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Dapper_Swindler posted:i hate being that dickhead and i will again probably eat my words. but the project 2025 poo poo is kinda overblow sorta. It's not overblown. If Trump wins, he won't do everything day 1. It takes time. Besides, you'd be in a civil war before most of it happens anyway.
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Nov 15, 2023 10:20
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How would there be a civil war? I mean if democrats grew a spine and blue states seceded and sought international legitimacy that'd be neat but I see no indication that they'd do that. They'd roll over and take 50 years of fascism like they've rolled over and taken losses before.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:13
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Bodyholes posted:How would there be a civil war? I mean if democrats grew a spine and blue states seceded and sought international legitimacy that'd be neat but I see no indication that they'd do that. Come on now, you aren't even trying. 
VorpalBunny fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 20:01
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Bodyholes posted:How would there be a civil war? I mean if democrats grew a spine and blue states seceded and sought international legitimacy that'd be neat but I see no indication that they'd do that. They wouldn’t “roll over” they’d help them like they always have. Dems are just as pro-surveillance, pro-law enforcement, and pro-authoritarian foreign policy as their GOP colleagues. And that’s unfortunately the relationship the duopoly has with itself. The establishment of both parties largely see each other as being co-workers and colleagues.
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Nov 17, 2023 10:59
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BUUNNI posted:They wouldn’t “roll over” they’d help them like they always have. Dems are just as pro-surveillance, pro-law enforcement, and pro-authoritarian foreign policy as their GOP colleagues. And that’s unfortunately the relationship the duopoly has with itself. The establishment of both parties largely see each other as being co-workers and colleagues. And people said *I* was baiting... The party fighting to end the war on drugs, mass pardoning all federal drug convictions, and passing legalization laws state by state is, in fact, different from the party that uses felony disenfranchisement and gerrymandering to lock down the political process of the states it runs with an iron fist.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:56
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https://twitter.com/dylanewells/status/1725512529726607476 seems like Ron is done and haley is probably number 2 least for now. Feels good to be sorta right about ron being dead the second he got out of florida.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:20
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/dylanewells/status/1725512529726607476 Most of the republican primaries are winner takes all so if the none of the non-trump candidates absolutely crush it as early as possible they're all done.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:38
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zetamind2000 posted:Most of the republican primaries are winner takes all so if the none of the non-trump candidates absolutely crush it as early as possible they're all done. oh yeah. i think desantis holds on as long as possible because if he doesn't the knives at home might come out faster.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:09
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They may try the last minute consolidation that dems did in 2020.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:11
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Bodyholes posted:They may try the last minute consolidation that dems did in 2020. That's not what quite happened there.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:13
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If by "last minute consolidation" you mean "most of the no-chancers drop out and endorse one person just before Super Tuesday", sure, that's like 75% of all presidential primary campaigns
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Nov 17, 2023 19:56
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Sorry Ronnie D, at least I appreciated you yelling at LCEC to get the power back on more quickly after Hurricane Ian.
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Nov 18, 2023 12:31
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This project 2025 stuff sounds like a conspiracy theory to me because I can't reconcile the hysteria in the press with the lackadaisical attitude of those actually in power. If the next Republican is going to use the tools of the surveillance and carceral state to establish a dictatorship, why did Democrats reauthorize the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act under Trump and expand his surveillance powers, that doesn't sound like the actions of people who believe he's a threat to the Republic. If it's because they only realized the danger after Jan 6, why didn't they repeal it when they had full control of they government. Or, thanks to Tuberville, important military posts are vacant, ready for Trump to fill with cronies if he gets elected. This is an extremely dangerous thing to allow if Trump is planning to establish a military dictatorship, yet they all they do is scold Tuberville a bit and then let him do what he wants instead of fixing the stupid senate rule he is abusing. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 16:08
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It being real and dems being stupid and incompetent can both be true at the same time.
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Nov 18, 2023 16:29
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Yeah but it's odd that the people trying to scare us about it don't even act like they believe it when they go back to work. I guess they could all just be Jar Jar Binks authorizing the clone army, but it doesn't seem worthwhile to worry myself over it if the people in power are going to hand every president the tools to become a dictator anyway. The presidency is going to change parties eventually
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Nov 18, 2023 16:44
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VitalSigns posted:This project 2025 stuff sounds like a conspiracy theory to me because I can't reconcile the hysteria in the press with the lackadaisical attitude of those actually in power. You mean why aren't they doing the thing they're actually doing? https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/...mitch-mcconnell
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Nov 18, 2023 16:45
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skeleton warrior posted:You mean why aren't they doing the thing they're actually doing? Oh I hadn't heard about that yet, it's about time. Will be interesting to see if they get a filibuster proof majority on that after they get back from their vacations.
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Nov 18, 2023 16:59
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VitalSigns posted:This project 2025 stuff sounds like a conspiracy theory to me because I can't reconcile the hysteria in the press with the lackadaisical attitude of those actually in power. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/16/politics/biden-federal-workforce-gop/index.html They are making moves to try to protect federal workers. The 'lackadaisical attitude' is just your personal media bubble. People are taking this quite seriously.
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Nov 20, 2023 15:46
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Bodyholes posted:https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/16/politics/biden-federal-workforce-gop/index.html this. I think stuff is being done in the goverment to try to prevent this kinda stuff. its just all boring and mostly not in congress though it sounds like excutive is trying to do stuff as well. I think the Trumpists make the mistake about loudly screaming about all the people they want to hurt because they are in their own weird media bubble and also assume everyone just agrees with them secretly. also the people they are picking to run this poo poo are all weird nutjob idilogues.
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Nov 20, 2023 16:10
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Bodyholes posted:They may try the last minute consolidation that dems did in 2020. eh even if they all fused together that !Trump is polling less than Trump if only by a point. hard to imagine the base voting for diet-Trump when original recipe is right there
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Nov 20, 2023 16:16
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Bodyholes posted:https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/16/politics/biden-federal-workforce-gop/index.html Doing some easily reversed executive action at the last minute in the final year of his presidency sounds lackadaisical to me, the attempted coup was almost three years ago, plus Trump was apparently being authoritarian for four years and according to Democrats was a Russian plant and they still expanded his domestic spying powers, fully supported the drone program and the power of the executive to carry out assassinations without judicial oversight, they keep pumping more funding to the reactionary police departments that are supposedly going to be Trump's footsoldiers putting down liberal resistance, etc. So idk still seems like they either don't take it seriously themselves or are complicit because I can't reconcile the contradictions between their behavior and the project 2025 conspiracy theory. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 17:24
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Of course, I'm also old enough to remember the same liberal conspiracy theories about Bush and then when 2008 came along he just quietly shuffled off and let a guy named Barack Obama get inaugurated, so that might be why I'm more skeptical hearing it the second time around, for those who are experiencing it for the first time it's always more exciting. quote:
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Nov 20, 2023 18:06
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VitalSigns posted:the attempted coup was almost three years ago, plus Trump was apparently being authoritarian for four years and according to Democrats was a Russian plant and [quote="VitalSigns" post="536055488"]they still expanded his domestic spying powers, And it's not like Trump is sitting in the oval office with a crystal ball looking at all this sweet sweet national security data - it's handled by the intelligence bureaucrats that he spent his entire presidency raging against. It's even possible that evidence in the criminal cases against Trump was gathered using abilities granted by the PATRIOT Act. Part of the entire rationale for "Project 2025" is that the domestic spying powers that are ripe for executive abuses were gate kept by professional civil servants rather than handed directly over to the political team for exploitation. VitalSigns posted:they keep pumping more funding to the reactionary police departments that are supposedly going to be Trump's footsoldiers putting down liberal resistance, etc. In any case, anybody who is looking for solutions to state and local level policing from the federal government is really looking in the wrong place. But if you want to talk about actual material effects of this administration on policing, then a better thing to point to than a token funding bill, that was passed mostly for political pandering, would be the Justice Department reinstating consent decrees against police and sheriff's departments with histories of abuse, which had been eliminated under Jeff Sessions. (And consent decrees do have a track record of improving department conduct, if not making it good.)
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Nov 20, 2023 18:23
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VitalSigns posted:Of course, I'm also old enough to remember the same liberal conspiracy theories about Bush and then when 2008 came along he just quietly shuffled off and let a guy named Barack Obama get inaugurated, so that might be why I'm more skeptical hearing it the second time around, for those who are experiencing it for the first time it's always more exciting. "Oh, Trump and his lackeys put together an entire team of fake electors, while breaking a bunch of laws, to try to confuse the electoral college results produced by the voters, and tried to open the door to their inclusion by disrupting Congress with organized violence? Well, in this Atlantic op ed from 2016 somebody says Hillary should try to use faithless electors, so do Dems REALLY care about Democracy?  "It's a lot like, "decades of ironclad evidence of anthropogenic global warming? Heh, I guess somebody wasn't reading about the new Ice Age in Time Magazine in the 70s. "
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Nov 20, 2023 18:28
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Misunderstood posted:I don't feel like saying "the Democrats appropriated the equivalent of about 1% of national police funding for explicitly mandated training purposes, alongside resources for crime prevention and the criminal justice system" every time somebody says something like this, so I guess I am just going to have to accept that people are going to keep saying this, and that people are going to keep taking the incorrect conclusion from it that Democrats are just out there buying Abrams tanks for every sheriff in the heartland. This time, I'll bother pointing out that it's a really blatant false equivalence to say Republicans and Democrats are equal on policing issues. I mean the cops were just pepper-spraying and attacking people protesting the slaughter in Gaza (at the encouragement of the DNC), doesn't seem like they are doing much to prevent suppression of protests against a hypothetical Trump coup.
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Nov 20, 2023 18:33
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VitalSigns posted:I didn't say "they are equal on policing issues", because that's not the point, the point is whether they are taking the threat of Trump using the police to suspend democracy and suppress resistance seriously, and they are not. Increasing funding to the cops and basically giving up on any real reform is not taking the threat seriously even if Republicans are worse and openly celebrating black bagging BLM protestors in 2020 But given that we are talking about, again, about a 1% funding boost, don't you think that's immaterial to the ability of police to carry out Trump's wishes, or to Trump's ability to command them under his limited authority when dealing with local officials? Do you think that the capacity of police to be used as a paramilitary force would be in any way diminished if Biden hadn't passed his dumb "Democrats don't hate cops, honest, please vote for us!" bills? Like, I don't know, there are so so so many motivations in every action that a legislature or executive takes that to expect every one of them to be perfectly aligned with the idea of "keep a future dictator from overthrowing the bureaucratic order" is pretty silly, especially when I imagine the administration's Plan A for not letting Trump remake the federal government in his image is not letting him win an election. ---- As for Project 2025 itself, I think it's kind of like Evil Green New Deal - a bunch of stuff that is delightful to its proponents and horrifying to its opponents, that is unlikely to be implemented at nearly anything close to the scale imagined due to practical constraints, but where the election of its supporters will have an impact that pushes things in the direction of its original goal. We didn't get a Green New Deal but we got the IRA which has a lot of great stuff if you care about the climate and a lot of terrible stuff if you are an oil company. With Project 2025 they wouldn't get all the way to their dream team wingnut government, but they'd do a lot of damage trying and have some limited success. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 18:37
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Misunderstood posted:Given that we are talking about, again, about a 1% funding boost, don't you think that's immaterial to the ability of police to carry out Trump's wishes, or to Trump's ability to command them under his limited authority when dealing with local officials? Do you think that the capacity of police to be used as a paramilitary force would be in any way diminished if Biden hadn't passed his dumb "Democrats don't hate cops, honest, please vote for us!" bills? No offense but you seem to have trouble connecting your arguments to what you want to prove. Misunderstood posted:
So this just gets back to what I said about there being no reason to stay up at night worrying. If Democrats have to fund cops more and give up on police reform in order to win, even if that means Republicans will have the tools to end democracy if Dems lose, then dictatorship is coming either way. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 18:42
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VitalSigns posted:Do I think +1% funding to cops will make it easier for Trump to use them against resistance to a coup, no but again that is not the point, the point is: is that funding plus-up consistent with a serious attempt to prevent it, and the answer is no. If Democrats believed that a perceived hostility to police was a serious electoral disadvantage for them, and that letting incredibly unpopular "defund" narratives stick to them could lose the election, wouldn't a token show of support for police be an action aimed towards keeping power, when the number one way to keep somebody from abusing power is keeping them from having it? You know, versus coming out super hot for an incredibly unpopular position like defund that they don't even have the Constitutional power to implement because they're funded by different governments? VitalSigns posted:Ok but the presidency will change hands eventually no matter what they do. quote:So this just gets back to what I said about there being no reason to stay up at night worrying. If Democrats have to fund cops more and give up on police reform in order to win, even if that means Republicans will have the tools to end democracy if Dems lose, then dictatorship is coming either way. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 18:46
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Misunderstood posted:This is a bizarre assertion, I'm sorry. Your inability to explain your position in a comprehensible way is not my failing. Your argument is, if I'm not misunderstanding, that holding police funding level does nothing to prevent a strongman from exploiting local police power in enacting his agenda. So, if the federal Democrats were really worried about a second Trump term, what is the action they would have taken regarding police funding - which they do not control - that would have demonstrated that concern? Pass legislation to reform the police at a federal level, use the DoJ to investigate and imprison cops for all the brutality and civil rights violations committed in 2020 instead of mostly ignoring it, especially defund the police and if necessary completely rebuild them at the state and city level in places where they have control. Literally anything other than allow them to remain white supremacist death squads?? Misunderstood posted:I think you just want permission to not care if Democrats don't win the election and you're not going to get it from a lot of people, not with this argument. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 18:53
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I remember 2008 pretty clearly. First time I'm hearing about this supposed coup fear right now. Considering Bush successfully stole an election I always felt the left was far too passive and compliant about it. They should've rolled out the Sore Loserman bumper stickers for Trump, for nostalgia's sake.
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Nov 20, 2023 18:53
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Bodyholes posted:I remember 2008 pretty clearly. First time I'm hearing about this supposed coup fear right now. "[Opponent] is going to do [extreme thing they might do]!" has always been around as a call to action - I mean, there was probably someone out there afraid of Carter canceling elections - but that doesn't mean that every time somebody says it that it's equally vehement, or equally consequential, or (especially) equally accurate. VitalSigns posted:use the DoJ Not to mention that the DOJ *might* have put a little bit of resources investigating January 6 and prosecuting people? Like, just a smidge? I think I might have seen a few tens of thousands of news stories about it. vvvvv It seems like your answer for "what would have been enough to demonstrate that" is "more than what they did," and would be in pretty much any set of circumstances. You're ignoring a lot of things they did do and then when informed/reminded of them you handwave them away. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 18:55
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Misunderstood posted:On some level you are ignoring things that the DOJ has actually done, again, because you are probably mostly reading sources that are laser-focused on ways Dems are "failing the left." Did you even know about the consent decrees? I'm sure they've done some things, the question once again isn't "have they done anything it all" it's "are their actions commensurate with the danger they are promoting with the project 2025 conspiracy" Like, if you believe it's a dire end-of-democracy event coming as early as 2025, the usual stuff about how we should be satisfied with incrementalism doesn't apply because there's no time for that.
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Nov 20, 2023 18:57
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VitalSigns posted:I'm sure they've done some things, the question once again isn't "have they done anything it all" it's "are their actions commensurate with the danger they are promoting with the project 2025 conspiracy" So the answer is “Democrats should do incredibly unpopular things that will destroy them in elections like cutting police funding because that will prevent Trump abuses when he inevitably gets re-elected due to Democrats doing incredibly unpopular things?” That seems terribly stupid, based on some weird idea that if we cut national funding for police budgets by 5 or 10 percent that will somehow make a coup inevitably fail Democrats have to thread the needle between “secure the government from being able to be easily couped” and “prevent Trump from walking back into office with a Senate and Congressional majority” and you are being weirdly obsessed with the idea that both of these things should be ideologically consistent
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Nov 20, 2023 19:07
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indulging in what about the democrats in the republican primary thread Trump is the nominee barring his death so there isn't much else to talk about I suppose
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Nov 20, 2023 19:12
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Misunderstood posted:I would suggest that in extending the PATRIOT act provisions Democrats were mostly acting out of concern for... you know, national security? Just because it's CW among a certain percentage of the population that it's all just bullshit made up to oppress us, most of the people passing these laws genuinely do believe they are necessary to prevent terrorism, or at least that voters perceive them as such and would punish them for opposing them. "The President is dangerous and doesn't care about the country or Constitution" is not really a problem where the proper response is "eliminate our intelligence capabilities so he can't use them I mean, what's more important, protecting civil liberties against the guy who is supposedly going to become a dictator, or wiretapping mosques... E: skeleton warrior posted:So the answer is “Democrats should do incredibly unpopular things that will destroy them in elections like cutting police funding because that will prevent Trump abuses when he inevitably gets re-elected due to Democrats doing incredibly unpopular things?” That seems terribly stupid, based on some weird idea that if we cut national funding for police budgets by 5 or 10 percent that will somehow make a coup inevitably fail If it's so dire that they can't do much to secure the government in the event of a Republican victory or else Republicans will win faster then, once again, why worry. A Republican will win the presidency eventually, it's just a matter of time. It just does not make a lot of sense to me personally to worry myself over this hypothetical dictatorship reality VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 19:13
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Democrats' actions should not be taken as a good gauge for how dangerous conservative plans are. Just a sign of how feckless and weak they are. Republicans had the plan to take over state legislatures, gerrymander to lock in their majorities, then continue winning states and locking them down until they had enough for a Constitutional Convention. There were plenty states dems controlled in 2010 that could've taken measures--passing independent redistricting commissions, constitutionally enshrining separation of powers. Instead they sat back, did nothing, and got rolled. We are still dealing with this issue.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:24
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VitalSigns posted:
Except a) you’re literally the only person in this argument stating that a cut to federal police funding is making a decisive difference in whether a coup succeeds or not, and you’re making that argument specifically to downplay the idea that Democrats are serious about preventing a coup; and b) you’ve been provided plenty of evidence of other ways that the Biden administration is attempting to fight a potential future coup and you are hand waving that away with “but if they don’t cut federal police funding they can’t possibly succeed so I refuse to believe they’re taking it seriously”
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Nov 20, 2023 19:28
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Moore v Harper had the power to straight up end democracy instantly and we got extremely lucky 2 republicans flipped for a 6-3. If MAGAs win the presidency enough times, they will have enough of a court majority to achieve their goal through this path. Just another avenue that it could all end. What the current Republican primary establishes is that Trump is daddy. Allegiance to Trump is mandatory to clear the primaries now. The process of replacing the handful of Republicans left that have some iota of statesmanship is ongoing. Best way the left can assist is by rewarding MAGA Republicans with victories.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:42
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VitalSigns posted:Executive authority doesn't seem that robust to me, because can't Trump just undo that if he wins? Or congress can overturn it with the Congressional Review Act if they win, like what happened to a bunch of stuff Obama implemented using rulemaking? (Shouldn't they have done something about the CRA?) Or overturned by the right-wing court like so many of Biden's other executive actions which he relied on instead of doing the hard work of passing a law? (A right-wing court he's done nothing about btw). The CRA only applies to rules submitted within the last 60 days of congress, so it wouldn't apply to any rulemaking in effect right now. If it was something that was done exclusively via executive action, then it is likely something that Trump could also reverse via executive action, though.
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Nov 20, 2023 20:16
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skeleton warrior posted:Except a) you’re literally the only person in this argument stating that a cut to federal police funding is making a decisive difference in whether a coup succeeds or not, and you’re making that argument specifically to downplay the idea that Democrats are serious about preventing a coup; and b) you’ve been provided plenty of evidence of other ways that the Biden administration is attempting to fight a potential future coup and you are hand waving that away with “but if they don’t cut federal police funding they can’t possibly succeed so I refuse to believe they’re taking it seriously” No I am not stating that "a cut to federal police funding is making a decisive difference", I listed several ways that their actions contradict their claims to believe that Trump will establish a dictatorship, giving up on police reform is only one, and the list wasn't even exhaustive. You're hyperfocusing on one example and trying to knock it down, as though there aren't a bunch of other problems. You're missing the forest for the trees. And I already explained why I don't think the stuff you guys brought up is proof they're taking it seriously. One is executive action that can be undone by the next president just as easily, the other isn't even something they've done yet...they advanced a rule in a senate committee, no date for a vote or indication they will get enough Republican support to overcome a filibuster, and even if they do it only fixes one issue. The disconnect between the hysteria that a coup is coming next year, and the same old scolding that I should appreciate that Democrats aren't doing literally nothing is so jarring to me. This isn't a situation where incrementalism is enough, you're telling me the next time Republicans win the White House they're going to coup the government and end democracy, well okay if I accept that then they should be all hands on deck putting checks on the executive and formalizing legal protections for civil rights and opposition. There's no partial credit for doing 10% of stopping a coup. Bodyholes posted:Democrats' actions should not be taken as a good gauge for how dangerous conservative plans are. Just a sign of how feckless and weak they are. Yeah it is always possible that conservatives are planning a dictatorship and the opposition party is unable/unwilling to use their time in power to prevent it, but I wouldn't worry myself over that. Democrats can't win every presidential election for the rest of our lives, so if you're right that never losing is the Dems' only hope, then it's like worrying there's an asteroid on its way to hit earth. It's coming no matter how much or little I worry. But I admit, I'm also kinda jaded having been around the block enough times to hear it every election: one team says the other team will become dictators if they win. Republicans said it about Obama, Democrats said it about W, Republicans said it about Clinton, Democratic-Republicans said it about Federalists. Adams is a monarchist who will crown himself king. Jefferson is an infidel who will ban the Bible. It's exciting the first time, but after several elections you start to see the manipulation for what it is and it becomes old hat.
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Nov 21, 2023 14:43
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