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Lockback posted:Yeah, its not unusual to bring in a manager and just say "This person will be spending some time getting to know the platform and will have no direct reports for a while", but they have the title because thats what they were hired to do. It could be that, but the simpler and more likely explanation would be that it's exactly what it looks like: a textbook bait-and-switch. I would guess they already knew before they posted it who was getting the managerial role and now they're just using the applicant pool to try to fill an IC position (either the position vacated by someone internal they're promoting, or someone resigned recently and they're just going through the managerial applicant pool instead of posting the IC position). People who work there know what the deal is, but if you don't know anyone on the inside you can't tell. It doesn't matter, of course. The important thing is to understand it's a giant red flag where the only explanations are incompetence or dishonesty.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:41
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Eric the Mauve posted:It doesn't matter, of course. The important thing is to understand it's a giant red flag where the only explanations are incompetence or dishonesty. This. If they advertised $220k and your offer came in with $165k, then you'd tell them exactly where to shove it. Do the same with the title bait and switch. Does it actually matter? No... unless they won't give you the title that you applied for, because it matters to them. In which case they're showing you a whole bunch of the internal organizational rationalizations for doing fucky things. There's room to have a conversation of "I'll accept an offer for the job I applied for." but there's no room to play their little gently caress around game, because you're the one who's gonna end up finding out.
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Nov 10, 2023 16:48
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Lockback posted:Yeah, its not unusual to bring in a manager and just say "This person will be spending some time getting to know the platform and will have no direct reports for a while", but they have the title because thats what they were hired to do. Yeah this is what I was expecting and it's whatever. Lockback posted:I wonder if this is some "We all had to be Developers first, this new guy (with existing management experience) has to do that too" which is also Not Good from a culture perspective. This is silly.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:06
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leper khan posted:Yeah this is what I was expecting and it's whatever. They came up not at all on salary and tried to spin some story about not having management titles in the org despite having management titles in job req's 
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Nov 14, 2023 17:51
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leper khan posted:They came up not at all on salary and tried to spin some story about not having management titles in the org despite having management titles in job req's
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Nov 14, 2023 18:23
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Hi thread, I have a negotiation question and would like some advice for the specifics. I'll have to be a bit vague on names, projects, etc, for obvious reasons. I worked at big company A in the EU up until the end of last month, when me and a number of other employees were (quite suddenly, by our standards) made redundant and paid in lieu of notice. However, I learned that another division of the company had been trying to find space for me, because I had been doing a lot of work for them and they had really appreciated it - unfortunately (for them) they had learned about it too late and couldn't get headcount approved. They reached out last Friday to see if I would be interested in working for them as a contractor - they hope until March, but it might go longer, or it might end up finishing before then. They have N projects in the pipeline, and an important one ongoing they'd like to get finished asap, however, I can't say I expect to be working 40+ hours a week. There's a good chance there'll be downtime. I know roughtly what I was being charged out at per day from my division to theirs in company A (€X). I know my hourly rate and benefits, of course (€Y, much less than X). I don't, however, have an idea of what might be "normal" rates in this area for contracting, if there even are any. I am not currently under any financial strain and have other applications going at the moment, but it would be nice to have continuity of employment until I find one if nothing else. (I also have a recruiter who is asking me to give them a figure for a role before providing me with a spec, which right now I'm avoiding doing but might give them a large figure and see what they say, just to continue discussions with multiple people). How do I negotiate from this position to get the best income possible?
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Nov 15, 2023 11:22
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Cavelcade posted:Hi thread, I have a negotiation question and would like some advice for the specifics. I'll have to be a bit vague on names, projects, etc, for obvious reasons. Ask for $X. Don't settle for less than $Y+additional tax burden + your estimated downtime/overhead.
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Nov 15, 2023 11:57
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Also tell the recruiter to pass you the spec or stop contacting you.
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Nov 15, 2023 14:51
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As a contractor also in the EU I noticed yhat it’s not unlikely for larger companies to negotiate a higher rate on big contracts. That’s usually the case if/when they agree to fill at least x amount of roles per year (and subcontracting on their own dime if necessary). So if your old company got €200 per hour, it’s not uncommon that any individual contracter would not be able to a more than €100-120 per hour. This can of course differ greatly per country. If you worked for a smaller consultancy company I’d definitely ask €X. They already paid it for your services so no reason to stop doing that just because the check goes somewhere else now. They know you’re worth it and hiring and getting someone else up to speed will take time.
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Nov 15, 2023 15:40
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In this case, it was being cross-charged within the same company, but the advice I was getting isn't that far from what you're suggesting. I think I might do X/2 + something to account for the extra expenses + 10%. I don't want to sour things by completely overshooting but that would still be a good payday for me.
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Nov 15, 2023 16:00
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Cavelcade posted:In this case, it was being cross-charged within the same company, but the advice I was getting isn't that far from what you're suggesting. Also, do you know these people sufficiently well and or is the negotiation in writing or in a meeting/over the phone? If the latter, you can get away with a tongue in cheek “just send the $200/hour you used to pay to [old department] direct to me” easier than if you have to write it up. Best case they just do so, otherwise they’re now making the first offer, you counter at that plus twenty percent and you haven’t pegged low at the start.
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Nov 16, 2023 08:40
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Cavelcade posted:I think I might do X/2 + something to account for the extra expenses + 10%. I don't want to sour things by completely overshooting but that would still be a good payday for me. You're pre-negotiating with your imagination and compromising your position. You know that this was a price they were willing to pay. Make them justify paying less than that. Remember that freelance rates price in the uncertainty of freelance positions. You need to make enough to cover your current expenses, your long-term saving goals, and also some amount of expected downtime once this contract ends. They work with contractors more than you do and they should understand this.
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Nov 16, 2023 10:23
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Tricky Ed posted:You're pre-negotiating with your imagination and compromising your position. You know that this was a price they were willing to pay. Make them justify paying less than that. Freelancing is a tough and nerve-wracking way to make a living. All credit to people who find a way to make it work for them.
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Nov 16, 2023 10:30
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Tricky Ed posted:You're pre-negotiating with your imagination and compromising your position. You know that this was a price they were willing to pay. Make them justify paying less than that. I have won the war against myself and asked for €X. Honestly kinda making GBS threads it but we'll see what happens.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:49
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Cavelcade posted:I have won the war against myself and asked for €X. So is it safe to say you’re only making GBS threads yourself?
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Nov 16, 2023 18:31
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What will you say if they say no? What will you say if they say x/2? Figure these questions out now before they respond and you are potentially dealing with some emotions.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:42
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Just got done with an interview for an analytics engineering position, $175k, full remote. We'll see how it goes. Only thing is I currently have five other jobs. I'm FTE @ 3 companies and full-time contract at two others. I'm gonna have to drop something soon, I think. Too many Benny Hill scenarios taking multiple calls at once. Plan is to cut it down to FTW @ 2 companies and have one contract, shoot for around ~$400k/yr cash comp. Kinda rules in an MCOL area
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Nov 20, 2023 18:22
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Euronymous posted:Just got done with an interview for an analytics engineering position, $175k, full remote. We'll see how it goes. I'm now more convinced that RTO is a good idea.
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Nov 20, 2023 18:26
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Lockback posted:I'm now more convinced that RTO is a good idea. This is the sort of poo poo that will ruin it for the rest of us
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Nov 20, 2023 18:31
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If your ideal model of the world depends on people not getting while the getting's good, welp
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Nov 20, 2023 18:42
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No idea how you could manage to do that legally while fulfilling requirements in non-competes.
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Nov 20, 2023 18:43
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leper khan posted:No idea how you could manage to do that legally while fulfilling requirements in non-competes. feel like they ain't doing it legally
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Nov 20, 2023 18:47
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People like that are going to end remote and force me to sell my house and move :[
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Nov 20, 2023 19:00
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No they aren't. They'd use any excuse to force you back, if not this guy, they'd blame the lack of "corporate culture".
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Nov 20, 2023 19:05
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Yeah OE isn't going to be the cause. At the end of the day, if you met your performance targets then who cares? If you aren't being measured on that, then that's your company's fault. CEOs and fractional execs do the same poo poo, but it's ok because they are super special and in a class by themselves?
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Nov 20, 2023 19:08
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It’s not ok but yes they think that.
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Nov 21, 2023 01:30
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The problem is in remote management I won't fire someone for having a trouble or a bad couple or months or something, I want to work with them to develop them. But if the reason you're having problems meeting goals is you have multiple jobs then you're wasting everyone's time and shittily taking away an opportunity from someone who could probably use it because you want to move from the top 3% in income to the top 1%.
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Nov 21, 2023 01:52
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If he's got any brains he's also outsourcing most of the work to randos on fiverr or whatever
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Nov 21, 2023 01:53
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Eric the Mauve posted:If he's got any brains he's also outsourcing most of the work to randos on fiverr or whatever employers hate this one weird trick!!
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Nov 21, 2023 02:08
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Lockback posted:The problem is in remote management I won't fire someone for having a trouble or a bad couple or months or something, I want to work with them to develop them. But if the reason you're having problems meeting goals is you have multiple jobs then you're wasting everyone's time and shittily taking away an opportunity from someone who could probably use it because you want to move from the top 3% in income to the top 1%. What if I don’t have problems meeting goals
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Nov 21, 2023 05:48
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Euronymous posted:What if I don’t have problems meeting goals Euronymous posted:I'm gonna have to drop something soon, I think. Too many Benny Hill scenarios taking multiple calls at once. 
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Nov 21, 2023 10:31
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Euronymous posted:What if I don’t have problems meeting goals Well as above shows I know one thing about your work and it's not good. My company has caught a couple OE people and it was after the exact scenario I described where we were trying to help low performers before discovering they had multiple jobs. It's possible there are others who I am not aware of but every time I look at a high performer I see a public LinkedIn profile that is easily identifiable. The contract gigs are less of a concern but I would bet if you disclosed what you were doing to the full time gigs they'd happily show you the door because you weren't as advertised. Maybe you're good enough to not get fired as is but the fact you won't come clean means you know you aren't doing as good of a job as was expected. Either way, you can hand wave that RTO is inevitable (at my company and tons of others it's not) but this is a real risk to it and the more it happens the more ammo is given to topple the experiment.
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Nov 21, 2023 14:35
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True, except if I do this for just a few more months I'll have enough money that it won't matter if the experiment is toppled, so I'm gonna get that bag. Sorry
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Nov 21, 2023 15:33
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Usually I don’t have a problem with anyone loving over the “job makers,” but yeah, this one is actively against the labor’s goals. Combined with that avatar. You do you.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:43
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gbut posted:Usually I don’t have a problem with anyone loving over the “job makers,” but yeah, this one is actively against the labor’s goals. Combined with that avatar. Uh oh, I've entered the targets of the only people left on SA - BFC 6 figures makes and internet communists  See, it's me. I'm the bad one, destroying Hustle Culture(TM) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Euronymous fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 15:47
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You fellow thread regs know this is just some guy who wandered in from cspam to work a gimmick, right
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Nov 21, 2023 15:55
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Euronymous posted:True, except if I do this for just a few more months I'll have enough money that it won't matter if the experiment is toppled, so I'm gonna get that bag. Sorry Excellent class solidarity here. High fives all around. e: Eric the Mauve posted:You fellow thread regs know this is just some guy who wandered in from cspam to work a gimmick, right Good point. I'll stop.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:58
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Class solidarity means maintaining Hustle Culture. If we take all the employer's money, who's gonna give us money??
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Nov 21, 2023 16:02
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In thread-adjacent news, yesterday I had a discussion with my previous manager about a new (internal) opportunity. I told her that making a role change next quarter could be challenging because I was running point on a major project, and she (correctly) told me that there is never a good point to vacate a position, that the department would try to hold me in this role as long as possible, and that I needed to look out for myself first of all. Funny thing is, when she was my manager hardly a year ago she told me the exact opposite when another team was trying to hire me!
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Nov 21, 2023 16:04
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Anonymous Robot posted:In thread-adjacent news, yesterday I had a discussion with my previous manager about a new (internal) opportunity. I told her that making a role change next quarter could be challenging because I was running point on a major project, and she (correctly) told me that there is never a good point to vacate a position, that the department would try to hold me in this role as long as possible, and that I needed to look out for myself first of all. Manager's #1 job is to look after their remit, #2 job is to look after themselves, #3 job is to look after the team. You jumped from 3 to 1 and they're telling you to be mindful about 2 because you weren't able to do that previously.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:45
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