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Postorder Trollet89 posted:People seem to forget they're Jihadists. This is incorrect and I'm not sure why you'd show up this late in the game to post this. Israel is now claiming Hamas is HQ is in the largest city in southern Gaza which isn't surprising they'd lie about this too after the "humanitarian evacuation" but still insanity inducing they'd still keep up the lies to justify what they're doing. https://x.com/jasonhickel/status/1725508407698858003?s=20 Also the IDF is forcing doctors out of a hospital in the West Bank. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 14:50
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HootTheOwl posted:No. This is the lesson that America failed to learn for a very long time until we eventually just gave up. It's essentially impossible to kill a group like Hamas, or any terrorist group, unless you wipe out whole populations, which conveniently is what Israel is doing. The phrase (paraphrased) "bomb one terrorist and make two" is thrown around a lot but it makes sense if you think about it for two seconds. The US celebrated the death of Osama Bin Laden but to a kid out there they just shot his dad. You can limit their influence in government, you can reduce their capability to fight, you can kill so many people in reprisals that they can be afraid to act out of concern for their own people, but the idea that you can "beat the bad guys" is a childish view where the good guys win the day because God says so. You can only actually win by making your opponent not want to fight, by improving their situation and making concessions. And yeah, if you want to actually save lives then sometimes that means they kill your people and you give them what they want. VVV I didn't say that they were. I said that the concept of a population of "bad guys" is insane. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 15:19
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You actually can beat the bad guys. It's not childish at all. It's just that the Palestinian resistance to colonialism and occupation aren't the bad guys. Israel can't win by giving concessions, because Israel requires the colonisation and occupation of Palestine to exist. The only solution is a single Palestinian state with protections and equality for all along with a thorough-going de-Zionistification program to re-educate former Israelis into letting go of their supremacist and genocidal ambitions.
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Nov 17, 2023 15:32
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This is genocide https://x.com/Shepherds4Good/status/1725281692053553158?s=20
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Nov 17, 2023 16:09
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CuddleCryptid posted:It's essentially impossible to kill a group like Hamas, or any terrorist group, unless you wipe out whole populations, which conveniently is what Israel is doing. I'm not picking on you Cuddle, this was just a useful segue to a question I wanted to ask. In the current political environment of the world that we find ourselves in at the moment, what act of resistance by an oppressed people would not be called terrorism?
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Nov 17, 2023 16:09
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The only solution is a single Palestinian state with protections and equality for all What makes it a Palestinian state? The idea of a "Palestinian state with protections and equality for all" is as doomed and crazy as a "Jewish state with protections and equality for all." When a state is officially oriented toward a particular ethnic identity, the price of that is that "equality for all" is impossible and the "protection" part is precarious at best. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 16:09
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Stringent posted:I'm not picking on you Cuddle, this was just a useful segue to a question I wanted to ask. In the current political environment of the world that we find ourselves in at the moment, what act of resistance by an oppressed people would not be called terrorism? None, and that's the point. To the people who are the oppressors, finding peace is always going to be "giving concessions to terrorists". It's also not a useful term in general, because it's something that is only applied to smaller groups. Israel, by bombing civilians "until Hamas gives up", is also being terrorists. They just don't count because they are a recognized state. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 16:12
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Stringent posted:I'm not picking on you Cuddle, this was just a useful segue to a question I wanted to ask. In the current political environment of the world that we find ourselves in at the moment, what act of resistance by an oppressed people would not be called terrorism? IMO, the broad-brushed answer would be acts that don't involve attacking/murdering random civilians. Granted, that answer is much different than how governments might define it for revenge reasons.
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Nov 17, 2023 16:13
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Kalit posted:IMO, the broad-brushed answer would be acts that don't involve attacking/murdering random civilians. Granted, that answer is much different than how governments might define it for revenge reasons. Just a reminder that there are or were hundreds of people in Gaza that only have one leg because they peacefully marched in 2018. It was called terrorism then too.
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Nov 17, 2023 16:20
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Civilized Fishbot posted:What makes it a Palestinian state? It might help to understand that the region they live in is called Palestine. The reason you can't have Israel with equal rights for everyone who lives there, is that if you remove the ethnic cleansing and allows Palestinians the right of return then the Jewish population of Israel becomes a minority. And so in an equal state, it would not be Israel, just Palestine or whatever other name that's decided upon. By the actual majority of people who live in the area.
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Nov 17, 2023 16:22
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Stringent posted:Just a reminder that there are or were hundreds of people in Gaza that only have one leg because they peacefully marched in 2018. It was called terrorism then too. That's why I led my definition with Kalit posted:IMO And why are you trying to "remind" me when I explicitly stated Kalit posted:that answer is much different than how governments might define it for revenge reasons
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Nov 17, 2023 16:25
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Stringent posted:I'm not picking on you Cuddle, this was just a useful segue to a question I wanted to ask. In the current political environment of the world that we find ourselves in at the moment, what act of resistance by an oppressed people would not be called terrorism? It's strange to focus on what would be "called terrorism" and not what is/isn't terrorism. The March of Return, BDS,.and attacks on Israeli military targets all obviously aren't terrorism, even if cynics, bigots, and idiots say otherwise. Strapping on a GoPro and killing loads of civilians obviously is terrorism, because it functions only to humiliate and terrify the target while satisfying the terrorist's need to display strength and mercilessness. And of course this helps us understand what the Israeli state Is doing - recovering from the political.damage dealt by terrorism by itself enacting terrorism across Gaza and the West Bank. Terrorism is a useful idea, it identifies a particular style of military/militia operation, it shouldn't be dismissed just because stupid people use it to mean "anything that disgusts me if it's done by someone from the global south." Zeron posted:It might help to understand that the region they live in is called Palestine. The reason you can't have Israel with equal rights for everyone who lives there, is that if you remove the ethnic cleansing and allows Palestinians the right of return then the Jewish population of Israel becomes a minority. And so in an equal state, it would not be Israel, just Palestine or whatever other name that's decided upon. By the actual majority of people who live in the area. If you meant "Palestinian state" as in "the state exists in Palestine," without reference to the actual Palestinian people, that makes sense. It's a little useless but it's logically sound. In this sense Israel is already a Palestinian state because it's in Palestine. And if Mandatory Palestine was a state, in this sense it was a Palestinian state. So, not that helpful, but not incorrect. I don't really share your concern with the name of the state, I think that's subordinate to questions about how you maintain civil rights and decent public services when you're trying to integrate two nations that loathe and fear each other into one state. The extent and villainy of violence here is well beyond anything that ever happened in Ireland or South Africa. I don't know that any Truth and Reconciliation Commission can give Palestinians satisfaction that their lives aren't in danger when they share a military with IDF veterans, share a police force with West Bank settlers, share a legislature with voters who elected Netanyahu over and over again. At this point I think it has to be two separate states with,.at best, a long-term inclination toward unification. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 16:27
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Any real equal-partners one-state merger of Palestine and Israel would likely require an international presence for some amount of time, if only to ensure that neither side renegs on their side of the agreement until both populations have successfully integrated. Also the intense amount of legislation that would need to be chewed through to combine the, effectively, three states' laws together. Some basic UN laws in place until all that is hammered out and rolled in. A multi-state federal solution is a lot more feasible, though that would still require significant reforms to smooth out any issues with freedom of movement. As for terrorism, I think it has value if you very strictly limit it to "Militant actions that target civilians primarily to influence public opinion through negative pressure". Think that's descriptive enough to exclude propaganda maneuvers like airdropping chocolate over a country, while also excluding irregular armies targeting cops and military officers. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 16:41
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Stringent posted:I'm not picking on you Cuddle, this was just a useful segue to a question I wanted to ask. In the current political environment of the world that we find ourselves in at the moment, what act of resistance by an oppressed people would not be called terrorism? No there isn't, the way most people talk about terrorism is in the language of the oppressors. It's easy to talk tough about how your opponent is cowardly for attacking soft targets when you have tanks and bombers while they are stuck with small arms and improvised munitions. Just like it's easy to call someone a criminal when you make the laws.
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Nov 17, 2023 16:56
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https://twitter.com/ShonaMurray_/status/1725460753748992229 I think everyone saw this coming.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:06
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Gaza residents are tweeting that the IDF has taken up an U.N. school, snipers are murdering any civilians that they can get away with. Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/ShonaMurray_/status/1725460753748992229 Yep the command center is going to always change locations non-stop. Eventually it'll somehow by some weird twist end up in Lebanon.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:13
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Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/ShonaMurray_/status/1725460753748992229 "We have always been at war with Eurasia, we have always been allied with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia, we have always beennallied with Eurasia." So are they going to "advise" the innocent civilians to flee to the north, or just continue to squeeze them into the passage to Egypt?
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Nov 17, 2023 17:22
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Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/ShonaMurray_/status/1725460753748992229 oh so it's right in the center of where they told the civilians to flee to? thats wild.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:23
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So it really seems that the endgame of this operation is to cleanse Gaza into Egypt/wherever, while besieging the West Bank, splitting it into one or two new Gaza-style ghettos, and prepare to purge those too when the next oportunity/excuse presents itself. In Brazil-related news, the repatriated palestinian people are now undergoing a severe media blitz of being accused of being Hamas members/sympathizers, mostly started by Bolsonaro chuds, but with some surprisingly help by the national legacy media. And one of the people the Israel government accused of being a Hezbollah member planning a terror operation in the country was an established pagode (a funkier version of samba) musician who was planning a tour of Lebanon.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:25
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Neurolimal posted:Any real equal-partners one-state merger of Palestine and Israel would likely require an international presence for some amount of time, if only to ensure that neither side renegs on their side of the agreement until both populations have successfully integrated. "some amount of time" is probably gonna be multiple generations
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Nov 17, 2023 17:31
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Typo posted:"some amount of time" is probably gonna be multiple generations And permanent internationally-mediated ownership of Jerusalem, likely as a UN-controlled DMZ.
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Nov 17, 2023 17:38
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https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1725526996338258320
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Nov 17, 2023 18:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:What makes it a Palestinian state? Ridiculous. The Palestinian people are the indigenous owners of the land. It can be a Palestinian state that recognises only the real claim of Palestinian indigineity while still allowing for equality of all. Your post is essentially saying 'anti-white racism' is real.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:03
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's strange to focus on what would be "called terrorism" and not what is/isn't terrorism. What do you mean by "helpful" here? What does that accurate definition not "help"? It seems to make perfect sense in the context of the original sentence you were quibbling with. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The only solution is a single Palestinian state with protections and equality for all. As WW is saying, there is not currently a single Palestinian state, the most powerful state in the region of Palestine does not have protections and equality for all, and both of these things should change. What's confusing about this?
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Nov 17, 2023 18:04
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Groovelord Neato posted:This is incorrect and I'm not sure why you'd show up this late in the game to post this. I know poo poo moves fast, but please don't link to a Jackson hinkle tweet as though it has any basis in fact. The man is a conssumate Nazi grifter who doesn't give a poo poo about Palestinians.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:04
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Caros posted:I know poo poo moves fast, but please don't link to a Jackson hinkle tweet as though it has any basis in fact. The man is a conssumate Nazi grifter who doesn't give a poo poo about Palestinians. That is not Jackson Hinkle.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:06
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Caros posted:I know poo poo moves fast, but please don't link to a Jackson hinkle tweet as though it has any basis in fact. The man is a conssumate Nazi grifter who doesn't give a poo poo about Palestinians. His source is AJ coverage, and honestly, just link AJ directly. Literally no reason to give Hinkle any sort of attention. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/17/israel-hamas-war-live-thousands-in-danger-of-death-amid-hospital-siege?update=2494341 E: Groovelord Neato posted:That is not Jackson Hinkle. Lol. But still, instead of posting tweets, linking to the primary source is a better way to go.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:13
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I said come in! posted:I was very curious about Israel's propaganda of continually saying that Hamas is ISIS, and upon looking into it not at all very deeply, came across a news article stating that Hamas and ISIS were at war with each other lol https://www.npr.org/2018/01/15/578172703/what-effect-isis-declaration-of-war-against-hamas-could-have-in-the-middle-east None of the major Islamist terror organizations could ever gain a foothold in the Palestinian territories. Al Quaeda couldn't, and neither could ISIS. Contrary to the belief of right wing morons Islamist terror groups are not a monolith and often fight among each other. Like when Hezbollah was fighting ISIS in Syria. Or the Taliban fighting ISIS in Afghanistan.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:14
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I said come in! posted:Gaza residents are tweeting that the IDF has taken up an U.N. school, snipers are murdering any civilians that they can get away with. How large is the Hamas presence in Lebanon, or is mostly ran by Hezbollah? Also, what happens if Israel can't find their command center in Gaza?
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Nov 17, 2023 18:26
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Groovelord Neato posted:That is not Jackson Hinkle. ... This is fair. I am tired and didn't have my glassed. My b.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:26
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Ridiculous. The Palestinian people are the indigenous owners of the land. It can be a Palestinian state that recognises only the real claim of Palestinian indigineity while still allowing for equality of all. Your post is essentially saying 'anti-white racism' is real. My post didn't say anything like that. The question of whether "anti-White racism is real" is an American political question with basically no application here. I guess if we transplant it to Israel the question becomes "is anti-Jewish racism real" and I think the answer is yes, it's very real, and it's being exacerbated by the monstrous violence and heinous propaganda of the Israeli state. But it's not very relevant to what's going on right now - Palestinians don't hate Israel because they're racist, they hate Israel because Israel is killing them. Functionally, how does a state "recognize only the real claim of Palestinian indigeneity while still allowing for equality of all"? If a state prioritizes one national or cultural identity as the one that really belongs and rightfully owns the land, and explicitly identifies the rest as foreign guests, then I don't see how it achieves "equality of all." If you actually build a government on the basis of "this ethnicity are the owners of the land" then I don't see how that's not an ethnostate - it certainly is with "the Jewish people are the owners of the land." The question of which culture is indigenous to the land, or rightfully owns it, strikes me as deeply reactionary, because it takes these Identity labels, which are historical artifacts of ideology, as if they were entities with rights and responsibilities that have to be respected. That they even get property rights! That always struck me as one of the most insane parts of Zionism. If the idea is just "Palestinians get right of return and Jews can't make aaliyah" then that's obviously no crisis, I'd prefer open borders but whatever stops the murder is a miracle. Is that all that's required by the idea that the Palestinians own the land and everyone else is just a tenant? Muscle Tracer posted:What do you mean by "helpful" here? What does that accurate definition not "help"? It seems to make perfect sense in the context of the original sentence you were quibbling with. To say "the only solution is a single Palestinian state" - if "Palestinian" here just means "located in Palestine" then yeah, obviously any state that emerges from this horrible crisis will be Palestinian. If "Palestinian state" just means "a state located in Palestine" then there is currently a single Palestinian state, it's the apartheid state of Israel. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 18:33
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Willo567 posted:Also, what happens if Israel can't find their command center in Gaza? Hamas almost certainly does not have a commander center or a headquarters and the IDF is falling for the same thing the Pentagon did in Vietnam with the mythical COSVN.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:34
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Groovelord Neato posted:Hamas almost certainly does not have a commander center or a headquarters and the IDF is falling for the same thing the Pentagon did in Vietnam with the mythical COSVN. I am pretty sure the more likely answer is that they are claiming a headquarters is somewhere they want to push people out of, not that they are actually hunting for the Real HQ.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:40
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ImpAtom posted:I am pretty sure the more likely answer is that they are claiming a headquarters is somewhere they want to push people out of, not that they are actually hunting for the Real HQ. Now it is yeah but I think they thought they had something with al-Shifa because of how long and how ridiculously they talked it up. Obviously they were never going to find a "subterranean city of terror" but I think they expected more than a couple of rifles and CD-Rs. Their evidence planting wasn't even good as if they expected there to be more.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:46
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Charliegrs posted:None of the major Islamist terror organizations could ever gain a foothold in the Palestinian territories. Al Quaeda couldn't, and neither could ISIS. Contrary to the belief of right wing morons Islamist terror groups are not a monolith and often fight among each other. Like when Hezbollah was fighting ISIS in Syria. Or the Taliban fighting ISIS in Afghanistan. the internationalist ones couldn't anyway hamas/Islamic Jihad are somewhat unique among Islamist militants for being nationalists as well: as in they want the establishment of a nation-state as an end goal, not a Caliphate spanning the Muslim world like what ISIS wanted
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Nov 17, 2023 18:47
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Typo posted:the internationalist ones couldn't anyway How much analogy can be drawn between Socialism in One Country v. Permanent Revolution and Sharia-ism in One Country v. Permanent Jihad?
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Nov 17, 2023 18:50
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Civilized Fishbot posted:My post didn't say anything like that. The question of whether "anti-White racism is real" is an American political question with basically no application here. I guess if we transplant it to Israel the question becomes "is anti-Jewish racism real" and I think the answer is yes, it's very real, and it's being exacerbated by the monstrous violence and heinous propaganda of the Israeli state. But it's not very relevant to what's going on right now - Palestinians don't hate Israel because they're racist, they hate Israel because Israel is killing them. Imagine thinking Whiteness only exists in America. loving hell. Israelis are colonisers and thoroughly ingrained in upholding the Global White Supremacist system. Taking their status away as colonial overlords and stripping away their ideology and false claims to indigeneity is not ethno-nationalism, nor anti-Jewish racism. Creating a state in which zionism continues intact will just mean more Palestinian workers to exploit and degrade. It's not justice and will never lead to peace.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:51
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Civilized Fishbot posted:How much analogy can be drawn between Socialism in One Country v. Permanent Revolution and Sharia-ism in One Country v. Permanent Jihad? That analogy is pretty obvious imo, one of the reasons why ISIS and the Taliban are fighting each other is because the Taliban just want to rule an Islamist Afghanistan, whereas ISIS wants to erase all all national borders between Muslim nations as illegitimate lines drawn by non-Muslim powers. but it also does depend on a mistaken understanding of what "socialism in one country" entailed. Stalin and Bukharin were sincere believers in the global worker's revolution, they just also believed that a successful socialist Soviet state served as the best base for said global revolution. The revolution would live or die depending on the material geopolitical success of the USSR. It was never the belief that the Soviets should only be building socialism within its own borders. I don't think hamas cares about spreading the revolution to Kashmir or whatever the way the Soviets did very much care about spreading the revolution to corners of Africa and Latin America. But I digress, this isn't another Soviet Union thread.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:58
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Imagine thinking Whiteness only exists in America. loving hell. Israelis are colonisers and thoroughly ingrained in upholding the Global White Supremacist system. Taking their status away as colonial overlords and stripping away their ideology and false claims to indigeneity is not ethno-nationalism, nor anti-Jewish racism. Creating a state in which zionism continues intact will just mean more Palestinian workers to exploit and degrade. It's not justice and will never lead to peace. I did not say Whiteness only exists in America. Please stop making up dumb poo poo and ascribing it to me. I say enough dumb poo poo that you don't have to make anything up. I.don't know why you're engaging me with hostility, we clearly agree that Israel is an abhorrent apartheid state that needs to be dismantled and replaced with one that isn't Zionist whatsoever, we just don't yet agree about all the policies of that hypothetical state. America invented Whiteness as it exists today - that's why "is anti-White racism real" is an American political question. It has limited application to Israel because Israeli apartheid functions along the lines of Jewish-non-Jewish and them on prioritizing various Jewish backgrounds over others - it's obviously, often transparently, influenced by Whiteness but in many ways orthogonal to it. I haven't said anything about anti-White racism in this thread because it's irrelevant to politics in Israel or Palestine (and everywhere else). I don't understand yo keep bringing it up. I agree we need to create a state without Zionism. I don't see how you have a state that says "Palestinians are the owners of the land but also equality for all." If there's equality between the owners and the non-owners, that doesn't sound like ownership. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 19:01
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Willo567 posted:How large is the Hamas presence in Lebanon, or is mostly ran by Hezbollah? Its all Hezbollah, but Israel badly wants Lebanon to become Israel territory as well. Israel is already trying to fabricate reasons to go to war in Lebanon next.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:03
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