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Even if you do have a "whole home" surge suppressor in your panel its still recommended to use stand alone SP strips for sensitive electronics, the one in the panel will protect your belongings from big surges coming from the supply side like blown transformers but it can't do anything about surges caused from faulty equipment within your home, however rare, or the small surges caused by large power consumers like AC switching off and on.
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Nov 26, 2023 05:03
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You sure? The switching surge generated in house would hit the panel mounted surge suppressor before the rest of the stuff in the house. Unless your panel surge suppressor is stolen 15kv lightning arresters it should soak up at least some of the surge internally or from the utility side, still a good idea to have a non poo poo surge suppressor power strip for electronics as a 2nd line of defense.
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Nov 26, 2023 15:28
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Panel mounted surge protectors are generally not able to sink as much surge current as a high quality plug in one, but they have the tremendous advantage of having only a few inches of wire between it and the neutral bus. That is important because inductance resists large changes in current like you'd get if you try to suddenly send a 5,000A of high frequency current to ground, which makes inductance the enemy when you're trying to sink a voltage spike. All things equal shorter wires have lower inductance. The best solution is a panel mounted surge protector combined with a high quality surge protector on critical sensitive equipment.
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Nov 26, 2023 19:43
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Motronic posted:You needed big, old growth trees to mill 20-40 foot 2x stock that was straight enough to use, and you needed to be able to get them to the site. Even if balloon framing was a good idea, we just don't have the forestry stock to do it anymore. It would have to be done with engineered lumber.
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Nov 26, 2023 20:49
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null_pointer posted:Awesome. Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you! I was similarly stoked to see this exists. However it seems it is a somewhat niche product. Not because remote controlled switches are rare, but they all want you to set up their whole ecosystem or whatever. Also its not stocked locally and they won't ship it to me, this convenience is very inconvenient 
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Nov 27, 2023 16:18
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I want this sconce so bad but there is no way it is actually CE right?
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Nov 29, 2023 01:15
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If you do decide to risk it you could order it from one of the many random-letter Amazon sellers and at least get easier returns if it comes and is poo poo.
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Nov 29, 2023 01:56
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I mean, I have no real way to figure out if it's poo poo, right? I am not a wire toucher. And there is no way I can trust a label that says CE or UL from an aliexpress product like that.
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Nov 29, 2023 03:40
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lamps tear apart pretty easy if you decide you want to become a wire knower and inspect it yourself but there's really not that much that can go wrong with a hardwired LED fixture and most of the safeguards are on your building wiring. As long as it's grounded and your breakers/fuses work properly if anything shorts out it'll just trip the switch. hell rip all the wiring out and replace the guts if the spirit takes you, there's nothing about the lamp body that's going to be inherently dangerous shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 04:01
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Epitope posted:I was similarly stoked to see this exists. However it seems it is a somewhat niche product. Not because remote controlled switches are rare, but they all want you to set up their whole ecosystem or whatever. Also its not stocked locally and they won't ship it to me, this convenience is very inconvenient There's also the Lutron option: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-...WS-WH/314328501 You don't need to use a hub with these if you don't want to.
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Nov 29, 2023 04:41
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:I want this sconce so bad but there is no way it is actually CE right? Shifty Pony posted:If you do decide to risk it you could order it from one of the many random-letter Amazon sellers and at least get easier returns if it comes and is poo poo. That's neat, and I bought it. I'll let you know if my house burns down.
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Nov 29, 2023 05:43
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Qwijib0 posted:That's neat, and I bought it.
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Nov 29, 2023 07:02
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Worth noting - CE Mark doesn't mean any NRTL tested it and it passed and is safe. It means the company certified that it meets EU standards but it is a self certification and if you are suitably bold or suitably un-extraditable to Europe to face trial you can absolutely just stick a CE Mark sticker on your garbage and ship it wherever*. It has no bearing anywhere but the EU, no US inspector gives a crap about it, that's what United States NRTLs such as UL, TÜV, and Intertek have going for them. (TÜV is German, but they're licensed in the United States and drat good at what they do.) The process for UL and other NRTLs is significantly more strict than that for CE Mark. I have certified industrial capital equipment to both and if I had to choose one to try and comply with next week to make a shipment date, I would choose CE in a second, because I can simply self certify that it is substantially the same as the unit we tested 6 years ago and ship it if management signs off on it, it's their signature on the technical construction file and declaration of conformance and it will be them that get arrested if someone dies, so I'll present my case to them and advise them as to whether they should or not and if they insist on pushing it through quickly they can't say I didn't warn them. If you try that kind of cowboy poo poo with a UL monitored assembly line and they catch you during a regular unannounced inspection, there is going to be hell to pay, and if you do that before a UL field evaluation, they might just not sticker your poo poo and oh well I guess you're not shipping this week, better luck next time. * Having seen how half the poo poo I've bought on Alibaba and Amazon and eBay arrives with CE marks, and how much of a clusterfuck it is inside, I have my suspicions on how many products end up being CE marked...
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Nov 29, 2023 08:12
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I bet a lot of those aren't CE marks but the China Export mark which looks basically like the CE mark. Basically something the chinese made to make their products look like they were CE approved despite being nothing of the sort.
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Nov 29, 2023 08:22
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You know, I think you're entirely right, not sure how I forgot about China Export marks. Lot of them probably are exactly that. For anyone who's never heard of it:  Literally the only difference is the kerning  I almost mentioned CCC mark, but that's different, it's required for products being imported into China, not exported out of it.
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Nov 29, 2023 09:16
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not to rehash old ground again butStormDrain posted:https://cemarking.net/chinese-export/
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Nov 29, 2023 10:55
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kecske posted:not to rehash old ground again but Not to rehash old ground, but the link states one thing in the title and goes on to say basically what everyone thinks/close enough. It's a "debunked because it's a catchy title and I already wrote this" piece. Yes, it is known to the EU that a lot of things marked with CE are not in ay way compliant. Lots of those are from China. This happens with all kinds of certifications marks and is not a unique thing. The specific font kerning thing and "china export" is likely much more tongue in cheek and the overwhelming suspicion, which is specifically called out in this very "debunking" article is that it was done that was so manufacturers could pull a "ha ha oh so sorry, that's not really a Conformité Européenne mark, it's something else" which is 100% on brand for China/chinese manufacturing and has been for decades. So......how "debunked" is this really? Does anyone who posts that link critically read the contents of it?
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Nov 29, 2023 15:01
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Motronic posted:So......how "debunked" is this really? Does anyone who posts that link critically read the contents of it? you and I have read it before, but others haven't. So instead of conjuring a wall of text post about it there's a link instead. e: this has come across as belligerent which isn't my intention, I agree that manufacturers deliberately misuse the checkmark. kecske fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 15:49
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At some point Grand-Gary redid the kitchen lighting and moved the over-sink light onto the main circuit. In true Gary fashion the wiring for the over-sink light was simply capped with two wire nuts, wrapped in electrical tape, and abandoned unsecured in the attic still connected to the (powered) wall switch. I want to install LED under cabinet lighting. Would it be acceptable to take the abandoned NM cable and attach it to a LED driver in an enclosure mounted to the ceiling joists? That would let me easily run the LV wiring down through the gaps at the ends of the cabinets and simply swap the switch with a smart dimmer to enable fine control of the lights. Putting an LED driver in the attic feels like something that should be fairly common, but I am having a bit of a hard time finding dimmable 24V LED drivers from reputable companies which are rated for the sort of ambient temperatures encountered in an attic. This is making me wonder if my idea isn't a good one for some reason that I'm missing.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:02
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It's not typically done because even 24VDC isn't great at distances/required wire gauge is cost prohibitive/difficult to work with. You want the driver as close to the beginning of your run as possible. I have slim drivers that I mounted under my cabinets.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:43
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I've got a bench that I made for welding on. Without getting in to a bunch of details, its going to have a 120Vac motor to turn the pieces that I'm going to be welding. The ground clamp for the welder will be attached to a shaft on which the pieces are turning. Should I isolate the motor from this? I was thinking of just making a metal bracket for the motor and welding it, or bolting it to the frame of the bench but maybe thats not going to be good. The motor itself will turn the shaft and work piece via two pulleys and a rubber belt of some sort. Should I mount the motor to some wood, or otherwise isolate it from the rest of the metal structure?
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Nov 29, 2023 18:48
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Motronic posted:It's not typically done because even 24VDC isn't great at distances/required wire gauge is cost prohibitive/difficult to work with. You want the driver as close to the beginning of your run as possible. I have slim drivers that I mounted under my cabinets. Huh, yeah that makes sense. With my intended setup I calculated I would only see about 1% drop using 16 gauge wire (and intended to use 14) and it is at a scale where the lengths would be fairly trivial to equalize, but I totally see not wanting to design a product that would be relatively inflexible and require an excessively high level of attention to detail from installers. I could put drivers underneath my cabinets but then I have the problem of how to get 120V AC to that area in an invisible, safe, and code compliant manner.
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Nov 29, 2023 19:20
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Shifty Pony posted:I could put drivers underneath my cabinets but then I have the problem of how to get 120V AC to that area in an invisible, safe, and code compliant manner. Yeah, that's usually pretty tough when the cabinets are installed. I'd be inclined to build a little enclosure with a fan in it, install it as low as possible in the attic and hope for the best. You could get real dumb and even plumb in an intake hose from a soffit but I'd see how many cheap drivers you go through a year first. The number might be zero.
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Nov 29, 2023 19:43
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Meanwell has several models rated for outdoor use with a rated case temp of 85C. They do have a de-rating curve at higher temps, but you could oversize to deal with that.
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Nov 29, 2023 20:09
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Motronic posted:Not to rehash old ground, but the link states one thing in the title and goes on to say basically what everyone thinks/close enough. It's a "debunked because it's a catchy title and I already wrote this" piece. The image above purports a conspiracy, and the real answer is just regular fraud. The info graphic above is feeding into a sinophobic world view.
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Nov 29, 2023 20:27
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wesleywillis posted:I've got a bench that I made for welding on. Without getting in to a bunch of details, its going to have a 120Vac motor to turn the pieces that I'm going to be welding. As long as no current (not even a small current!) is flowing through the motor's bearings, you will be fine. However, your work bench will now be grounded to mains earth via the motor because the metal motor housing must be grounded. It's up to you to decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing - i don't know if welding work benches are usually somewhat isolated from earth or hard bonded to it.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:00
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StormDrain posted:The image above purports a conspiracy It doesn't. Unless you know absolutely nothing about chinese manufacturing.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:32
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Motronic posted:It doesn't. Unless you know absolutely nothing about chinese manufacturing. Perfect we agree then.
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Nov 29, 2023 22:13
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StormDrain posted:Perfect we agree then. You said the opposite, so no, we do not. And it's baffling that you seem to be trying to defend well known decades long wholesale theft of IP, gross misrepresentation up to and including deadly safety problems and general chabuduo of chinese manufacturing by insulating that someone recognizing how chinese manufacturing as a whole conducts itself, to the point that this is taught in schools for people who need to know how to get thing produced in china, is "a sinophobic world view." It's very much an earned reputation forged over decades. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2023 22:22
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Nov 29, 2023 22:31
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theft of IP is cool and good imo
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Nov 29, 2023 22:32
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LimaBiker posted:As long as no current (not even a small current!) is flowing through the motor's bearings, you will be fine. However, your work bench will now be grounded to mains earth via the motor because the metal motor housing must be grounded. It's up to you to decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing - i don't know if welding work benches are usually somewhat isolated from earth or hard bonded to it. In this case, mine is on small casters so I don't think it'll be grounded. I'm not sure if sitting on the cement floor would be considered "grounded" but I'm not an electricologist. I think what I'll end up doing is building a frame of metal attaching it to the bench and then cutting a piece of plywood to size, screwing it to the frame and then mounting the motor to that. The wood should isolate it from any current flowing through the vent, and the belt turning the pulleys the same. The motor has a post on it for grounding so I'll make sure to attach a wire to that and see to it that its grounded through the power cord.
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Nov 29, 2023 22:53
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LimaBiker posted:As long as no current (not even a small current!) is flowing through the motor's bearings, you will be fine. However, your work bench will now be grounded to mains earth via the motor because the metal motor housing must be grounded. It's up to you to decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing - i don't know if welding work benches are usually somewhat isolated from earth or hard bonded to it. I remember the welders lifting the grounds off the equipment before starting work but never asked why. These were really high current mig welders if it makes any difference.
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Nov 30, 2023 00:19
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I bought some panel mount outlets from aliexpress, one schuko and one NEMA and lol, the NEMA one has CE marks on it. No UL marks I can see though.
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Nov 30, 2023 05:51
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Has anyone successfully done a DIY install of an EVSE (Electrical Vehicle Supply Equipment, potentially referred to as a "charger" though technically speaking that's incorrect)? I'm making potential future plans and want to make sure the info I've found is making sense. I've got a subpanel that's about 2 feet away from where I would most likely install an EVSE (though on the other side of the wall that I'd be mounting to). Right now it's fed by a 30 amp breaker in the main panel, because of the undersized neutral feeding the panel, but I plan to eventually remediate that, most likely be getting a new 100 amp service run directly to the garage (because there's no good way to run a new feed from the main panel to the garage, and the sub panel was installed to accommodate that as it has a 100 amp main breaker). My initial thought was to install a 14-50 receptacle for "flexibility", but it looks like as of the 2020 code, that would require GFCI protection, which is a nearly $200 breaker, and also as far as I can tell EVSEs have GFCI built in and even say they should be connected to a non-GFCI outlet. So there's basically no way to make that work to code, and it ends up being more expensive overall (with the very expensive breaker, plus a high quality receptacle, plus the EVSEs seem to be $50 more when they come with plugs). So next, without having a specific charger in mind, I start looking at how they're wired in generally. I looked at ChargePoint, Enel X, and Legrand, and they all appear to have conduit holes, so generally speaking you'd connect into the device with conduit somehow. If I'm going to the effort, and especially since it's such a short distance, I'd plan on just running two 6 gauge THNN wires plus a 10 gauge ground wire. I'd come out of my panel via conduit, probably 3/4 flexible metal conduit, through the wall and into a 4" steel junction box, and run my wires into there. Then I'd mount the EVSE and connect it to the junction box with some liquidtight conduit (because lol it looks better than FMC and you can get kits that include all the fittings). Since I only have 30 amp service out there currently, I'd put in a 20 amp double pole breaker and limit the charger to 16 Amps. Once I get the full 100 amp service I'd swap out the breaker for 50 or 60 amps (I'm not 100% sure yet if 6 gauge is good enough for 60 amps or not, though it's a very academic distinction because I don't think I'd be using anywhere near enough amperage for it to matter one way or the other). Anyway, does that all make sense? Are there any other gotchas when running wiring for something that's going to pull as many amps as an electric car? Most of what I can find is saying "consult a professional" but I can't tell if that's generic advice that they always give, or if there's some extra X factor here that I'm not aware of. I'm comfortable running conduit, landing breakers, and wiring devices for 15/20 amp 120 V stuff, so it seems like as long as I've got everything sized properly, wiring for an EVSE should be in my comfort zone?
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Nov 30, 2023 20:29
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FISHMANPET posted:Since I only have 30 amp service out there currently, I'd put in a 20 amp double pole breaker and limit the charger to 16 Amps. Once I get the full 100 amp service I'd swap out the breaker for 50 or 60 amps (I'm not 100% sure yet if 6 gauge is good enough for 60 amps or not, though it's a very academic distinction because I don't think I'd be using anywhere near enough amperage for it to matter one way or the other). 6ga THHN is fine for 60 amps but you need to swap that 10ga ground wire you're planning for 8ga. I believe some EVs even now support up to 80amps(19.2kw) for level 2 charging so 60 amps is definitely not outside the realm of what you might want in the future.
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Nov 30, 2023 20:39
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Elem7 posted:6ga THHN is fine for 60 amps but you need to swap that 10ga ground wire you're planning for 8ga. I believe some EVs even now support up to 80amps(19.2kw) for level 2 charging so 60 amps is definitely not outside the realm of what you might want in the future. I always love to know more, so can you explain the ground wire sizing a bit? From what I can tell, 250.122 says 10 is sufficient for up to 60A (you can find a picture of the relevant table in this stack overflow post) but there's also so many conditions applied to it that something else might give a different answer. For example, 250.4(A)(5) and (B)(4) seem to basically just say "the ground wire should be sufficiently sized." Also, 6 gauge NMC cable appears to have 10 gauge ground wire rather than 8.
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Nov 30, 2023 21:18
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Qwijib0 posted:Meanwell has several models rated for outdoor use with a rated case temp of 85C. They do have a de-rating curve at higher temps, but you could oversize to deal with that. I did this amm.... 8 years ago? It's been working fine inside a project box in a Virginia attic since then. Got a Meanwell 100W for 12W of lights.
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Nov 30, 2023 21:54
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FISHMANPET posted:I always love to know more, so can you explain the ground wire sizing a bit? From what I can tell, 250.122 says 10 is sufficient for up to 60A (you can find a picture of the relevant table in this stack overflow post) but there's also so many conditions applied to it that something else might give a different answer. For example, 250.4(A)(5) and (B)(4) seem to basically just say "the ground wire should be sufficiently sized." Also, 6 gauge NMC cable appears to have 10 gauge ground wire rather than 8. The answer to that is, I'm wrong, because I was looking at 250.66 which does call for 8ga but 250.122 is actually the correct table in this situation. Welps, when I was recently going through this it was for a sub-panel feed where .66 would be correct.
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Nov 30, 2023 22:11
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FISHMANPET posted:I've got a subpanel that's about 2 feet away from where I would most likely install an EVSE (though on the other side of the wall that I'd be mounting to). Right now it's fed by a 30 amp breaker in the main panel, because of the undersized neutral feeding the panel, but I plan to eventually remediate that, most likely be getting a new 100 amp service run directly to the garage (because there's no good way to run a new feed from the main panel to the garage, and the sub panel was installed to accommodate that as it has a 100 amp main breaker). Did you check with your utility if they'll even give you a second drop? Around here, they really don't want to do this for any reason. (Especially if your garage is attached)
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Dec 1, 2023 02:08
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