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Actually, how many people would even see money in mostly agricultural society?
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Nov 13, 2023 16:28
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classic move is that you force taxes to be paid in coinage so they see it at least once a year
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Nov 13, 2023 17:01
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As always, it depends. For instance the medieval Roman West largely becomes demonetized (everybody is paying taxes in kind and by corvee), while the East is still a monetized economy, though it goes through phases of greater and lesser specie availability.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:27
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Yeah it’s very hard to judge because 1) ancient literary sources don’t care about the topic (being written by citified well-off dudes who probably had little idea what the peasants do with their money) and 2) if you want to archeologically investigate coins, the places to do that are cities, villas, army forts, ie the places where you would expect a lot of money to be—you don’t usually go looking for random poor man’s farm from 2000 years ago, and you have a good chance of not finding it if you try. That said, we have authentic records of coin transactions from stuff like the Oxyrhyncus papyri. One of these for example records the lease, by Anteros, slave & agent of Gnaeus Pompeius Porus, to an Egyptian farmer Papus, of one red cow named Thayris, for a period of ten months. Papus is to pay ten artabas (as far as I can tell, something like 300 liters) of new wheat for the lease of the cow. If he doesn’t return it in good condition, however, he will have to immediately pay one hundred and eighty-seven drachmas of silver money from his own resources. Which seems like a lot although it’s hard to tell. The commentator here adduces other cow deals for which we have receipts and suggests that Papus was being overcharged on the wheat. Anyway I think it’s clear from this that, at least, an Egyptian farmer under (very recently instituted) Roman rule would have had some amount of hard cash, but that if possible he would have preferred to hang onto it and pay in kind. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3821645 This may not be representative of everywhere in the empire though. Egypt had had widespread coinage for a very long time by this point (notice that the money is Hellenistic, not denarii), and it’s easy to believe that the Papus-equivalents of Armorica or Illyria or whatever wouldn’t. skasion fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 18:36
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Fish of hemp posted:Actually, how many people would even see money in mostly agricultural society? Too broad a question for an answer. There were societies that were more monetized than others. And even within them, there were times Roman society was just about fully monetized and everyone was using it and times when it wasn't. And it was different in different regions! If you're a Roman farmer in southern Gaul in 100 AD, you're using money all the time. If you're that farmer in the same place in 450, probably not. There were times in Chinese history were not only was everyone required to pay taxes in cash, but specifically silver coins. This as you might imagine was exploitable and led to quite a lot of revolt.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:38
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my uneducated assumption has always been that even if farmers mostly used barter amongst themselves and nearby towns, they would still have some cash on hand for when they bought things from cities. Since from what i know people rarely actually stayed in their home village their entire lives and did make trips to other towns and cities to visit family, go on pilgrimages, and visit the large markets where they can get things not availably locally in NW Gaul or wherever. "Hey kevin in can you pay me in silver this month instead of with grain? I'm doing my yearly visit to the in-laws in Trier and need a new sword and some of those fancy spices we use for the holiday feasts" WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 18:41
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Fish of hemp posted:Actually, how many people would even see money in mostly agricultural society? As mentioned this is quite broad and I'd say that if they lived in a society that had money, they probably interacted with money, but agriculture is about twice as old as money, so there's a pretty long period when we have agricultural societies but nobody anywhere had any money. And this may be a little pedantic but its made somewhat more complicated by the fact that money is kind of an abstract concept rather than a physical good. I mostly get paid in numbers that show up in a bank account, and I pay for things by using a complex system of credit transfers. I don't think people would say that this is "not money." So, for a Sumerian peasant who goes to the alewife or bronzesmith and buys a bunch of beer/tools and the alewife or smith writes down how much they owe on a ledger denominated in shekels that the peasant pays back at the harvest with an equivalent quantity of barley, that's interacting with money, even if no coins pass hands. After all, the history of money is also about twice as long as the history of coinage.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:00
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https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1724114505305665635 Of course I am hyped for a biopic on one of the most interesting historical figures of antiquity played by one of our finest living actors but the blue check world is concerned that Hannibal Barca "wasn't black". I don't even know what modern racial phenotype Carthaginians are supposed to slot into, Berber? Levantine? My only concern is that the only two historical films Fuqua has directed are very small in scope compared to Hannibal's alpine campaign . zoux fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 20:48
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Thanks for letting us know Twitter is mad
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Nov 13, 2023 20:51
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Pompeii farms were preserved. Their excavation has not afaict made the popular books. Maybe if someone could look up the academic articles there is some talk about the money found around the farms Campania was an old and prosperous region of Italia at the time of Vesuvius tho
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Nov 13, 2023 20:58
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I look forward to the "making of" feature, wherein the filmmakers fail to get elephants across the alps
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Nov 13, 2023 20:58
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Hannibal was likely not what a modern person would consider black, Phoenicians were from modern Lebanon-ish. But a) we don't have his full lineage so can't be sure if/how mixed he was and b) who cares.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:58
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Denzel is already older than Hannibal ever was. That’s my only hesitation
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Nov 13, 2023 21:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I look forward to the "making of" feature, wherein the filmmakers fail to get elephants across the alps This will prove that ancient aliens moved the elephants.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:01
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Also Hannibal never attacked Rome !! What is the standards for tweets these days
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Nov 13, 2023 21:01
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euphronius posted:Denzel is already older than Hannibal ever was. That’s my only hesitation He was really starting to show his age in Equalizer 3 too. On the other hand people always assume ancient people were older than they actually were.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:03
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It’s funny people get mad about Denzel but no one was mad that Mel Gibson played William Wallace. Curious
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Nov 13, 2023 21:05
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1724114505305665635 the bigger problem is Hannibal was 26 at the start of the 2nd punic war and his youth is literally a part of how he was underestimated. Denzel is 70.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:41
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It could work as flash backs with old one eye Hannibal telling court stories
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Nov 13, 2023 21:42
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euphronius posted:Also Hannibal never attacked Rome !! What is the standards for tweets these days He attacked the state of Rome, even if he never reached the city. Overruled.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:46
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All Roads lead to Rome ergo all road trips are Rome trips and all road movies are Rome movies.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:11
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WoodrowSkillson posted:the bigger problem is Hannibal was 26 at the start of the 2nd punic war and his youth is literally a part of how he was underestimated. Hollywood wants everyone fighting wars to be twice their age though, so it kinda works out.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:12
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Hmm let’s see who we can cast for Hannibal. A-lister, ok. Vaguely Levantine appearance, ok. Needs to look like they’d invade your country…Is Gal Gadot free?
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Nov 13, 2023 22:28
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cheetah7071 posted:He attacked the state of Rome, even if he never reached the city. Overruled. Fair enough
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Nov 13, 2023 22:32
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skasion posted:Hmm let’s see who we can cast for Hannibal. A-lister, ok. Vaguely Levantine appearance, ok. Needs to look like they’d invade your country…Is Gal Gadot free? Featuring the mustachioed Guy Godot
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Nov 13, 2023 23:45
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skasion posted:Hmm let’s see who we can cast for Hannibal. A-lister, ok. Vaguely Levantine appearance, ok. Needs to look like they’d invade your country…Is Gal Gadot free? lmao SlothfulCobra posted:Hollywood wants everyone fighting wars to be twice their age though, so it kinda works out. There's a couple things going on here but almost certainly the dominating element of this is that we basically just don't make actual movie stars anymore (understood by film nerds as 'a person so important that they get billing above the title of the film and can draw an audience regardless of the rest of marketing'). It feels like the sort of thing that should be renewable but its pretty much going extinct and the few that remain are getting older and older. Tom Cruise is on the young side.
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Nov 14, 2023 00:19
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Very not ancient history but Tom Hanks was something like twice the age of the average Army captain in Saving Private Ryan. It's about convincing audiences that this a guy they too would want to follow into battle, or in this case over the Alps, and very, very few 26-yo actors can pull that off.
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Nov 14, 2023 00:52
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zoux posted:Very not ancient history but Tom Hanks was something like twice the age of the average Army captain in Saving Private Ryan. It's about convincing audiences that this a guy they too would want to follow into battle, or in this case over the Alps, and very, very few 26-yo actors can pull that off. sure, so pick a man in his 30s or early 40s like the tom hanks example. not a man over retirement age
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Nov 14, 2023 01:08
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Well, this movie is probably only getting made because famous director Antione Fuqua wants to make it, and he made Training Day and all the Equalizer movies.
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Nov 14, 2023 01:18
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WoodrowSkillson posted:"Hey Coemgenus in can you pay me in silver this month instead of with grain? I'm doing my yearly visit to the in-laws in Trier and need a new sword and some of those fancy spices we use for the holiday feasts" Wondering where the name Kevin came from and they gave the Latin version of the Irish name...
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Nov 14, 2023 01:28
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WoodrowSkillson posted:the bigger problem is Hannibal was 26 at the start of the 2nd punic war and his youth is literally a part of how he was underestimated. Yeah this is the thing that bothers me. Would love it if people in biopics were at least approximately the right age. And since most war films are trying to play up the tragedy of it, casting a bunch of 18-20 year olds will only dial that up. zoux posted:It's about convincing audiences that this a guy they too would want to follow into battle, or in this case over the Alps, and very, very few 26-yo actors can pull that off. I don't know jack about acting, but there's gotta be some up and coming talent that could do it. Just have to find a director proud enough to take it as a challenge. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 03:06
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FreudianSlippers posted:All Roads lead to Rome ergo all road trips are Rome trips and all road movies are Rome movies. Getting hype for Mad Maximus: Fury Rome
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Nov 14, 2023 04:56
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Dopilsya posted:Getting hype for Mad Maximus: Fury Rome Thread title
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Nov 14, 2023 06:32
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Didn’t Hannibal live a long time after the wars? Maybe he’s playing old man Hannibal to tell the story around the old campfire?
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Nov 14, 2023 08:35
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Grand Fromage posted:Hannibal was likely not what a modern person would consider black, Phoenicians were from modern Lebanon-ish. But a) we don't have his full lineage so can't be sure if/how mixed he was and b) who cares. SlothfulCobra posted:Hollywood wants everyone fighting wars to be twice their age though, so it kinda works out. 
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Nov 14, 2023 13:32
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There aren't any movie stars under the age of fifty, that's why.
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Nov 14, 2023 13:42
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Gosling
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Nov 14, 2023 13:47
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Tulip posted:lmao ok boomer
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Nov 14, 2023 13:51
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Dopilsya posted:Mad Maximus: Fury Rome
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Nov 14, 2023 13:51
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Star Man posted:There aren't any movie stars under the age of fifty, that's why. Sure there are. They just all do the Marvel movies made for babies (I would too, for that kinda paycheck) and its hard to imagine them in a more serious/period piece type of role.
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Nov 14, 2023 14:37
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