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wash bucket posted:I don't have any advice; just commiseration. Job hunting feels really, really unnerving because you're flying blind. You put in tons of effort searching, applying, writing cover letters/resumes, online profiles, phone calls, multiple rounds of interviews, and almost every time it just dead-ends and there you are with no idea what you should have done different. Then you get up the next day and just keep doing it because what the hell else can you do? Thank you friend, I appreciate that. I feel so flat after today's rejection and finding out I am second in line is no consolation - it isn't like it brings me any closer to the next role. I can't say in the next application by the way I came second for the role at [x company] - because who gives a flying gently caress? As you say, I just gotta get my poo poo together and start throwing together more applications - even though I just wanna curl up in a ball and cry Another bugbear of mine is that so many recruitment companies keep jobs up after they have been filled (maybe as bait?) - probably a half dozen times now I have applied for a role only to be told that it was no longer available. My guys, just do the minimum and take it down when it has been filled! I have no job, so finding a job is of the essence, but hot drat if it isn't demoralising lol
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Nov 14, 2023 01:30
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Chewbecca posted:Another bugbear of mine is that so many recruitment companies keep jobs up after they have been filled (maybe as bait?) - probably a half dozen times now I have applied for a role only to be told that it was no longer available. My guys, just do the minimum and take it down when it has been filled! Well, I know some companies do that so when their over-worked employees complain the bosses can point to that job listing and say, "We have several promising candidates identified!" and then keep right on running their departments
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Nov 14, 2023 01:38
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Chewbecca posted:Thank you friend, I appreciate that. I feel so flat after today's rejection and finding out I am second in line is no consolation - it isn't like it brings me any closer to the next role.
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Nov 14, 2023 01:41
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wash bucket posted:Well, I know some companies do that so when their over-worked employees complain the bosses can point to that job listing and say, "We have several promising candidates identified!" and then keep right on running their departments This is recruitment agencies (so not directly with the company, on behalf of the company) so I suspect they are maybe farming for CVs? Or maybe just can't be hosed taking them down, who knows. I am now in the habit of emailing or calling before applying via recruitment agencies just so I don't waste time applying for a role which was filled a week ago Arquinsiel posted:It did though. You know that you did well in that last interview. You probably also have an idea of what question stumped you in the interview or what area of skills they were looking for that you didn't have. Now you can refine your interview technique and start brushing up on the skill gaps you identified. Plus you got that first awkward interview out of the way, so you're back in the swing of things. All you gotta do now is keep firing out applications and you'll get there. That is very glass half full 
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Nov 14, 2023 01:55
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Recruiters are trash. I'm sure individually as human beings they're fine, but they operate in a garbage system that forces them to become garbage. I've been ghosted by recruiters after we've had half hour phone calls, or phone calls + half hour video calls. I had one recruiter message me on LinkedIn that they were interested in my experience at "_" and wanted to talk more. As in, the message had a literal underscore where they forgot to copy and paste my employer from my profile. I had a recruiter reach out to me about a job I'd applied for 3 hours earlier and been rejected from 2 hours earlier, thinking I might be a good fit based on my profile. Just today I had an internal recruiter call me at 6:45 PM (what are time zones???) about a position I'd applied for, then sent me an email asking a bunch of questions that were answered in the job application (like my address, and if I'm eligible to work in the US).
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Nov 14, 2023 02:44
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Chewbecca posted:That is very glass half full
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Nov 14, 2023 02:48
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FISHMANPET posted:Recruiters are trash. I'm sure individually as human beings they're fine, but they operate in a garbage system that forces them to become garbage. I've been ghosted by recruiters after we've had half hour phone calls, or phone calls + half hour video calls. I had one recruiter message me on LinkedIn that they were interested in my experience at "_" and wanted to talk more. As in, the message had a literal underscore where they forgot to copy and paste my employer from my profile. I had a recruiter reach out to me about a job I'd applied for 3 hours earlier and been rejected from 2 hours earlier, thinking I might be a good fit based on my profile. Just today I had an internal recruiter call me at 6:45 PM (what are time zones???) about a position I'd applied for, then sent me an email asking a bunch of questions that were answered in the job application (like my address, and if I'm eligible to work in the US). I've had so many similar experiences as this  Just on Monday a recruiter rang and asked me questions that I had literally addressed in my email to her. I ended up bringing up the email and reading out it's content as it contained all the information requested.I get it, they're people doing their best but seriously, just an email response would be great. Talk to me, let me know it's a no go - I promise I won't take it out on you!! Arquinsiel posted:We're here to get you hired. Post a redacted version of your resume and someone in this thread will be in your field and be able to tell you what you could improve. Let us help out. Oh really? As in, post a Google doc version with my personal and identifying info removed? I think this sounds great if I can get some help with it!! : unsmith:
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Nov 14, 2023 02:56
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Chewbecca posted:Oh really? As in, post a Google doc version with my personal and identifying info removed? I think this sounds great if I can get some help with it!! : unsmith:
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Nov 14, 2023 03:13
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Also keep in mind, losing out after an interview doesn't mean you didn't meet muster, there is only 1 position and maybe someone over qualified, or related to someone, or has a complete unicorn profile came along. An interview isn't a referendum on you, it's a competition in which you don't know the rules nor the competition.
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Nov 14, 2023 04:06
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Lockback posted:An interview isn't a referendum on you, it's a competition in which you don't know the rules nor the competition. Well said
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Nov 14, 2023 04:33
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Lockback posted:Also keep in mind, losing out after an interview doesn't mean you didn't meet muster, there is only 1 position and maybe someone over qualified, or related to someone, or has a complete unicorn profile came along. An interview isn't a referendum on you, it's a competition in which you don't know the rules nor the competition. In Australia (where I am) there are definitely policies for publicly funded institutions like government departments and universities being compelled to advertise roles, even if those roles already have someone acting in the position - which is frankly ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time and energy. And of course as you say, there can be all kinds of wheeling and dealing behind the scenes. I hate LinkedIn telling me how many applicants, even though I know a fair amount of them are probably garbage spam accounts it is still deeply demotivating  Can I ask the wise thread, for those of you searching, how many jobs do you apply for a week and how do you maintain motivation?
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Nov 14, 2023 05:32
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Chewbecca posted:Can I ask the wise thread, for those of you searching, how many jobs do you apply for a week and how do you maintain motivation? In my most recent search, I applied for 4 to 20 jobs weekly, sometimes as many as 40. However, those were primarily driven by what was out there, and those numbers might be a little high because I'm a software developer and was open to various types of working situations (contract, etc). More than the strict numbers was the process. Essentially, each week day except Monday that I wasn't otherwise engaged (with an errand or something) I'd sit down and search for jobs on LinkedIn that had been posted in the last 24 hours. I'd hit every job that was an adequate match and wasn't a shithole (blockchain companies, Meta, etc). Skillwise, I tried to be pretty selective, usually only hitting 2-3 out of every 20 or so. On LinkedIn specifically, it's hard to sift through the dozens and dozens of lovely promoted posts clogging up the works, but you can use your browser's feature to look for "hour" or some keyword that shows the real posts. After that, I'd sometimes poke another job site in a similar way, but I think some of them don't let you do 24 hours. These sites were mostly Indeed and ZipRecruiter, which are less good than LinkedIn but better than much else out there. I also logged every application sent in a document and tracked every resume in case they got a varied version. How did I stay motivated? I forgot about every application immediately after sending it until I hear back. Rejections are discouraging but my headcanon was "They are making a mistake."
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Nov 14, 2023 09:03
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Above is good advice. I'd also say that every week you should target a handful of jobs that are either exactly what you want or very gettable and spend a bit of time customizing your resume/cover for that job. But only do that for a few a week. That can give you a little edge on the more likely jobs and also keep you a bit more engaged in the process without burning yourself out trying to do that dozens of times. To some degree it's a numbers game but also I think the people that just churn applications start getting disconnected from their resume and that can come out in screenings. Customizing your resume can keep you in it and can also lead to small improvements over time to your "baseline resume". Think of job searching like a job but that also means don't burnout. Set a schedule to look and stick to it, take breaks, etc. If your finding yourself not being good at it, skip a day and double down the next. Be smart and realize it's a marathon more than a sprint.
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Nov 14, 2023 13:57
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Chewbecca posted:Can I ask the wise thread, for those of you searching, how many jobs do you apply for a week and how do you maintain motivation? I aim for 5-10 per day and generally customize my resume for every single one. ChatGPT is helpful in this respect: I prompt it to act like a resume reviewer / recruiter and then ask it to assess and quantify alignment between my resume and the JD, and if I come in under 90 I'll ask it to identify easy areas for improvement. I've entirely stopped sending out cover letters - unless they're requested / required; it has saved me a lot of time and as far as I can tell has not carried any drawbacks. My pace has taken a hit over the last month because, after six months of mostly nothing, having taking some of the advice from this thread in late September and finally letting go of my less central career interests and focusing on a single thing, I've interviewed with 7 different organizations for a total of probably 15-20 actual conversations, with one that ended after the recruiter screening, two that have passed recruiters and are awaiting scheduling with the hiring manager, and four that progressed to the final round - with three strikeouts and one still up in the air and about which I'm expecting to hear back this week. This all has significantly decreased the time and, particularly, energy available to sink into the drudgery of applications and resume tweaking. Not a bad problem to have, but it has impacted my motivation and ability to focus. For example, this is the first week in the last 5 that I haven't come into with interviews already scheduled. Am I using the breathing room productively? No. I'm procrastinating like mad and posting in this thread.
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Nov 14, 2023 18:51
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I'm probably applying to between 5 and 10 jobs a week, but I'm in an industry which asks you to address between 5 to 10 selection criteria per application so I spend a lot of time having to address those, tweak my cv, write cover letters etc. I am open to most roles (contract, permanent, part-time) simply because I get burnt out so I'm happy to work on a project and then scram. it's never occurred to me to use chatgpt to see if my cv is aligned with the job description, do you just copy/paste both into the text field? I use google bard occasionally to help me tweak a sentence but I don't find it that useful in all honesty, the sentences come across as robotic in a way. I don't mind so much the applying, it's more spending a half day or more on an application that barely gets looked before getting auto-rejected that really gets me down. LinkedIn applications generate notifications. Once i got an email notification stating "the employer has downloaded your application" followed up by another email notification not even 5 minutes later "thanks for your application, but due to the quality of candidates we won't be proceeding with your application (etc)". That was disheartening to say the least!! Everytime that happens I feel just a bit flatter and smaller. I feel embarrassed too, this is the first time in my career that I've been out of work this long. I've been looking in earnest since September and the bites have been few and far between 
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Nov 14, 2023 19:41
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Chewbecca posted:it's never occurred to me to use chatgpt to see if my cv is aligned with the job description, do you just copy/paste both into the text field? I use google bard occasionally to help me tweak a sentence but I don't find it that useful in all honesty, the sentences come across as robotic in a way. Pretty much, yes. The prompt will go something like: quote:Act as [name], the world's premier resume writer / recruiter / job search consultant / etc. You understand best practices and emerging trends in resume writing and recruitment. You are extra critical to push your clients to be their best. Customize as necessary. I find that Bard sucks. I use it primarily when researching companies I'm interviewing at, because it's much faster at scouring the internet than ChatGPT. But that's about the extent. Bard has trouble even holding a mock interview, defaulting to performing a Q&A with itself if you don't get very specific in your instructions. ChatGPT is not a terrible writer (Bard is), and will occasionally come up with surprising sentence construction and even humor. However, its real value IMO is leveraging its native ability to process massive amounts of text to either generate ideas or, well, process massive amounts of text! quote:LinkedIn applications generate notifications. Once i got an email notification stating "the employer has downloaded your application" followed up by another email notification not even 5 minutes later "thanks for your application, but due to the quality of candidates we won't be proceeding with your application (etc)". That was disheartening to say the least!! Everytime that happens I feel just a bit flatter and smaller. quote:I feel embarrassed too, this is the first time in my career that I've been out of work this long. I've been looking in earnest since September and the bites have been few and far between Habibi fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 20:07
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Update: After 8 months of solid job hunting I had to turn down my first real written offer. The money was fair for the position but the benefits were terrible. Like 401K match didn't fully vest until year 5 and company match was 2%. I would have had to relocate and while it was close to where my wife and I would like to move to the area was much more rural than either of us would prefer and still almost a two hour drive from where we would want to be. If the role was based in their location where I currently live it would have been a slam dunk. We ran the numbers and there was no path for the role to have lead to the life we wanted. I was stocked to get the offer and be done with the job hunt but better to hold out for a role more aligned with our big picture. Question: I'm wondering if there is a better way to list my bachelors degree. I have a BA but am looking to move into a more STEM role. I see a lot of requirements for "Bachelor’s Degree in Industrial Engineering, Manufacturing, Operations, or related field" I feel like a ATS might kick me out for having a BA instead of a BS, is it better to just list me degree as a bachelors?
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Nov 14, 2023 21:34
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There is absolutely no consistency across programs as to what qualifies as a BA or a BS. Some schools only award one degree, others have different requirements per major, and maybe a few schools have a standard policy (but I certainly can't think of one). Don't worry about that.
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Nov 14, 2023 21:37
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Habibi posted:Pretty much, yes. The prompt will go something like: I'll def have a look at chatgpt, although I'm a touch concerned at feeding it my entire (adult) life story wholesale. Maybe I should anonymise my cv first Sound_man posted:Update: No advice on the degree stuff, but congrats on getting on offer. There are a few offers I wish in hindsight I'd turned down so it's great you're doing what's best for you!
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Nov 14, 2023 21:44
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At my school it was based on whether you took a year of a lab science (physics, chem, etc) or an art/language. Just have a line ready if you’re worried about it.
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Nov 14, 2023 21:50
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i know this question comes up constantly, but what's a rule of thumb on following up with your main contact after an interview? For context, I had my [probably] last round on Friday with the person who has final hiring decision (because I'd be their business partner), but wouldn't be my direct report nor is the internal TA person with whom I've been primarily communicating. I sent a post-interview thank you note to my interviewer later that day, but should I also reach out to the TA person? I'm unusually antsy: of the 4 final round interviews I've had in the last month, this is the one that - while not the best paying or titled - aligns most with what I want to do, how I want to do it, and my schedule / life / constraints. Should I just wait to hear from them, to a reasonable extent, or is it a good idea to ping them? There is a temptation to remind them of my presence, as it were, but I'm pretty sure it'll just come off as needy.Chewbecca posted:I'll def have a look at chatgpt, although I'm a touch concerned at feeding it my entire (adult) life story wholesale. Maybe I should anonymise my cv first I mean, I paste in everything below my name and contact info. But otherwise, nothing there that my LinkedIn doesn't speak to, anyway, so I kinda doubt OpenAI is waiting for me provide them with something publicly available. Insisting on anonymizing it feels a big pain in the rear end to do for every time you want to check alignment or see how much customization you need for a given role. e: while editing this I received an invitation for a first round for a role / org that caught my eye two weeks ago and which I had - as already advised by another poster earlier on this page - immediately forgotten about as soon as I sent my application. So, yay. Habibi fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 21:53
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Chewbecca posted:I feel embarrassed too, this is the first time in my career that I've been out of work this long. I've been looking in earnest since September and the bites have been few and far between I was job hunting from February to September this year and didn’t get any real traction till August. It do be like that.
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Nov 14, 2023 21:57
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Habibi posted:e: while editing this I received an invitation for a first round for a role / org that caught my eye two weeks ago and which I had - as already advised by another poster earlier on this page - immediately forgotten about as soon as I sent my application. So, yay. Congrats!!! Fingers and toes it works out, goon wash bucket posted:I was job hunting from February to September this year and didn’t get any real traction till August. It do be like that. I'm the idiot who didn't see the job market going in the direction it did, pure arrogance on my part I bailed on a toxic job situation by resigning and here we are! I must say, the existence of this thread is making me feel a bit better. I'd fallen into the habit of believing the LinkedIn hype where it seems everyone is either being promoted, or hiring single mothers who work remotely in order to make a LinkedIn update about it. Posting and empathizing with real people who get it is cool
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Nov 14, 2023 22:07
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I recommend staying away from the LI feed. Click Jobs as soon as the page loads. The people who post there have something wrong with them. I compare LinkedIn to the Bill Mumy little kid in the Twilight Zone. We normals all pretend we like LinkedIn and that the content on the site is just great because we don't want to get sent to the cornfield.
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Nov 14, 2023 23:03
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I post on LinkedIn just because I've heard it helps you algorithmically, and I keep it quite dry and typically about workplace / industry news or tech. I'm pretty sure not one single motherfucker reads them. What some people post on LinkedIn is insane and not just the corporate cringe people. Some people think it's loving Facebook and not "the social media of record for employers." I've had to remove multiple old contacts for sharing white supremacist propaganda.
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Nov 14, 2023 23:09
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bort posted:I recommend staying away from the LI feed. Click Jobs as soon as the page loads. The people who post there have something wrong with them. I compare LinkedIn to the Bill Mumy little kid in the Twilight Zone. We normals all pretend we like LinkedIn and that the content on the site is just great because we don't want to get sent to the cornfield. lol Okay I'll only look at the jobs on LinkedIn and avoid the rest of it. I think the more recent discourse about how some recruiters don't like people with the 'open to work' banner as it makes them 'look desperate' broke something in my brain. It's like a weird dating thing where you can't win - appear interested, not desperate. Be open but not too open. The only people who message me on LinkedIn have ended up ghosting me anyway, and I doubt the banner has anything to do with it
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Nov 14, 2023 23:11
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It's all dating. You won't get real feedback. You won't know why someone likes you or doesn't. The default result is a failure to connect. You have to deal with being rejected or ghosted and put on that nice outfit again and smile.
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Nov 14, 2023 23:14
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I posted on LI when I got my latest cert and another one asking if anyone had leads for jobs but neither seemed to have changed anything except the number of "impressions" my posts had. Not my views did go up a few though. Add me to the list of people who've been looking since Spring. Over 1k apps sent out, 7 or 8 interviews and no offers. I'm not even getting hits for basic entry level IT jobs. poo poo is rough atm
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Nov 14, 2023 23:29
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That's what shocked me the most in this round of job searching. I've held middle management and senior roles, yet despite my experience I'm now not even getting hits for roles I am the most experienced in I've started to track my applications in a spreadsheet, just because the jobs were starting to blur into each other. I note down their status (applied, application in process, rejected), the date they close, contract length etc. It reminds me that I'm working hard on these applications and tickles the part of my brain that likes outcomes.
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Nov 14, 2023 23:45
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Chewbecca posted:I feel embarrassed too, this is the first time in my career that I've been out of work this long. I've been looking in earnest since September and the bites have been few and far between n'thing the sentiment others have had, you're not alone. I got laid off in February and, for me at least, it is sort of feast or famine with when I get attention/see new relevant job postings. I'll get a few interviews all at once, and then nothing for weeks; I had four interviews in September, one in October, and I've already had four in November. Earlier this year I was lucky to get two in the same month. We clearly have different linkedin connections though because mine is just a feed of people saying they got laid off which is discouraging in a totally different way!
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Nov 14, 2023 23:51
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Kind of a long shot, but has anyone every gone through the interview process for a job at US Bank? Every other application where they've made contact has gone the same - recruiter emails to schedule a half hour screening call. I had a very strange call last night from US Bank about a job I applied to. First of all, he calls me at 6:45 PM, though I'm in the Midwest and he's in California so it's only 4:45 PM for him. His accent was so thick that I honestly had a hard time understanding most of what he was saying, which was kind of surprising for someone whose LinkedIn says they've been doing technical recruiting in the US for 20 years. He did the "outside recruiter" thing where he asks me aggressive and nonsensical questions that are just the job requirements listed in question form, which I've seen a few times when talking to outside recruiters (usually for contract gigs) where the recruiter doesn't really have any understanding of what the job is. He sent me an email while we were on the phone that was basically just a copy of the application, with "questions" like what's your address and phone number (on the application), are you authorized to work (answered on the application), can you send me your resume (submitted with the application), etc etc. As best I can tell he expected me to immediately respond to his 17 question e-mail immediately, and called me again 20 minutes later, which I missed because I was making dinner. I can only assume he was wondering why I hadn't responded to his email. It really felt like an outside recruiter just trying to stuff a body into a contract position and get their commission and move on, except his email came from US Bank and (as best I can tell) their job portal system. It doesn't feel like behavior of the recruiter whose job it is to fill the position. I'm left to wonder if maybe it's a freelance recruiter who hopes he can sidestep the regular process and get me into the role to get his commission. Is this "normal" for them? tl;dr: US Bank recruiter gives off bad vibes
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Nov 15, 2023 00:09
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I'm not American so maybe I don't know poo poo from clay, but goon that sounds so dicey to me  Especially the being extra pushy part, why on earth would he be pursuing you so vigorously unless he was trying to extract something from you? Surely a real recruiter has plenty of other people they can follow up with, and within business hours as well
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Nov 15, 2023 00:27
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There are quite a few headhunters that make their $ selling their "contacts". "We'll help you land a job at one of my million contacts in the industry.... for the low, low price of $10,000!... Payable in installments!"
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Nov 15, 2023 15:11
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:There are quite a few headhunters that make their $ selling their "contacts". Getting really sick of recruiters not giving a full job description before getting 6 "references" from me
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Nov 15, 2023 15:37
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Salami Surgeon posted:Getting really sick of recruiters not giving a full job description before getting 6 "references" from me
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Nov 15, 2023 16:15
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In my various chats with recruiters and the like, the question has come up a few times about what I'm looking for in the "culture" of where I'm working, and I have no idea what they're asking about. I've spent the entirety of my 14 year professional career working for a single large public research University, so sometimes I feel out of the loop on the types of questions I'm getting asked, like this one. The answers I've given have been about hybrid culture, saying that I'd prefer hybrid with intention vs "boss says you must come into the office 3 days a week and have zoom meetings at your desk." Can anyone shine some more light on what types of things the recruiter is asking with this question? Maybe another part of my difficulty is that I'm pretty flexible and can adapt to most situations. Or maybe not, and I mostly just have experience with a single "culture" and don't have enough experience to know what I would and wouldn't like about a particular "culture."
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Nov 15, 2023 17:57
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The recruiter is trying to sell rear end-in-seat jobs and trying to lead you toward accepting one.
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Nov 15, 2023 18:04
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Put very reductively, culture in this context refers to the manner in which employees are expected to conduct themselves. Not in terms of following rules or policies, but in terms of how the organization's people operate and interact (as well as the kind of people hired in the first place). Different cultures entail different approaches to getting the work done, so in answering this question think about the environment in which you want to work. It is a very...broad and not useful question to ask, IMO.
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Nov 15, 2023 18:09
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You're not going to be able to say what sort of culture you prefer until you've worked in a few, but you can speak about what you like and dislike about your current employer. Think of an answer in those terms and you'll be ahead of 90% of candidates.Habibi posted:It is a very...broad and not useful question to ask, IMO. It makes sense for a fairly senior role but below that level it is a little funky.
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Nov 15, 2023 18:17
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I got asked it a lot in my last jobhunt and I was able to answer with "flat org structure, no dress code, no mandatory fun, fully remote".
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Nov 15, 2023 18:51
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