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Calax posted:Yes they stepped away from the Southern Aesthetic, but I think that's a good thing. In the 20 years that had passed since SC1 had come out, it wasn't exactly great PR to have one of your factions constantly running around with the literal Stars and Bars on it. fwiw, I agree. Nobody needed that poo poo in the 90s either. It's not even necessarily bad to move away from that vibe besides that, I just always found it jarring that like 3 dudes still talk like good ole boys in a story full of Proper Talkers. (I also, uh, don't super hate SC2's story because I wasn't looking for much from it and didn't think the SC1 story was anything but "cool.")
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Nov 16, 2023 03:50
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PurpleXVI posted:I don't know, I kind of agree with SC1 being a special sort of camp. It tried to be serious, but that kind of over-the-top serious of heavy metal albums, kind of like Warcraft 1 and 2. SC2 tries to wind it down into something more realistic that takes itself more seriously and I don't really think that works. SC1 I can also forgive a lot because it tries very little related to melodrama, while 2 sure wants its characters and their VERY. SPECIAL. EMOTIONS. to be taken extremely seriously. much like Diablo and Warcraft, I think a lot of that came down to amazing casting. Not that there isn't good work from the people in SC2, but SC1 has a certain panache that came from having a core cast that knew their assignments and nailed them with the limited time given for recording
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Nov 16, 2023 06:16
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Calax posted:The view I get from reading the thread is that a lot of the people involved are coming at it to tear it down. It's hit that point where nostagia basically carries the first game, but the second becomes cool to bash. Compare starcraft to Star Wars, The original trilogy is a cultural touchstone for a lot of people who just overlook stupid stuff because they get goosebumps at "I am your father". The prequel trilogy was REVILED by the population to the point it kick started Red Letter Media with a review that's longer than the work it's based on. But now, you can walk into most places and say "Hello there" and immediately get a responding "General Kenobi". In addition to this, Let's Play in general loves a dogpile. Any time a game is generally touted as 'bad' a lot of people like to pour out just to add their own 'oh man this is unbelievable trash' to the pile. I can remember the I Am Setsuna lp got so aggressive that the author even had to tell people to tone it down because they were genuinely making it unfun to show off. For my own take on WoL, I had a lot of fun with it, even after the time gap. I think it made some really questionable choices in places, Dr. Narud probably being the goofiest one, but I think if they had stuck with it it would have remained a generally fun romp with enjoyable gameplay. The bigger issue is one we won't really see until HotS, but we'll be there sooner rather than later at this point. Starcraft has always been a little goofy, and not the deepest story. But, it had a kind of earnestness that still makes it really fun to look back on. WoL has a lot of it, even if it carries the warts of a sequel so far from its source material. Just a shame about the rest of it coming up!
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Nov 16, 2023 06:30
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HoTS must have one of the most forgettable single player campaigns ever. I played through it on brutal and yet I only remember a few of the absolute dumbest plot points.
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Nov 16, 2023 06:35
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Calax posted:The view I get from reading the thread is that a lot of the people involved are coming at it to tear it down. What's interesting to me is that there's very few of those who say that the gameplay is anything less than solid. Which, y'know, is the most important thing about a game. By a significant amount.
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Nov 16, 2023 06:50
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MiddleOne posted:HoTS must have one of the most forgettable single player campaigns ever. I played through it on brutal and yet I only remember a few of the absolute dumbest plot points. What are you talking about? Heroes of the Storm didn't have a single player campaign. 
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Nov 16, 2023 06:52
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habeasdorkus posted:What's interesting to me is that there's very few of those who say that the gameplay is anything less than solid. Which, y'know, is the most important thing about a game. By a significant amount. As much as the story was meh to me, I have never found a RTS single-player campaign that is more engrossing than SC2. Anytime GiantGamesGrant shows off a cool-looking mod, I'm usually tempted enough to try it out myself.
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Nov 16, 2023 07:10
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Eeepies posted:As much as the story was meh to me, I have never found a RTS single-player campaign that is more engrossing than SC2. Anytime GiantGamesGrant shows off a cool-looking mod, I'm usually tempted enough to try it out myself. I think it's partly because a ton of the levels have some kind of unique gimmick, instead of being a sea of generic "build up your base then go and smash the enemy" missions that all merge together
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Nov 16, 2023 07:41
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Except of course for LotV where every mission is pretty much the same.MiddleOne posted:HoTS must have one of the most forgettable single player campaigns ever. I played through it on brutal and yet I only remember a few of the absolute dumbest plot points.
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Nov 16, 2023 07:41
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Calax posted:But now, you can walk into most places and say "Hello there" and immediately get a responding "General Kenobi". What kind of places are you walking into? I really can't imagine that happening outside of specific nerd niches.
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Nov 16, 2023 10:10
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The Happy Hyperbole posted:In addition to this, Let's Play in general loves a dogpile. Any time a game is generally touted as 'bad' a lot of people like to pour out just to add their own 'oh man this is unbelievable trash' to the pile. I can remember the I Am Setsuna lp got so aggressive that the author even had to tell people to tone it down because they were genuinely making it unfun to show off. In a vacuum, WoL is just... meh. It kind of works if you pretend the prequel didn't exist and don't think too hard about things. The main "crime" it commits, standing on its own, is really that you're in this DESPERATE STRUGGLE against MENGSK AND KERRIGAN and... you never meet them, they never show up, the game gives you very few reasons to really hate them. There are the couple of intro missions about Mengsk killing civilians, but that's about it on that front and there's been, what, one mission where Kerrigan personally shows up to go "lmao ur all nerds."? Even on the most forgiving, fundamental, "I haven't played Starcraft 1"-tier of analysis, it just kind of flops all attempts at creating any sort of emotional resonance for us to care about anyone. But once it meets up with HotS, the idiocy goes right through the roof and makes some relatively innocuous things from WoL completely absurd, and I think for anyone who played both, that has tainted the entire thing into being something irretrievably dogshit.
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Nov 16, 2023 12:16
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habeasdorkus posted:What's interesting to me is that there's very few of those who say that the gameplay is anything less than solid. Which, y'know, is the most important thing about a game. By a significant amount. But in an LP, the writing is spotlighted in a way it isn't when you're playing. Fully half of the updates here are between the between-mission cinematics/Cantina and there's always several days between updates, so there's a lot more time to break down and notice the storyline than when playing and only have ~5 minutes of exposure to the story before kicking more Zerg rear end.
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Nov 16, 2023 14:11
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Cythereal posted:Swann is a full tilt blue collar New Yorker accent. He's also Kel'Morian? Maybe Moria is the New Yorker planet? I was playing SC1 recently, getting midway through the Protoss campaign before the ADHD took me, and the only place in the original with the 'camp' folks are describing is the cutscenes, specifically the two famous ones: I love you sarge and cold fusion. Incidental unit dialogue is the normal pseudo-military radio chatter unless you click on them multiple times to get the bonus lines. The only thing coming close during the mission dialogue is Kerrigan's "You pig!" comment during the Antiga mission. SC1 was a game competently made for its time, and more or less wore a straight face. The humor and slapstick was all behind the curtain or buried in cutscenes that could be most charitably read as providing color to the world--some random hillbillies on Mar Sara crashing a dune buggy into a zergling and the B-team cleaning up the Amerigo after Kerrigan hosed it up. SC2, if anything, elevates the humor to a main place in the story--though it's now a humor based on Joss Whedon dialogue and slapstick rather than stereotypes about good ole boys. I think the observation from this is that SC1 was serious, while SC2 is trying to be cool. Like someone who was just naturally charismatic and cool suddenly being made aware of this, and now they are trying to be cool and their actions take all the charm out of it. SC1 is very matter-of-fact in its dialogue and it comes across as natural, while SC2 comes across as artificial because everyone is overacting like they're in a Marvel movie. Which is probably provoking the negative response in the nostalgia-soaked neurons that don't remember this clearly but recall the vibes. PurpleXVI posted:I don't know, I kind of agree with SC1 being a special sort of camp. It tried to be serious, but that kind of over-the-top serious of heavy metal albums, kind of like Warcraft 1 and 2. SC2 tries to wind it down into something more realistic that takes itself more seriously and I don't really think that works. SC1 I can also forgive a lot because it tries very little related to melodrama, while 2 sure wants its characters and their VERY. SPECIAL. EMOTIONS. to be taken extremely seriously. Kinda this, but in my replay I don't agree with over-the-top. Command and Conquer is over the top. SC1 chews the scenery in climactic moments, but that's expected--Mengsk betraying Kerrigan, his coronation speech, the zerg in general have a flare for posturing...
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Nov 16, 2023 15:00
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MiddleOne posted:HoTS must have one of the most forgettable single player campaigns ever. I played through it on brutal and yet I only remember a few of the absolute dumbest plot points. The advisors were good. Particularly my boy Abathur 
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Nov 16, 2023 17:26
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wologar posted:The advisors were good. Particularly my boy Abathur   -My. queen, I. speak. in. a. slow. and. annoying. voice. and. I. will. also. point. out. obvious. things. and. never. shut. up. -I spin sentences and barely have a one dimensional personality but I do have a cool and deep voice. -I am the greatest of the swarm, let us have moronic and pretentious lectures about what a True Leader is. -Essence, essence, essence, essence, essence essence essence ESSENCE! -Hello there I am a sudden out-of-nowhere callback to a much better game and I look, sound and act nothing like that person so I might as well be a new character.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:55
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Poil posted:Except of course for LotV where every mission is pretty much the same. Nah, all of those missions are super unique.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:01
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Poil posted:Very strongly disagree, they were all awful. that guy rules actually
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Nov 16, 2023 19:51
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:that guy rules actually Considering I remember nothing about his personality beyond has a Russian/generically Eastern European accent, I'm perfectly fine with him in SC2. Honestly, I'm interested for the LP to get to HotS because I generally felt 'fine' about it and actively enjoyed Zerus. The poo poo parts are pretty dogwater, but like... it's nothing I wasn't expecting by the time I actually played it.
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Nov 16, 2023 20:04
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Warmachine posted:Considering I remember nothing about his personality beyond has a Russian/generically Eastern European accent, I'm perfectly fine with him in SC2. Honestly, I'm interested for the LP to get to HotS because I generally felt 'fine' about it and actively enjoyed Zerus. The poo poo parts are pretty dogwater, but like... it's nothing I wasn't expecting by the time I actually played it.
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Nov 16, 2023 20:08
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anilEhilated posted:I think most people's problem with the spoilered place is that it completely retcons stuff established about Zerg in the first game to a much less interesting story. IIRC it follows on from one of those quasi-official DLC campaigns.
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Nov 16, 2023 20:11
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anilEhilated posted:I think most people's problem with the spoilered place is that it completely retcons stuff established about Zerg in the first game to a much less interesting story. I don't see how it reconned anything though. I don't remember the zerg getting an explicit origin story in either SC1 or BW. I think they might have been hinted at in the Starcraft 64 mission, but ultimately they were just psionic hivemind bugs. I should finish my classic playthrough at some point to brush up.
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Nov 16, 2023 20:24
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The manual talks about how the Zerg were made by the Xel'Naga (and then got eaten by them). Zeratul mentions it once, and that about it:JohnKilltrane posted:
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Nov 16, 2023 20:31
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The Zerg were indeed created by the ancient Xel'Naga, the same beings that empowered us in our infancy. But the Overmind grew beyond their constraints, and has at last come to finish the experiments they began long ago.
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Nostalgamus posted:The manual talks about how the Zerg were made by the Xel'Naga (and then got eaten by them). Zeratul mentions it once, and that about it: To be fair to Zeratul, his mind connected to the Overmind, specifically... who was, in fact, created by Xel'naga. But... well, getting into stuff we may touch on later.
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Nov 16, 2023 20:32
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It doesn't even really matter if it's a retcon, it's just insanely loving boring to turn the Zerg into corrupted noble savages to try to and pull an Orcs with them.
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Nov 16, 2023 21:53
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Yes it's the above, that and the god awful supporting characters in the campaign.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:02
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Yeah, Blizzard probably shouldn't've gone all in on CoRrUpTiOn plot lines, but their lead writer really likes them, so... 
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Nov 16, 2023 22:05
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Warmachine posted:I don't see how it reconned anything though. I don't remember the zerg getting an explicit origin story in either SC1 or BW. I think they might have been hinted at in the Starcraft 64 mission, but ultimately they were just psionic hivemind bugs. It's 100% explicit and detailed in the manual. Both their homeworld and their evolutionary history, including how they changed when the Xel'naga fiddled with them. Nothing of this is as it is in HotS.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:31
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Xarn posted:Yeah, Blizzard probably shouldn't've gone all in on CoRrUpTiOn plot lines, but their lead writer really likes them, so... it's almost as though some darker influence has him under its sway
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Nov 16, 2023 22:59
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habeasdorkus posted:What's interesting to me is that there's very few of those who say that the gameplay is anything less than solid. Which, y'know, is the most important thing about a game. By a significant amount. True, but in a let's play it's less relevant. HotS is just a power fantasy.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:21
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Warmachine posted:
I never thought about it in those words, but I think this is accurate. SC1's dialogue for the most part is played completely straight in those between-mission cutscenes and rare in-mission messages, while SC2 frequently sounds like it was written specifically for movie clip collections. Product of the time, maybe? Wings of Liberty was developed and released smack in the middle of Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One. I was as swept up in the quippiness as anyone else back then. I say SC1's dialogue is played straight 'for the most part' because, well, the Zerg. The Overmind, Eternal Will of the Swarm posted:
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Nov 16, 2023 23:23
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With all the talk of the shift away from space redneck yokels in SC2 I'm kind of surprised that the music hasn't come up as an exception. Because the music is still absolutely a weird mix of scif fi rock and country stuff and it's great
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Nov 17, 2023 00:00
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I honestly don't remember the music from SC2 much, but SC1 does have the edge there. I still like to just listen through the soundtrack for the first one now and then, the terran theme especially just give me an instant chill mood :3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4GbGmvNRc
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Nov 17, 2023 00:20
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Noir89 posted:I honestly don't remember the music from SC2 much, but SC1 does have the edge there. I still like to just listen through the soundtrack for the first one now and then, the terran theme especially just give me an instant chill mood :3 If you like chill, the sc2 terran music is very chill. There's a bunch of solo melodies that just kind of gently twang along. 12:30 in particular does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH3PXvVEwjM
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Nov 17, 2023 02:00
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SC2's Zerg music is pretty great too, at least the skirmish/multiplayer stuff. Honestly can't remember of the incidental music from the campaign. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q1PXulSpWA
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Nov 17, 2023 04:23
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I've always been torn on the SC2 music, on the one hand in general I've never been a fan of "taking old game music but we used real instruments this time" as I don't think it really works, but drat I appreciate a good fiddle
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Nov 17, 2023 04:45
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All of the Terran themes for SC2 are loving excellent.
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Nov 17, 2023 05:59
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Warmachine posted:I think the observation from this is that SC1 was serious, while SC2 is trying to be cool. Like someone who was just naturally charismatic and cool suddenly being made aware of this, and now they are trying to be cool and their actions take all the charm out of it. SC1 is very matter-of-fact in its dialogue and it comes across as natural, while SC2 comes across as artificial because everyone is overacting like they're in a Marvel movie. Which is probably provoking the negative response in the nostalgia-soaked neurons that don't remember this clearly but recall the vibes. You've put something I have been trying to pin down for a few pages rather nicely here. My time making other creative works has taught me that incidental detail matters, and in fact it often matters more than the "real" writing & plot. There are a lot of goons in this thread who can't really remember the specifics of the plots of these games or need to look stuff up, but the feeling created by the incidental dialogue, unrelated cutscenes, voice work, and art direction all stick around.
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Nov 17, 2023 09:21
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FoolyCharged posted:If you like chill, the sc2 terran music is very chill. There's a bunch of solo melodies that just kind of gently twang along. 12:30 in particular does it. Se thats the thing, I have played all the SC2 games and a ton of multiplayer but I can't remember a single track. To be fair I can't remember that many tracks from sc1 either but the Terran and Zerg theme 1 tracks I can, even after all these years .
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Nov 17, 2023 10:28
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Warmachine posted:I think the observation from this is that SC1 was serious, while SC2 is trying to be cool. Like someone who was just naturally charismatic and cool suddenly being made aware of this, and now they are trying to be cool and their actions take all the charm out of it. SC1 is very matter-of-fact in its dialogue and it comes across as natural, while SC2 comes across as artificial because everyone is overacting like they're in a Marvel movie. Which is probably provoking the negative response in the nostalgia-soaked neurons that don't remember this clearly but recall the vibes. SC1 is a seriously told story with the occasional funny moments for the sake of humanization. SC2 is a story that's trying to be awesome, and hits those notes sometimes, but that's often because it's simply trying so hard that it occasionally sticks the landing at random.
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Nov 17, 2023 10:43
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habeasdorkus posted:What's interesting to me is that there's very few of those who say that the gameplay is anything less than solid. Which, y'know, is the most important thing about a game. By a significant amount. I actually think this might be part of the reason why the game gets dogpiled - I consider SC2 to have the best campaign of any RTS, bar none, and that's not an unpopular opinion. Which means that for a lot of people, it's not something to play once, but something to play over and over again. I don't know if I can speak for other people, but for myself, at least, a lot of the issues with SC2 are things that were kinda nitpicks the first time through but that rankle more and more with each playthrough. I mean some of it was hugely grating even at first, you know, like there was never a point where I didn't hate the story told by the Prophecy missions. I'm also in the camp where, outside of the Prophecy missions, I think the story and writing in WoL are fine. You know, not amazing, but fine. It's the expansions that I think are the source of a lot of people's ire. Also, I wonder if maybe the word we're looking for to describe SC1 is "pulp-y."
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