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I'm all for a change that gives Julian Bleach more of his own features to work with to show us how deranged Davros is. The original design is great but it's not gone away or anything, and if this is shifting timelines stuff then cool, let's see what weird poo poo RTD comes up with.
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Nov 18, 2023 09:32
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Senor Tron posted:I've not watched enough of the classic series to realize that Davros was supposed to be disabled/injured. I thought it was more that he had far exceeded how long he should have lived, and was clinging onto existence through bitterness and embracing all the Dalek tech he could without completely giving himself over to it. Essentially this, it’s like the emperors throne in 40K, it’s just a life support system keeping everything going when he should have died centuries ago. I understand the reasons for the change, and it’s nice to see Bleach getting to emote more. That said, it was also Rusty that put John Lumic in a wheelchair in Rise of the Cybermen when he didn’t have to, so this feels like overcompensating to correct that ill.
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Nov 18, 2023 09:45
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RTD posted:Davies added that Children in Need night felt like the perfect opportunity to debut the reimagined Davros. AKA We thought it was important to fight exclusion by making Doctor Who's most prominent disabled character no longer be disabled. lol get hosed
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Nov 18, 2023 09:59
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I genuinely think it's a positive step. So many bad characters going back centuries have been disabled and its a good thing imo that rtd is pushing against that.
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Nov 18, 2023 10:02
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Would be nice to see, e.g. a wheelchair-using companion at some point, or in general have more disabled representation on the show. For all Chibnall's faults and how unevenly it was done, I have dyspraxia, and while it doesn't impact me as much as it did Ryan it has had an impact on my life and it was good to see a character on screen explicitly struggle with it by name.
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Nov 18, 2023 10:06
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lines posted:Would be nice to see, e.g. a wheelchair-using companion at some point, or in general have more disabled representation on the show. For all Chibnall's faults and how unevenly it was done, I have dyspraxia, and while it doesn't impact me as much as it did Ryan it has had an impact on my life and it was good to see a character on screen explicitly struggle with it by name. Seems that’s going to continue under RTD, what with the casting of Ruth Madeley in the specials and Lenny Rush in series 14.
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Nov 18, 2023 10:10
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I have no idea what the best way to handle inclusion is and don't mind the change on that level but I hope some of the distinctive visual elements are retained and that the reason for their absence was due to the limitations of a short comedy special. Could easily do the headgear or the glove. Space Cadet has seen a few of the classic serials but none of the revival so we started from the first Eccleston season recently. Watching with a 7 year old made me appreciate the farting aliens in a way I didn't before.
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Nov 18, 2023 10:26
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lines posted:Would be nice to see, e.g. a wheelchair-using companion at some point, or in general have more disabled representation on the show. For all Chibnall's faults and how unevenly it was done, I have dyspraxia, and while it doesn't impact me as much as it did Ryan it has had an impact on my life and it was good to see a character on screen explicitly struggle with it by name. When he wasn't flawlessly headshotting alien robots because he'd played Call of Duty before that is
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Nov 18, 2023 10:42
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Dabir posted:When he wasn't flawlessly headshotting alien robots because he'd played Call of Duty before that is To be fair I am pretty good at video games but also can't manipulate basic objects in space very well so #accurate, but yes, that's that Chibnall writing magic.
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Nov 18, 2023 11:29
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People making a lot of good points and discussing some key ideas on this page. Good to see, imagine being the kind of person who was instead obsessing over whatever single brief frames they could see through the open TARDIS door trying to get a sense of whether they already changed up the console room from the awful one used during the Whittaker era? That would be pretty lame.
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Nov 18, 2023 11:51
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I think it's still the Wittaker interior (he said he was Jodie an hour ago) I doubt we'll see the interior in the 60th specials
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Nov 18, 2023 12:30
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It's absolutely the Jodie interior.
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Nov 18, 2023 12:41
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At the very least, not having the single disabled character in the Children in Need special be the villain of the piece is certainly a good choice, regardless of how he's going to be portrayed in the future. EDIT: Post is not edit...
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Nov 18, 2023 12:42
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That was a fun skit. Murray Gold is BACK and LOUDER THAN EVER.
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Nov 18, 2023 12:44
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:It's absolutely the Jodie interior. That makes sense. 
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Nov 18, 2023 12:55
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It’ll probably change in the Star Beast.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:01
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There's a new interior for the 60th and a new interior for the Christmas Special. They are mixing up the console room more often now that it's a Volume enhanced set.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:27
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7 more days to go!
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Nov 18, 2023 13:32
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Oh word, they’re using Volume for the Tardis? I hadn’t heard that. That’s a really smart choice, hope they get real wild with it.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:37
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If they wanted to be clever, they could use a small Volume on the inside back of the TARDIS prop, to have an image of the console room moving around in reaction to the camera.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:40
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Volume being...
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Nov 18, 2023 13:41
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Really high resolution screens "extending" physical sets with CGI. It's how they filmed The Mandalorian and Our Flag Means Death.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:42
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Sorry, the Volume is a giant hi def video screen they put backgrounds on, and it reacts to camera movement in real time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUnxzVOs3rk
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Nov 18, 2023 13:45
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Big miscommunication, when they say Volume they just mean that now Murray Gold is back the sound mixing is going to go to poo poo again.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:54
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I got to check out a demo unit of it a few years ago, it’s seriously cool stuff. It marries the best aspects of VFX with the traditions of matte paintings/forced perspective miniatures.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:55
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It's a fancy green screen, if you want to be really reductive. It can let you do a bunch of stuff that cuts down on post-production (though it adds a ton of pre-production, as you need to have CG environments ready to go on set), and it'll light the set too, so you don't have to worry about matching the lighting to the CG environment. Since it's a bunch of screens it'll just throw light at the actors. Look at about 40 seconds in the above video for a good example.
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Nov 18, 2023 13:56
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It’s better for the actors as they can actually see what environment they’re supposed to be in, rather than just green curtains.
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Nov 18, 2023 14:23
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Veotax posted:It's a fancy green screen, if you want to be really reductive. The biggest criticism I have of it after seeing its use in Star Wars stuff is that a whole lot of scenes start being set in round rooms about 25 feet across... which is not an issue if it's going to be used for the TARDIS interior. Open Source Idiom posted:Here's another frustration I have with it: instead of acknowledging that Davros should have gone to a wheelchair user (or, let's be fair here, a vision impaired actor) we're now facing a situation where Davros will continue to be played by an non-disabled actor. That's a good point about limiting the potential roles of disabled actors, but the solution to that, I think, is just to cast more of them (I do not think DW will do this) so that your sole disabled actor isn't playing a bad guy whose inhumanity is visually represented by his disability. It's not so much about Davros (and Lumic, good example) being bad guys who are in sort-of-wheelchairs, it's that their disability is being used as a way to dehumanize them and make them into people who could create monsters like the Daleks or Cybermen. (I was about to type "it would be different if Davros was Black instead of disabled...", but making your Nazi race scientist a Black character is its own can of worms, so let's use Lumic instead.) If you cast, say, 2006 walking about Idris Elba as Lumic instead of the Harry Potter guy, you've got a bad guy played by a Black actor whose race is unconnected to their badness.
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Nov 18, 2023 14:25
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Rochallor posted:The biggest criticism I have of it after seeing its use in Star Wars stuff is that a whole lot of scenes start being set in round rooms about 25 feet across... which is not an issue if it's going to be used for the TARDIS interior. It also doesn't handle some lighting conditions well or allow for larger scale scenes but again that's not a problem for the Tardis interior.
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Nov 18, 2023 15:22
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Part of the longevity of Doctor Who is due to the ability to recast lead actors and have your enemies and monsters buried under prosthetics and costumes, and I feel like abandoning that to hang it on one dude seems kinda short sighted. Also I never perceived Davros as disabled and more from a design aesthetic was becoming consumed by his creation. e: Or being ancient and decrepit and unnaturally extending his life through science. Szmitten fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 15:23
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Its limitations can become very apparent and distracting if it’s over-used (Mandalorian is very guilty of this), but it’s a really great tool when used thoughtfully - the recent The Batman movie used it to great effect. Tardis interior (to augment more traditional construction/sets) is a perfect use-case for it.
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Nov 18, 2023 15:28
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Open Source Idiom posted:Speaking as someone with a disability I hate this idea that disabled people can't be villains (or "evil", in Davies' words). That sucks. I get that there's a bigotry inherent to the character -- alterations to human body = scary stories for reactionaries -- but I think the character transcends anything that simplistic by virtue of being the focus of several nuanced and interesting takes over the years. I think meaningful progress is about writing towards nuance and complexity, rather than restricting characters to decorous and contemporary "taste" (again, Davies' words). This thought did occur to me, but I didn't feel I could articulate it properly without sounding like an idiot (or moreso than usual, anyways  ). There's a very subtle distinction between "character that's a villain who just happens to be disabled" and "character that's a villain because they are disabled". If RTD felt that distinction might be too subtle for the average TV viewer to grasp (and let's be honest, it probably is), I can understand why he might feel reluctant to have one of the series' major villains be a character that is perceived as being villainous because of their disability. How to fix that while addressing the very good points you raise is something I don't have the answers for, unfortunately, but I definitely can see where you're coming from.
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Nov 18, 2023 15:33
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Big Finish did a great job establishing that Davros was evil and immoral long before the assassination attempt that put him in his life support chariot. Also, if Davies was going to go with a pre-Genesis Davros, he should have said "eff it" and brought in Terry Molloy. (while it's never explicitly stated, and the general consensus is that it was a Thal shelling that destroyed the Kaled Science Facility where Davros was at the time ... Davros actor Terry Molloy believes that it was the high ranking members of Kaled government who felt threatened by Davros' ambitions that secretly ordered the attack)
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Nov 18, 2023 15:49
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Show Davros in two distinct timeframes. This one for pre-bombing is fine. For post-bombing, go with the head in a tube version from Revelation of the Daleks, becaise that takes it out of the realm of any disability anyone is likely to have any time soon. There's many ways in which Revelation wastes its potential, and one of them is the way the head-in-a-tube Davros is a fakeout, just have him be like that now.
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Nov 18, 2023 15:58
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Davros1 posted:Big Finish did a great job establishing that Davros was evil and immoral long before the assassination attempt that put him in his life support chariot. Unless RTD was planning to adapt that storyline to TV, it basically doesn't exist as far as your average TV viewer is concerned (or your average modern DW fan, if we're being perfectly honest). Warthur posted:Show Davros in two distinct timeframes. This one for pre-bombing is fine. For post-bombing, go with the head in a tube version from Revelation of the Daleks, becaise that takes it out of the realm of any disability anyone is likely to have any time soon. Except that they already had Davros be the Emperor Dalek in Remembrance, so that just takes it back to "he's in a wheelchair" territory again. Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 15:59
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Unless RTD was planning to adapt that storyline to TV, it basically doesn't exist as far as your average TV viewer is concerned (or your average modern DW fan, if we're being perfectly honest). I always that Remembrance was basically just Davros as a head in a Dalek casing; the Doctor even says something along the lines of "You've shrugged off the last of your human remains."
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Nov 18, 2023 16:06
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Is the davros series that big finish did a while ago worth checking out? I think it takes place before he become the davros in genesis.
Confusedslight fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 16:11
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I, for one, definitely enjoy making The Dalek Timeline more difficult and bizarre to try and pin down.
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Nov 18, 2023 16:18
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Open Source Idiom posted:Speaking as someone with a disability I hate this idea that disabled people can't be villains (or "evil", in Davies' words). That sucks. I get that there's a bigotry inherent to the character -- alterations to human body = scary stories for reactionaries -- but I think the character transcends anything that simplistic by virtue of being the focus of several nuanced and interesting takes over the years. I think meaningful progress is about writing towards nuance and complexity, rather than restricting characters to decorous and contemporary "taste" (again, Davies' words). How many disabled performers have played disabled villains previously in Doctor Who? Is it zero? Everyone is also missing the “disfigured” portion of RTD’s statement. Only representing disfigured human beings as evil is a really big deal and any move away from that is welcome. Davros may implicitly be disfigured because he is evil, but I don’t think that’s much of a help if the question is how we portray a range of possible characterizations versus “all disfigured characters are bad.” The other big question: what did the thread think of Bleach’s performance without the make-up and the chair? Out of curiosity, I went through Three and Four’s stories asking whether the villains were disabled or disfigured people. (Human or human-like only, so Broton and the Zygons don’t count, for example.) Three Inferno: mutation equals disfiguration. Evil Brig is missing an eye. Colony in Space is ambiguous as it gives us disfigured aliens. Day of the Daleks and Frontier in Space I’m dinging for the Ogrons, which is basically equating ugly humanoid features with stupidity. The Curse of Peladon arguably gives us Arcturus as a disabled villain. The Mutants does an explicit “ugly is violent and beauty is a higher-order of being” trope. I have no idea how to score Omega in The Three Doctors but he certainly has a unique problem with his body. The Green Death invites us to consider the madness/villainous linkage in Doctor Who, but I’m going to skip listing all the mad scientists and mental illness is a separate question. I don’t recall Invasion of the Dinosaurs’ villains well enough to include or exclude it. Four The Ark in Space: man turning into monster is disfigured (I know this is complex, but Noah in transition is a villain). Genesis of the Daleks isn’t just Davros, but some of the “mutos” as well, though we do get a positive depiction of at least one. Planet of Evil: mad scientist turns into deformed monster. The Android Invasion gives us a not-really-disfigured lackey. The Brain of Morbius maybe gets a pass for Morbius, but not for Condo. The Seeds of Doom is another body horror transformation story. The Deadly Assassin (and Keeper of Traken) give us a disfigured Master. Talons gets both yellowface and a disfigured villain. I’m dinging The Invisible Enemy for a disfiguration indicating Swarm infection. The Sun Makers has a villain in a wheelchair. Underworld has disfigured robot-men? Credit to The Ribos Operation for Binro, who is disfigured and a hero. The Pirate Planet has the Captain. I’m unsure whether to list The Shadow from The Armagaddon Factor. Destiny of the Daleks is Davros again. Meglos is borderline. Full Circle is hugely arguable, but I think not nearly as tropey as The Mutants was. Perhaps 19 episodes out of 65? That seems to me like a lot. How many heroic characters in Who have had disabilities or specifically been in wheelchairs?
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Nov 18, 2023 16:26
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Confusedslight posted:Is the davros series that big finish did a whe ago worth checking out? I think it takes place before he become the davros in genesis. It's very good, though you probably want to check out Davros (the play) as well since there's a lot of interconnectivity.
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Nov 18, 2023 16:28
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