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I could be convinced that Mauer is a Hall of Famer but voting for Beltre and Mauer and no one else seems absolutely insane
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Nov 27, 2023 21:27
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That ballot makes sense to me if you're not voting for the PED guys.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:29
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That ballot has to be from a Minneapolis writer
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Nov 27, 2023 21:30
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Isn't Mauer a definite HOFer if you compare him to other catchers? e: not a fan of the ballot, though.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:30
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Twin Cinema posted:Isn't Mauer a definite HOFer if you compare him to other catchers? People like to argue that he shouldn't be counted as a catcher because he had to move to 1B and play gold glove caliber defense there instead for a few years instead of retiring
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Nov 27, 2023 21:32
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How many eligible MVPs are not in the hall? In the NBA, (which obviously is a lot less strict) every eligible MVP is an inductee, though I imagine Derrick Rose will break that streak. e: besides Barry obviously e2: MARIS ISN'T IN THE HOF?? zoux fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 21:32
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Quite a few, and for good reason. No one wants Hall of Famer Justin Morneau
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Nov 27, 2023 21:35
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welcome posted:That ballot makes sense to me if you're not voting for the PED guys.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:35
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mcmagic posted:Is that posada? I didn't say I think he's a HOFer either. he's also hall of very good. Disagree with this
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Nov 27, 2023 21:35
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IcePhoenix posted:People like to argue that he shouldn't be counted as a catcher because he had to move to 1B and play gold glove caliber defense there instead for a few years instead of retiring edit: to be pedantically precise, Mauer had 3943 PA in his career as a catcher, which is 49.5% of his 7960 total PA compare this to say, Buster Posey: 4570 PA @ C out of 5607 total PA bawfuls fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 21:36
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Ya but if Posey had been playing 1B and not gotten his leg horrifically broken we wouldn't have the nonsense slide rule at home plate so strike against him.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:43
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IMO if you vote for less that 5 players each year you should lose your ballot
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Nov 27, 2023 21:47
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zoux posted:How many eligible MVPs are not in the hall? In the NBA, (which obviously is a lot less strict) every eligible MVP is an inductee, though I imagine Derrick Rose will break that streak. Maris probably shouldn't be in.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:48
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zoux posted:How many eligible MVPs are not in the hall? In the NBA, (which obviously is a lot less strict) every eligible MVP is an inductee, though I imagine Derrick Rose will break that streak. Juan González won two MVPs and never sniffed the HOF. Josh Hamilton also won’t make it in. I imagine there are plenty of guys who were really drat good for a short period of time who aren’t in. E: see above
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Nov 27, 2023 21:49
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Other HoF catchers near Mauer in WAR & JAWS: Bill Dickey: 6778 PA @ C out of 6906 Mickey Cochrane: 6038 PA @ C out of 6096 Mike Piazza: 6826 PA @ C out of 7745 Ted Simmons: 7279 PA @ C out of 9685 There really isn't any precedent for a player like Mauer. Simply comparing his stats to other catchers feels inadequate.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:49
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Roger Maris has 38 career WAR, not even close. He's also no where close to the traditional standards either, with only 1325 Hits and 275 Home Runs Baseball is littered with guys who had a hot season or a nice little peak but lacked longevity.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:51
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I know that bbwa decided it should be another way, but I like the NBAs model of "here's guys who were very good and important to the game" vs. MLB's shrine model. Any HoF that doesn't include a guy who held the sports most prestigious and sought after record for 40 years isn't a very good hall of fame, in this non-baseball writer's opinion.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:54
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zoux posted:How many eligible MVPs are not in the hall? In the NBA, (which obviously is a lot less strict) every eligible MVP is an inductee, though I imagine Derrick Rose will break that streak. My "Wow he's not in the HOF????" guy was always Don Newcombe. Not that he should be or is a clear HOFer but he's a guy whose name really echoed throughout the history of the game and who has at least 1 indelible moment in baseball and US history. Maybe it's just because his name stuck with me though. Penisaurus Sex fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 21:56
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Mauer should be in the HoF because he is a very good player who played for a single franchise his entire career and retired beloved. Keeping him out because he's borderline would just be a jerk thing to do to Twins fans.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:57
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Like that's the sole reason Yadier Molina is going to be a 1st ballot HoF inductee and if I have to watch Yadier get inducted then Mauer absolutely deserves it.
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Nov 27, 2023 21:59
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MrMidnight posted:Quite the low bar Yeah that was a bad way for me to say that I feel like people are very down on Gray this off-season for some reason. He's not gonna give you 200 IP, but he's a good pitcher still!
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Nov 27, 2023 22:03
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There are a lot of players that should get in if Molina is going to be first-ballot. Like Russell Martin.zoux posted:I know that bbwa decided it should be another way, but I like the NBAs model of "here's guys who were very good and important to the game" vs. MLB's shrine model. Any HoF that doesn't include a guy who held the sports most prestigious and sought after record for 40 years isn't a very good hall of fame, in this non-baseball writer's opinion. The career record is definitely a bigger deal bawfuls fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 22:07
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Juan Gonzalez, now there's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time. Donruss '88 red cards with the player's name scripted in white, there's a memory for y'all
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Nov 27, 2023 22:26
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Maris is nowhere near the Hall of Fame standard, not even by the standards of like Jim Rice and Andre Dawson. If you want to make Lloyd Waner the standard then OK, but now you've got about 100 well qualified outfielders.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:26
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Eric the Mauve posted:Maris is nowhere near the Hall of Fame standard, not even by the standards of like Jim Rice and Andre Dawson. The best part of that old Olbermann/Patrick book "The Big Show" is when Keith lists 100 guys (with at least a paragraph each!) who Should Be in the HOF. Some really great names and history in there.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:28
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Let's play another round of MYSTERY PLAYER comparing Maris to an outfielder from 30-40 years ago who is not in the Hall of Fame and I don't think survived the second ballot: bWAR Maris: 38.3 MYSTERY OUTFIELDER: 49.7 bWAA Maris: 19.8 MO: 20.5 Top 5 seasons Maris: 7.5, 6.9, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6 MO: 6.8, 5.1, 5.0, 4.9, 4.9 bWAR thinks both were poor defenders and actually gives Maris a substantial advantage in that area, so this is not a matter of the defensive numbers being funky. Maris just had a very very short peak. Brett Butler
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Nov 27, 2023 22:38
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If Molina gets in, might as well put Russell Martin and Brian McCann in too. Mauer deserves to get in because he was very good and was at one point a top 5 player in all of baseball.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:38
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bawfuls posted:how does one explain Mauer but not Helton or Utley? Minnesota writer? Win Share fan? There's a lot of Hall of Very Good on the ballot this year, people are going to draw their lines in weird places.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:48
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bawfuls posted:There are a lot of players that should get in if Molina is going to be first-ballot. Like Russell Martin. HoF discourse has really exemplified for me how many underrated catchers I've gotten to watch in my lifetime.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:49
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mdemone posted:Juan Gonzalez, now there's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time. You fool! It was 1990 Donruss! Kidding obviously. The 1988 were the boring blue border ones. 1990 was sure a design.
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Nov 27, 2023 22:53
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I don't care about the HOF, Mauer was great regardless. I do think some people have forgotten what he accomplished as a catcher. He's sorta getting knocked for not hanging it up after concussions forced him off the position. His WAR in seasons primarily played as a catcher are in line with those of the entire careers of Posado, Molina, and Posey. Mauer spent 9 seasons as a stud catcher with hardware. Metrics like JAWS rank him higher among all catchers, because he out hit many of them in their peaks. His defense was always considered good for the position. Mauer also took some level of discount to stay with the Twins, then made every effort to be a valuable contributor at 1B, when that transition became necessary. I don't get why that should just be thrown out the window, when his peak at catcher was demonstrably high level. He played out his contract, then retired. Mauer's entire career deserves credit, even if he was a marginal player at the end. Many catchers are marginal at the end of their careers too, but didn't manage to accumulate the level of WAR Mauer did. If you think the only catchers that should be in are those that exclusively play 15+ seasons, all at catcher (which, in fairness, is what comprises the top tier of HOF catching), fine. However, I think it's important to note baseball did change during the era of this class. The way modern catchers are used, it could be decades before someone puts up 65+ WAR playing ~80% of games at C for their career. Nobody is remotely close right now. After every decade having one or two catchers put in the hall (the 60s had a short window without a HOF catcher in baseball, before Bench arrived), the post-aughts and at this point the 2020s, will not have a catcher that meets the historic standards. That player may never come around again given the trajectory of baseball.
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Nov 27, 2023 23:56
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GPTribefan posted:You fool! It was 1990 Donruss!  I should have remembered because I have about fifty 1988 Tom Glavine Donruss rookie cards
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Nov 27, 2023 23:59
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I'm too lazy to look it up, how much WAR does Realmuto have?
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Nov 28, 2023 00:06
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Realmuto has 33 bWAR through his age 32 season. He's fighting age more than anything. He's been a pure catcher though, and could maybe make an interesting case by maintaining what he does for awhile longer. Seems unlikely though. Adley is the next possibility in the MLB, but started at age 24 at a position that sees careers end early.
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Nov 28, 2023 00:17
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Adley will probably get moved off catcher as soon as he suffers his first month-plus injury
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Nov 28, 2023 00:18
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mdemone posted:Juan Gonzalez, now there's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time. That was Donruss 1990. 1988 were mostly blue borders. I owned too many junk wax cards.
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Nov 28, 2023 00:56
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I think I have like ten Sammy Sosa RCs from that Donruss '90 set
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Nov 28, 2023 00:58
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Milovan Drecun posted:His WAR in seasons primarily played as a catcher are in line with those of the entire careers of Posado, Molina, and Posey. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 01:05
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To the BBWAA Salvador Perez and his 37 career WAR or whatever will be the borderline guy.
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Nov 28, 2023 01:07
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Perez will probably linger on the ballot for years while the superior Russell Martin will fall off in one.
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Nov 28, 2023 01:13
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