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TikTok Says It's Not the Algorithm, Teens Are Just Pro-Palestine I don't think it's unexpected for the Bin Laden thing to go viral, a couple million views on TikTok isn't huge for a given subject, and given how uniformly pro-Israel the government and mainstream media has been, you're going to be willing to look outside the Overton window. The fact that basically the worst villain in American eyes since Hitler is being heard out is a sign of out of touch with young people respectable media has become. A whole lot of these people believe they've been lied to, and trying to see what else they've been lied to about. Anyone on SA thinking this is a secret plot by TikTok to make kids pro-Hamas should remember how much of the same dynamics were at play in the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:A big part of the reason is that insurance companies fight to negotiate the lowest payments and hospitals want the most money, so the prices are all just made up wild numbers that exist to be negotiated downwards. Occasionally hitting an innocent self-pay customer in the crossfire, financially ruining them in a spiral of debt and depression
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Nov 16, 2023 15:54
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tractor fanatic posted:TikTok Says It's Not the Algorithm, Teens Are Just Pro-Palestine yeah i dont think its some secret plot either. I just think its angry kids looking for alternative sources of media and truths and will just believe anything that sounds credible, which i dont fully blame them for. alot of these kids wernt even alive when 9/11 happened so i can't really blame them. It doesnt help that alot of footage out their is from different wars and other horrible poo poo and it all gets meshed together. shits depressing.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:56
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koolkal posted:If your assertion is that people shouldn't be reading it, it seems logical that we should then not allow people to read it. This doesn't logically follow at all. There are many reasons that, even if we prefer people aren't endorsing hateful manifestos to each other, destroying online access to those manifestos might not be a viable solution. There are many, many things that we don't want people to do, but we lack any decent and effective way to stop people from doing them. That's what I happen to think - it's obviously bad that people are sharing a murderous spiel against Jews and gays as "the real truth" but trying to take down the letter only exacerbates the problem while violating valuable free speech principles.
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Nov 16, 2023 15:58
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1724942399431217457 Have you actually read Bin Laden's letter to America? Because it literally opens with talk about "the Jewish problem" and decadent western value and it's not really great that some people are "having their eyes opened" by it. The rest of it just basic "Europe and the U.S. killed people in the middle east, so don't be surprised when we try to kill you back." and "corporations bad" that you can read anywhere. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 16:03
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This doesn't logically follow at all. There are many reasons that, even if we prefer people aren't endorsing hateful manifestos to each other, destroying online access to those manifestos might not be a viable solution. So in theory, if there was a way for someone to completely wipe this document from the internet/libraries/etc., you would support it? Your entire argument here is on the practicality of deleting it, not the merits of deleting it, if I'm reading it correctly.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:08
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koolkal posted:So in theory, if there was a way for someone to completely wipe this document from the internet/libraries/etc., you would support it? No you're not reading it correctly. Read it again: "but trying to take down the letter only exacerbates the problem while violating valuable free speech principles."
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Nov 16, 2023 16:13
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tractor fanatic posted:TikTok Says It's Not the Algorithm, Teens Are Just Pro-Palestine Fun fact: this is not even Tiktok-specific: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/11/13/tiktok-facebook-instagram-gaza-hastags/
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Nov 16, 2023 16:13
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Civilized Fishbot posted:No you're not reading it correctly. Read it again: Okay but the rest of your post talks about "a viable solution" and "we lack any decent and effective way to stop people from doing them" Why throw these parts in there if you disagree on the basis of free speech, which you only mention in the last 3 words of the post? If you disagree on free speech principles, you should probably make that the main point of your post, not something you add at the very end.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:16
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tractor fanatic posted:TikTok Says It's Not the Algorithm, Teens Are Just Pro-Palestine Good, honest information is freely available and has been freely available for everyone for a long time now. It's a problem when kids say their eyes have been opened by an anti-Semitic screed. I think that media literacy has gotten very poor amongst everyone, but especially younger people.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:16
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It's embarrassing for anyone who reads something written by Osama bin Laden and thinks they have to hand it to him, but I don't think you can generalize from some tiktoks to "this is what young people believe"
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Nov 16, 2023 16:18
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I live in Texas, there aren't many Jews here, I think fewer than 300k, so I don't know very many Jewish people. But I was just talking to one of the few Jewish friends I do have and she told me that she had protesters show up to her temple to protest Israel. She's not a zionist, she opposes Israeli military action in Gaza, she's a sweet, kind person and she's terrified because someone's already tried to burn down her synagogue (some years ago, not because of this) and now you have a group of people, are then neo Nazis? are they leftists?, showing up to protest a random temple in Austin Texas like that has anything to do with Israel or Gaza. There has been a disconcerting trend of anti-semitism on social media over the last few years and opportunistic bigots and racists are using the justified horror at the actions of the israeli government as a way to get to naive younger people and grow their movement.   small butter posted:Good, honest information is freely available and has been freely available for everyone for a long time now. It's a problem when kids say their eyes have been opened by an anti-Semitic screed. I think that media literacy has gotten very poor amongst everyone, but especially younger people. Exact same thing happened with 9/11 conspiracy theories, I don't think we should "teach the controversy" by encouraging Gen Z to watch Loose Change
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Nov 16, 2023 16:19
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small butter posted:Good, honest information is freely available and has been freely available for everyone for a long time now. It's a problem when kids say their eyes have been opened by an anti-Semitic screed. I think that media literacy has gotten very poor amongst everyone, but especially younger people. Did the generations that supported the Global War on Terrorism have more or less media literacy than the Zoomers?
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Nov 16, 2023 16:20
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koolkal posted:Okay but the rest of your post talks about "a viable solution" and "we lack any decent and effective way to stop people from doing them" I disagree with banning the letter for mainly two reasons - it would exacerbate conspiratorial antisemitism and homophobia and it would violate the free speech ideals which enable democracy. I describe both these reasons so you have twice as many chances to understand why "it's bad that people are endorsing bigoted screeds to each other" does not logically imply "someone should destroy all access to these letters." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 16:20
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James Garfield posted:It's embarrassing for anyone who reads something written by Osama bin Laden and thinks they have to hand it to him, but I don't think you can generalize from some tiktoks to "this is what young people believe" yeah this. its dumb overly online kids and adults who are mad about the world and justifiably mad at israel doing genocide and are going down some bad rabbit holes
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Nov 16, 2023 16:20
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small butter posted:Good, honest information is freely available and has been freely available for everyone for a long time now. It's a problem when kids say their eyes have been opened by an anti-Semitic screed. I think that media literacy has gotten very poor amongst everyone, but especially younger people. Kids are going down this rabbit hole because they are seeing their government and media openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide. For them, "media literacy" means the entirety of Western media has no credibility and should be disregarded.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:25
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zoux posted:I live in Texas, there aren't many Jews here, I think fewer than 300k, so I don't know very many Jewish people. But I was just talking to one of the few Jewish friends I do have and she told me that she had protesters show up to her temple to protest Israel. She's not a zionist, she opposes Israeli military action in Gaza, she's a sweet, kind person and she's terrified because someone's already tried to burn down her synagogue (some years ago, not because of this) and now you have a group of people, are then neo Nazis? are they leftists?, showing up to protest a random temple in Austin Texas like that has anything to do with Israel or Gaza. And yet somehow I don't think we will see the GOP declaring we need to ban Twitter.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:26
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Devor posted:Occasionally hitting an innocent self-pay customer in the crossfire, financially ruining them in a spiral of debt and depression Yep. It's complete nonsense, but everyone has their system set up that way and doesn't want to be the first person to start charging/asking for "reasonable" final prices. A pharma CEO was testifying before congress back in the 2010's and basically explained it pretty bluntly. Some Senator asked how they can charge $1,468 a month for a drug that costs $28 a month to manufacture. Their response was, "98% of people taking the drug pay $10 out of pocket and their insurance covers $40 for a total of only $50 in revenue on our end. It's not fair to say we charge that much." The follow-up question was about the 2% that pay retail price and they just said that most of those are private buyers or clinics who supply themselves with the medication. The small section of that remaining is uninsured people who don't know about their uninsured coupon program and that pharmacies should tell their customers about it, because they can only pay $10 with it. Someone asked why they don't just charge $50 instead of $1,468 if they only get $50 from 98% of sales anyway and they basically just said that everyone uses crazy made up numbers, so we have to use that number to get the $50 we want (also unspoken is the individual uninsured self-pay people who are paying $1,468 are basically just bonuses) and we can't change the system.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:26
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BUUNNI posted:Did the generations that supported the Global War on Terrorism have more or less media literacy than the Zoomers? Everyone has less media literacy now because the methods of influence have become so ubiquitous and sources of information so plentiful that it's very, very difficult to discriminate between signal and noise, even for the very media savvy. Your average 19 year old has no loving chance.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:26
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Ms Adequate posted:I feel like one thing that makes home births seem appealing is that in the modern age we've forgotten how bad things can go during a birth. I recall an article a few years ago where the writer was an expectant mother who attended a class on giving birth (the article may have actually been about home births but I don't recall for sure) and the instructor asked what people regarded as the biggest dangers. A couple of people said stuff like "It'll take a long time" "It'll be very painful" and then someone busts out "Both I and my baby die in childbirth." Yeah this. My wife is an OBGYN and most people have no idea how many things can go wrong and do pretty frequently. She's forever coming home with crazy stories about frantically saving a baby or mothers life. A very quick google tells me the rate of death in childbirth for women not that long ago before modern medicine was 1.5% and goes much higher the further back you go. I believe the rate of the baby dying is probably much much higher anecdotally from my wife's stories that is usually where the problem is. So at best you've probably got a 1 in 50 chance you or your baby could die without medical intervention. That is pretty high. There aren't more deaths from homebirths because a lot of the more common issues will present in time to get to the hospital or there will be warning factors in your checkups beforehand and you get advised strongly not to do a homebirth, but realistically everybody should just suck it up and have your baby in a hospital. I can understand why people want homebirths but they are taken on a pretty high risk with literally the most precious thing in their lives. Seems crazy to me but I hear stories about the bad stuff everyday so 
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Nov 16, 2023 16:29
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tractor fanatic posted:Kids are going down this rabbit hole because they are seeing their government and media openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide. For them, "media literacy" means the entirety of Western media has no credibility and should be disregarded. Very few of these people consume news from any source other than their social media. You think Gen Alpha is reading the NYT, watching the Nightly News with Whoever the gently caress, waking up early to catch the Sunday shows? No they get it from tik tok  
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Nov 16, 2023 16:34
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tractor fanatic posted:Kids are going down this rabbit hole because they are seeing their government and media openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide. For them, "media literacy" means the entirety of Western media has no credibility and should be disregarded. Are kids these days watching CNN? What western media are they even consuming?
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Nov 16, 2023 16:35
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zoux posted:Everyone has less media literacy now because the methods of influence have become so ubiquitous and sources of information so plentiful that it's very, very difficult to discriminate between signal and noise, even for the very media savvy. Your average 19 year old has no loving chance. This is another reason we shouldn't remove primary documentation; I want to read what the person said, not what the media said that they said or what some person on twitter thinks about it. I don't want to rely on others interpretation of something because I don't even know were reading the same thing as witnessed by this one-sided conversation. School shooter manifestos, The Turner Diaries, Mein Kumph, Osama Bin Ladens letter to America should all be archived to read. Trying to hide the information doesn't work and claiming that it helps media literacy is pretty ridiculous to me.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:37
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tractor fanatic posted:Kids are going down this rabbit hole because they are seeing their government and media openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide. For them, "media literacy" means the entirety of Western media has no credibility and should be disregarded. I think your applying a narrative or motivation to their actions that isn't there. According to the same article, most of them are teens that don't follow politics, don't watch the news, and weren't very aware of the I/P conflict or American foreign policy until recently. That seems to indicate that it isn't a mass group of people rejecting their old sources of news and is more that this is the first they have heard about it because it has come up in the place where they usually get their information for the first time. Also, the huge disclaimer that a bunch of influencers on TikTok does not remotely fully represent or equal everyone under the age of 20.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I think your applying a narrative or motivation to their actions that isn't there. According to the same article, most of them are teens that don't follow politics, don't watch the news, and weren't very aware of the I/P conflict or American foreign policy until recently. That seems to indicate that it isn't a mass group of people rejecting their old sources of news and is more that this is the first they have heard about it because it has come up in the place where they usually get their information for the first time. The government and media are still openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide though. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 16, 2023 16:43
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gurragadon posted:This is another reason we shouldn't remove primary documentation; I want to read what the person said, not what the media said that they said or what some person on twitter thinks about it. I don't want to rely on others interpretation of something because I don't even know were reading the same thing as witnessed by this one-sided conversation. No one disagrees. And all that stuff is available, if you want to read the letter it's hosted online by the US Government. But you would agree that reading those things in a vacuum, without the proper historical and geopolitical context would be foolish, right? Again this letter STARTS with "the jews control the world", this isn't something you have to squint at, this isn't a dogwhistle, it is blatant, open anti-semitism and pro-salafist theocracy and I'm very disheartened to see people try and defend it under the auspices of "Why, it's simply good information about US action in the middle east in the latter half of the 20th century" Like the next thing he says after "the jews did this" is "America's problems also come from not being under strict shariah law". These are not leftist values. Nucleic Acids posted:The government and media are still openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide though. Can you be gaslit if you aren't paying attention? Also no amount of "gaslighting" by the US government justifies the spread of anti-semitic and genocidal rhetoric online. It's not a "what about this" situation. zoux fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 16:43
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zoux posted:Can you be gaslit if you aren't paying attention? What actual evidence is there that they aren’t paying attention.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:46
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zoux posted:
Because "it benefits my political beliefs" is the answer.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:47
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The House Ethics Committee released its report on George Santos. To the shock of nobody, it turns out he's exactly as dishonest as he seems!WaPo posted:House investigators found “substantial evidence” that Rep. George Santos (R-N.Y.) knowingly violated a litany of ethics and criminal laws, according a House Ethics Committee report released Thursday. However, they didn't make any recommendations on what to do about it, because that apparently would take longer (and the Republican majority is so slim that they don't want to lose any more members).
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Nov 16, 2023 16:48
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"Getting news from TikTok" doesn't mean you are just watching some zoomer talking head any more than "getting news from Twitter" means you are just reading what randos post. Social media is about sharing content, like articles, videos, and links. A huge amount of TikTok's content is just videos ripped from elsewhere, and in a news context this usually means clips of mainstream media, or clips of Biden etc.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:50
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zoux posted:No one disagrees. And all that stuff is available, if you want to read the letter it's hosted online by the US Government. But you would agree that reading those things in a vacuum, without the proper historical and geopolitical context would be foolish, right? What I'm saying is you are talking about the wrong letter while talking about everyone having bad media literacy. This isn't the letter that was on The Guardian. https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ubl2016/english/To%20the%20American%20people.pdf This was the letter that was taken down. https://archive.is/6xSxg#selection-1283.0-1605.182
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Nov 16, 2023 16:50
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zoux posted:Everyone has less media literacy now because the methods of influence have become so ubiquitous and sources of information so plentiful that it's very, very difficult to discriminate between signal and noise, even for the very media savvy. Your average 19 year old has no loving chance. If everyone has less media literacy now then it follows that older generations have much less of it since they have spent more time being subjected to government propaganda and foreign agents in legacy and social media.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:50
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Nucleic Acids posted:What actual evidence is there that they aren’t paying attention. Most of the videos linked in the Twitter thread start out saying, "I haven't really been paying attention to this before, but I saw this on my feed and decided to look into it. This blew my mind and reading the letter has opened my eyes." Almost all of the videos end with "Osama was right" or "Me realizing he was right."
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Nov 16, 2023 16:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Most of the videos linked in the Twitter thread start out saying, "I haven't really been paying attention to this before, but I saw this on my feed and decided to look into it. This blew my mind and reading the letter has opened my eyes." Seems like the mainstream media and the government should stop lying about the genocide then.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:52
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Nucleic Acids posted:Seems like the mainstream media and the government should stop lying about the genocide then. By posting antisemitic propaganda?
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Nov 16, 2023 16:55
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These tiktoks remind me of ordering some soviet literature off amazon during early Obama at like 13 and deciding I was a stalinist now No other leftist thought, of course, straight from nothing to edgiest possible pick convincing me
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Nov 16, 2023 16:55
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Mooseontheloose posted:By posting antisemitic propaganda? No, there actually are alternatives and I know you know that.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:56
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gurragadon posted:What I'm saying is you are talking about the wrong letter while talking about everyone having bad media literacy. Ah my mistake, thanks. To be clear it's the one that says quote:(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:56
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Nucleic Acids posted:Seems like the mainstream media and the government should stop lying about the genocide then. They clearly aren't reacting to something they didn't know was happening and hadn't consumed, though. According to the people making the videos, the theory that they are doing this as a kind of rejection of their traditional sources and they were driven to Osama is not the case. They are saying they were never exposed to/thinking about any of it before and this is the first thing they have seen about it and all of Osama's predictions came true.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:58
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zoux posted:Ah my mistake, thanks. To be clear it's the one that says I don't agree with it. But you were wrong and talking about the wrong document. That is why it's important to keep the documents up for media literacy.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:59
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