yes, they have been pretty big cowards during all of this, and were kinda the one and only hope for rescuing the Palestinians. There's no hope for Gaza.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:37
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the hope for Gaza is that Israel decides the combination of miscellaneous casualties and bad press for X0,000 civilians killed is getting a little high, declares victory, and goes home possibly annexing more of Gaza as a dmz in the process this isn't a good outcome but it's a improvement over, you know
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Nov 13, 2023 18:37
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So there’s a ton of foreigners traveling to fight in Ukraine. Where do ppl go to fight Israel? Lebanon?
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Nov 13, 2023 18:40
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very convenient for Netanyahu that this war could last "years" and we can't change horses in the middle of the race
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Nov 13, 2023 18:40
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I said come in! posted:Yes, they have been pretty big cowards during all of this, and were kinda the one and only hope for rescuing the Palestinians. There's no hope for Gaza. They're moving the goalposts for internal consumption. If Israel actually did eliminate Hamas, they'd come up with a new red line.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:18
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Civilized Fishbot posted:That's a new turn from him, and even now his rhetoric, and conduct is less religious than that of his coalition partners. If his politics mirror that of a fundamentalist zealot, it sounds like a distinction without a difference.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:26
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CuddleCryptid posted:Yeah it's mostly a cover imo. I don't really have any evidence for this but I feel like for things you described that is more of a tactical thing for him than anything. He understands that he is the person who goes around and gets photographed with world leaders, and having external signifies of being actually Jewish would be off-putting to international supporters who see Jewish people as a sect of Christians. I don't think we need to interpret his not being strictly religious as a political ploy or indicator of psychological defect, as if a more honest or less hubristic version of himself would be frum. Most people, most Jews, and most Israeli Jews are not strictly religious. He's not strictly religious because, like most people, he has little or no personal desire to be, and politically it wouldn't be helpful because the core of his platform is "I'll keep you safe" not "I am a Torah Jew and I will restore Torah Judaism" Reik posted:If his politics mirror that of a fundamentalist zealot, it sounds like a distinction without a difference. His politics don't mirror that of a fundamentalist zealot, it's like the difference between Nixon and George W Bush - or between Elon Musk and Father Coughlin. Two different kinds of right-wing villain who constantly compromise and make common cause with each other. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 19:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't think we need to interpret his not being strictly religious as a political ploy or indicator of psychological defect, as if a more honest or less hubristic version of himself would be frum. Most people, most Jews, and most Israeli Jews are not strictly religious. So his politics don't mirror that of a fundamentalist zealot, he just preaches that his people are the children of light engaged in a holy war to fulfill a prophecy?
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Nov 13, 2023 19:43
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It's pretty simple; Lebanon doesn't want its civilians blown up, and if war breaks out with Israel that will be the first thing they do. Better to keep a slow escalation of munitions and making the border completely uninhabitable for Israel, in terms of not having your hospitals and schools destroyed. In public they'll have an evolving red line, in private the red line will be "Israel pulls the trigger on attacking us." At that point there's no reason not to commit. I can't really complain about it personally; Hezbollah has objectively done more than any other country in the world in terms of preventing an ongoing genocide. They've taken out significant targets & have forced Israel to assign manpower to the north. It's far more than what the US-controlled/aligned Arab nations have done, and its exponentially more than the western Genocide Caucus are willing to even contemplate. The only country that has done more in comparison to what they're capable of would be the Houthis, who have taken hard to the cause & are managing to get missiles past three intercepting nations (Saudi Arabia, United States, Israel) and into Israeli cities, from a significantly further distance away. The US threatened them to not fire missiles and they immediately fired missiles. SA intercepted a missile and they immediately threatened a revival of the war. Bless the hillbillies bullying billion dollar armies. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 19:45
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Reik posted:So his politics don't mirror that of a fundamentalist zealot, he just preachers that his people are the children of light engaged in a holy war to fulfill a prophecy? If his politics mirrored that of a fundamentalist zealot - like Ben xhe would put in bare-minimum effort to communicate to people that he follows the basics of the religion. Instead he's very well known as someone who leads a secular lifestyle. His Biblical rhetoric at this time of (self-produced) crisis is no different from when Trump saved around a Bible during the protests of 2020, in order to appeal to a sort of White Christian "law and order" ideal. Nobody got confused and thought Trump was actually a fanatical or zealous Christian, just that he was reaching out to people who were. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 19:52
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Paladinus posted:Yes, that's a good point. I don't know if the video shows them opening return fire and at whom exactly, but the lack of follow-up footage suggests it probably wasn't surgical. The video doesn't show very much at all, and the image quality leaves a lot to be desired. It's basically just these two images, along with a color video of a guy with a long thin object walking along the street alongside what Israel has marked as the hospital entrance.   There's no actual video evidence of any of Israel's claims or insinuations. They don't show the projectile actually coming from the hospital, they don't show militants forcing their way into a crowd of a civilians, they don't show militants entering the hospital. All they really show is that a smoke trail labeled "projectile" traveled along the street in front of the hospital, presumably toward a featureless blob labeled "tank" in front of the hospital. Reik posted:So his politics don't mirror that of a fundamentalist zealot, he just preaches that his people are the children of light engaged in a holy war to fulfill a prophecy? Typically, Netanyahu just preaches racism, not religious fundamentalism. He'll occasionally halfassedly cite Old Testament quotes to impress the religious wings of the Likud coalition, but the actual religious fundamentalists are mostly focusing on religious issues like expanding the power and jurisdiction of rabbinical courts, preventing any limitations on welfare for self-proclaimed Torah scholars, and making sure all religious fundamentalists are exempt from the draft. Netanyahu himself is quite secular, especially compared to the multiple religious factions in the right-wing coalition.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:55
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Civilized Fishbot posted:If his politics mirrored that of a fundamentalist zealot, he would put in bare-minimum effort to communicate to people that he follows the basics of the religion. Instead he's very well known as someone who leads a secular lifestyle. You are saying that you don't think Netanyahu is a religious zealot "in his heart of hearts" or whatever and I'm saying he plays the part of one in politics. Secular people don't preach about fulfilling biblical prophecies.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:58
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Google Jeb Bush posted:the hope for Gaza is that Israel decides the combination of miscellaneous casualties and bad press for X0,000 civilians killed is getting a little high, declares victory, and goes home I really hope that they at least stop bombing the city now that they claim Hamas no longer controls it. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-has-lost-control-of-gaza-says-israeli-defense-minister/ Yoav Gallant posted:“There is no force of Hamas capable of stopping the IDF. The IDF is advancing to every point. The Hamas organization has lost control of Gaza. Terrorists are fleeing south. Civilians are looting Hamas bases. They have no confidence in the government,” says Gallant, after an assessment of the fighting. 
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Nov 13, 2023 20:14
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The idea that Hezbollah isn't prepared to open up a second front but is prepared to become the sole target of Israel's ire after the destruction of Hamas is absurd. Truly desperate statement that I'm honestly shocked is real. Yeah, it's important to understand just how superior the military forces of Israel is compared to every single neighbour of theirs. Hezbollah has a lot of dudes with RPGs but zero airforce or modern tanks. They could probably hurt Israel due to sheer numbers, but they could never defeat them, and the likely outcome of Hezbollah attacking israel in force would be, well, what we see in Gaza right now. Israel using artillery and aircraft to grind them into dust
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Nov 13, 2023 20:18
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I don't think it's clear-cut that Israel would confidently win a war against Hezbollah, regardless of equipment; Saudi Arabia has more money than god, and a country that's regarded as a rump bumpkin state successfully held them off even with intense US support. War is actually pretty hard against competent armies, and guerilla tactics are a force multiplier still underestimated to this day. Ukraine is trying to fight as a conventional army against a much better supplied army, and even they have managed to inflict severe setbacks. Would Lebanon be able to hold territory in Israel? Unlikely, and Iran would probably pull on their leash if they tried to existentially threaten a nuclear state, but they've already proven themselves once against Israel (And all reporting suggests that Israel learned the completely wrong lessons from that war). The actual threat, as always, is that Israel is uniquely focused on slaughtering civilians (even if it's just because they're terrified of ground combat), which is something non-psychopaths in countries that aren't wholly occupied generally do not want to happen to their people.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:26
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Reik posted:You are saying that you don't think Netanyahu is a religious zealot "in his heart of hearts" or whatever and I'm saying he plays the part of one in politics. Secular people don't preach about fulfilling biblical prophecies. No, he does not play the part of a religious zealot. He doesn't even wear a yarmulke! His Bible speeches are like Trump waving around the Bible in 2020. They are a highly cynical appeal to religiously-minded people, but even they know better than to infer Trump/Netanyahu is personally religious. He is not playing the part of religious zealot in Israeli politics.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:30
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Paladinus posted:I really hope that they at least stop bombing the city now that they claim Hamas no longer controls it. They wont, as far as the IDF is concerned all Gaza residents are hamas. Now that the IDF controls the information in and out of gaza, and true bloodbath is likely to begin. Israel is always going to have to contend with a resistance movement after this. Another one will just spring up after this current war is over, but that is what israel wants. each attempt gets israel one step close to expelling all arab from their land.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:34
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Paladinus posted:I really hope that they at least stop bombing the city now that they claim Hamas no longer controls it. Pretty sure they are in the mode of "every male age 16 (or plausibly deniable as such) or older is actually a terrorist" so, while Hamas no longer "controls" it they'll just keep genociding anyway. See their prior press release where they claimed Hamas fired from a crowd of civilians and the IDF opened fire and killed solely terrorists.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:40
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Paladinus posted:I really hope that they at least stop bombing the city now that they claim Hamas no longer controls it.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think there's almost no chance Israel stops until (at the very least) they kill the two men they've identified as bearing ultimate responsibility for the 10/7 attacks - letting them get away would essentially be an admission of defeat. That would presumably require them to breach deep into the tunnel system which will be difficult. Haven't they already said they'd killed one of them? Ravenfood posted:Pretty sure they are in the mode of "every male age 16 (or plausibly deniable as such) or older is actually a terrorist" so, while Hamas no longer "controls" it they'll just keep genociding anyway. It looks like they are aware of how bad it all looks and maybe, and again, I hope, it's enough to make them reconsider. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/fm-cohen-israel-has-2-3-weeks-before-international-pressure-for-ceasefire-becomes-significant/ quote:Speaking during a briefing to reporters, Cohen says that his diplomatic counterparts have emphasized humanitarian issues during the conversations he has held with them and some have requested that Israel seek a ceasefire, although they have not done so publicly. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 20:45
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Until the U.S. is dead serious about cutting ties with Israel, none of this will stay Israels hand. At least right now, so long as Joe Biden remains president, Israel gets to do whatever they want consequence free. I just don't see a reality where the U.S. does anything but write a strongly worded letter.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:58
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I said come in! posted:Until the U.S. is dead serious about cutting ties with Israel, none of this will stay Israels hand. At least right now, so long as Joe Biden remains president, Israel gets to do whatever they want consequence free. I just don't see a reality where the U.S. does anything but write a strongly worded letter. It's interesting you specifically single out Biden. Do you think this would change if someone else was president? I can't imagine any [realistic] presidential candidate for 2024 severing ties with Israel if this is still continuing. Hell, even if we visit the possibility of Sanders winning 2020, I can't imagine him severing ties with Israel either.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:04
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If the US wasn't pressuring Israel at all they'd be killing 100k by now and not 10k, the Israeli population is/was all for it. I know it's fun to rag on the imperialist US and EU but they definitely have an influence on Israeli behaviour even if they can't put a lid on it. Also, I think cheering on the Houthis for firing rockets at Israeli cities is a bit over the pale.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:11
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Civilized Fishbot posted:No, he does not play the part of a religious zealot. He doesn't even wear a yarmulke! Ok
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Nov 13, 2023 21:18
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kiminewt posted:If the US wasn't pressuring Israel at all they'd be killing 100k by now and not 10k What specifically is the 90% of their capability that you think they’re holding back?
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Nov 13, 2023 21:18
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Kalit posted:It's interesting you specifically single out Biden. Do you think this would change if someone else was president? I can't imagine any [realistic] presidential candidate for 2024 severing ties with Israel if this is still continuing. Hell, even if we visit the possibility of Sanders winning 2020, I can't imagine him severing ties with Israel either. Well Biden is our president for at least another term. So I don't really see a reason to focus on anyone else? But realistically you're probably right, that any other president would openly support genocide like Biden has.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:24
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