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euph's take of "turning the ball over gives the opposing team points" is pretty bland, not sure why it gets so much resistance
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Nov 14, 2023 22:30
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the offense's secondary job (after scoring points) is not to turn the ball over, whether that be by pick/fumble, downs, or a 3 and out that gives the other team a short field. pretty basic stuff
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Nov 14, 2023 22:32
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indigi posted:the offense's secondary job (after scoring points) is not to turn the ball over, whether that be by pick/fumble, downs, or a 3 and out that gives the other team a short field. pretty basic stuff The offense's secondary job (after scoring points) is to score more points, which doesn't happen when you turn the ball over by pick/fumble, downs or a 3 and out that gives the other team a short field. The reason that its an important philosophical distinction is because the fallacies of "rested defense" and "complimentary football" and others cause coaches to make decisions that sacrifice the scoring of points in service of those secondary endeavors - things like trying to 'establish the run' and 'rest your defense,' running the ball in unfavorable looks to try and stretch out time of possession, punting the ball instead of going for it on 4th down in favorable circumstances, and a bunch of other things - which ultimately contribute less to winning the game than just scoring more points would have.
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Nov 14, 2023 22:47
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I think back in the day tiring out defenses made sense since people were quasi-athletes that meatheaded first before cardio. Now you not only have a rotation but most guys on the sideline have enough conditioning to run two games in a row. Time of possession matters if the other team has a slow, methodical offense. Other than that it's a meh thing people pay attention to. The Giants are one of the top time of possession teams because they're scored on easily and they have to run the ball a lot.
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Nov 14, 2023 22:51
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Doltos posted:I think back in the day tiring out defenses made sense since people were quasi-athletes that meatheaded first before cardio. Now you not only have a rotation but most guys on the sideline have enough conditioning to run two games in a row. Recent tracking data from those shoulder pad trackers shows that offenses are just as "tired" as defenses after a short possession.
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Nov 14, 2023 22:56
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blarzgh posted:The offense doesn't play defense, Time of Possession is a consequence of successful offense, not an objective.
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Nov 14, 2023 23:30
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The offense’s job in Real Football is to come out in 21 personnel, and run the ball down their throat time and time again, use that to set up the occasional pass, and eat up time on the clock. Just wear the defense’s asses out. This is why the NFL product on the field has been bad for about twenty years now. Run the goldanged ball like they did in the 70s! Stop with this sissy ball. Coming out with an empty backfield and five receivers on first down  *spits*
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Nov 14, 2023 23:51
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blarzgh posted:The offense doesn't play defense, Time of Possession is a consequence of successful offense, not an objective. it is a myth that defense can get exhausted
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Nov 15, 2023 00:03
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scoring is more the defense's job than it is on the offense. first of all they can score on their own. but secondly they can give the offense way, way more and better opportunities to score
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Nov 15, 2023 00:19
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This is a powerful thread.
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Nov 15, 2023 00:20
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I love this thread.
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Nov 15, 2023 00:21
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Cavauro posted:scoring is more the defense's job than it is on the offense. first of all they can score on their own. but secondly they can give the offense way, way more and better opportunities to score Yeah. Each part of a team works together optimally
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Nov 15, 2023 00:21
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Sometimes you score 6 points, other times 3, or 1, and sometimes even 2. Sometimes you don't score points at all!
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Nov 15, 2023 00:34
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Cartoon Man posted:QBR isn’t even like a real stat, it’s just make believe numbers for nerds. Nah. Actually, that's the old system that was invented in like the 70's or something where people just threw numbers into a blender and it spit a "good performance", which not even the people who publish it can really tell you how it's calculated. QBR is better, especially since it goes from an easily understood 1 to 100 scale and factors in a lot of other poo poo. Any attempt to measure individual performance in the ultimate team game that has 22 moving parts on every play and where anyone who has success almost always relies on their teammates for those yards and their scores is inherently difficult to quantify and isolate. NFL nerds have been trying for years to measure all of this like baseball and create something like WAR (wins above replacement}, with varying degrees of success, but it's apples to oranges and always will be, even though football stats analysis has evolved a lot. There's no way in loving hell to determine what Tom Brady or Joe Montana might have done had they spent their careers with the Seahawks or the Chargers or what Barry Sanders might have rushed for behind the 90's Cowboys or Washington O-line. We have no idea what Roger Staubach's, Terry Bradshaw or Ken Stabler's numbers might have looked like in 2023. Hell, Tom Brady might have never even had a loving CAREER had Drew Bledsoe not gotten injured and there had been a different coach in New England. He may have wound up drafted in the 7th round by the Bears of the Jets, where he never had a chance and was a career backup. Or Bledsoe gets the Pats to the Super Bowl and Brady never even sniffs the field. What do Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders' careers look like if you switch their teams? Truth is, we have no loving idea.
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Nov 15, 2023 00:52
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MrMojok posted:I had to look that up. He started twelve games that season (they were 9-3 during those games) and threw 18 TDs to only 3 INTs, which is pretty decent. 7.7 yards per attempt. I'm a casual Jags fan and Garrard was good that year but not a difference maker really. They ran a lot of Maurice Jones Drew and played good defense with an offense that basically asked Garrard not to gently caress up and to make plays with his legs. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 00:54
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Brady’s aura defeated Bledso It was inevitable
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Nov 15, 2023 01:03
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CapnAndy posted:That's pretty blatantly untrue. Source: any game where an offense has a lead and is holding the ball in the mid-to-late 4th quarter and their playcalling objective perceptably shifts from "score points" to "make drive take a long time". what makes football the best sport is that there are a billion different types of strategy and decisions to make. sometimes it’s best for the offense to do everything they can to score, other times they need to be good but *not* score cause the other team will have too much time to score themselves. certainly every offense wishes they could get a TD every drive but that isn’t a real goal, so there are a plethora of times when it’s the smart decision to just try and extend the drive. to “tire out the defense” if you will
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Nov 15, 2023 01:25
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Doltos posted:I think back in the day tiring out defenses made sense since people were quasi-athletes that meatheaded first before cardio. Now you not only have a rotation but most guys on the sideline have enough conditioning to run two games in a row. I don't mean in a "tire out the defense" way, I agree that's probably not a thing I could see certain teams tiring out a defense because of how physical and aggressive they are, how much they make defenders work - the 9ers come to mind - but I don't think it's a function of TOP. probably more tiring to run a high number of plays regardless of how much clock they use. but even that's probably minimal
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Nov 15, 2023 01:26
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just to be crystal clear, a 3 and out is bad not because it doesn't take a lot of time off the clock (although situationally that could make it even worse, of course), but because the opponent will start their next drive closer to your end zone
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Nov 15, 2023 01:32
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https://twitter.com/ESPNBooger/status/1724537122562941029?t=UQz7A_V5owPhNYvsxxYICQ&s=19 It's, "to the curb", Mr.Booger, sir
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Nov 15, 2023 04:31
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Much of the conversation I'm seeing around Dak today is "hey is he the best QB in the league now?" while much of the conversation around Allen after last night is "sure seems like those mistakes are a feature, not a bug, and never going anywhere" but it's not a day in the NFC East thread without this sort of thing, so
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Nov 15, 2023 05:33
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He's playing really well, but I want to see him do it on our schedule for the Eagles rematch, or vs the Lions
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Nov 15, 2023 05:44
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Yeah a lights out performance against the devito Giants is far from impressive The Cowboys are just pub stompers and can’t handle a real match
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Nov 15, 2023 05:46
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Iirc he played pretty goodly against the eagles but also the eagles have opted out of pass defense this year.
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Nov 15, 2023 07:05
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yeah, he was fantastic in the eagles game outside of the two-point conversion — and even then he was, like, three inches away from making it and had to put the whole thing on his back to get it to that point. he's played lights-out in the four games since the SF debacle: 1,354 yards, 12 TDs, 2 INTs, completing 73% of his passes. the flip side of that, though, is he played those four games against the chargers, rams, eagles, and giants.
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Nov 15, 2023 13:42
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yeah Dak's a very good QB most of the time
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Nov 15, 2023 17:05
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Diqnol posted:Yeah a lights out performance against the devito Giants is far from impressive He absolutely eviscerated the Jets who went on to stymie every other quarterback they faced this season
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Nov 15, 2023 19:42
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He also lost to the Cardinals football is weird
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Nov 15, 2023 20:22
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Nov 16, 2023 03:40
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Oh so dak only looks good cause he's been playing exclusively in garbage time all season, got it.
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Nov 16, 2023 06:30
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Sam Howell is going to get blasted across the 8th dimension the rest of the season.
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Nov 16, 2023 09:50
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Bills are hosed
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Nov 16, 2023 10:16
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Asproigerosis posted:Oh so dak only looks good cause he's been playing exclusively in garbage time all season, got it. Well, when you're up by 18 after a quarter and a half, there's a lot of 'garbage time' in every game
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Nov 16, 2023 14:56
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https://x.com/HogsHaven/status/1724870260711473532?s=20 No. gently caress no.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:10
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Cartoon Man posted:https://x.com/HogsHaven/status/1724870260711473532?s=20 Washington has an offensive coach that may or may not light the NFL on fire the second he leaves so they can hire a defensive minded HC instead. Lmao.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:12
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Cartoon Man posted:https://x.com/HogsHaven/status/1724870260711473532?s=20 Truly, Washington fans do not deserve that. Here's hoping Tepper cuts him a check in the high eight figures.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:25
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The only move I expect is Bill leaving the NFL to coach some Pop Warner team into becoming a dynasty. More Ring camera footage of him leaving the households will surface on the regular.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:38
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The Dave posted:The only move I expect is Bill leaving the NFL to coach some Pop Warner team into becoming a dynasty. More Ring camera footage of him leaving the households will surface on the regular. Bill is going to Rutgers Lacrosse, their 20th ranking is inexcusable and his defensive background will help get them back to relevance.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:43
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The Dave posted:The only move I expect is Bill leaving the NFL to coach some Pop Warner team into becoming a dynasty. More Ring camera footage of him leaving the households will surface on the regular. That or hosting a documentary on special teams. Episode 1: The Long Snapper (Running time 3 hours 21 minutes)
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Nov 16, 2023 15:45
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Cartoon Man posted:https://x.com/HogsHaven/status/1724870260711473532?s=20 If he didn't have control of personnel and left the offense to EB (or someone otherwise competent), would he be so bad? All signs point to Harris hiring a real GM.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:56
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