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Kids should only have phones to post to Awful App
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Nov 28, 2023 16:28
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Staluigi posted:Yeah and if a student whipped out a 90s rear end camcorder and got on with filming their class without permission that would be extra weird and not ok and petty much any teacher would have stopped it even decades ago, with abundantly reasonable cause. it didn't change the privacy issue because the cameras became smaller and rectangular shaped Kids used cameras during breaks all the time during school. Nobody is advocating for the use of phones or cameras during instruction. Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Kids should only have phones to post to Awful App 
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Nov 28, 2023 16:29
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I've already provided my own personal examples of why this doesn't work. Yes, I read all your posts on this topic. I would characterize them as coming less from a place of "this doesn't work" and more "I don't like this", but if I try to find things that fit in the first position I have (bolding mine): Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I already posted what a sensible policy was, I'm not doing it again. Also y'all are putting lots of words in my mouth that I didn't argue. What I will say is that banning phones will just lead to the ban being ignored by students and parents, so having rules and enforcing them while allowing students to have access to their devices outside of class time seems more than reasonable. So, this is basically just "you can't do this because people won't do it". To which I say first, it sounds like we haven't tried and don't know yet, and second, it would be pretty straightforward to make the penalty for bringing phones to school untenable for most offenders. Brought your phone? Cool, we're gonna take it from you and either your parent can come pick it up themselves or we will mail it back to you at the start of next week. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:... The skills that kids will need to use with phones in the real world can largely picked up outside of school, but to the extent school needs to teach them it could be done with on-site school devices instead of using the students' own phones. It would probably be easier to teach things using devices that meet a common standard anyway, instead of whatever the student happens to walk in the door holding. The second issue is actually a problem with the buses, not with phones, and if that's resolved the phone is unnecessary. If the students didn't have phones, it would be possible to change the policy so that a staff member would remain on site until they were picked up following extracurriculars (which was normal when I was a kid, and seems superior from a legal liability standpoint regardless) or at the very least a land line could be added in a spot that doesn't need a staff member to access (also formerly normal, and not expensive). Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 16:34
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Man your reading comprehension is garbage. Do you have evidence for this besides just saying it over and over?
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Nov 28, 2023 16:36
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Eletriarnation posted:Yes, I read all your posts on this topic. I would characterize them as coming less from a place of "this doesn't work" and more "I don't like this", but if I try to find things that fit in the first position I have (bolding mine): Lol at " if only they paid a teacher or bus driver to be present" My man they won't even pay bus drivers enough to keep the buses running. What the gently caress are you smoking thinking they they will spend the money to do any of that poo poo. Schools do not need to be policing communication devices outside of class.
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Nov 28, 2023 16:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Kids used cameras during breaks all the time during school. Nobody is advocating for the use of phones or cameras during instruction. to get back to my anecdote, when i was a parapro one of my actual jobs was the "blanket ban" like i actually enforced it so i get to have a bit of fun with you insisting it can't work It was necessitated by the sorts of facility privacy issues that are inherent to schools, they didn't go back and forth on it too much because the guidelines were really clear. district and state decided not to budge on the issue, so the Ban That Can't Work happened pretty quickly in response to some heinous filmed bullying and group stalking, and worked with multiple positive outcomes from policy. Students could bring phones and check them, or have them on their person with a monitored iep I won't claim that a blanket ban is the only solution you could iron out over time that works but i don't expect most of the US school system to do anything that works rather than just give up and let phones degrade school environments further, because they're in a state of extended collapse and usually can't do anything but give up anyway
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Nov 28, 2023 16:44
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There was a guy who's mom threatened a teacher because they called her about his conduct with regard to his cellphone and not to bother her at work ever again. This was in 2004. I admire what teachers have had to put up with since then.
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Nov 28, 2023 16:46
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Lol at " if only they paid a teacher or bus driver to be present" If they think it's important, they might dedicate some money for it. That is usually how organizations work. Again, this was normal 20 years ago. I don't think they need to be policed outside of class - if the kid can turn the phone off and put it away when school starts, ignore it all day long, and then take it out at the end of the day when they're waiting for pickup that's not a problem and I don't think it should be restricted. The clear problem is that kids aren't doing this. Maybe more of them would find themselves capable of it if that was the only way to have a phone after school, IDK.
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Nov 28, 2023 16:48
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Eletriarnation posted:If they think it's important, they might dedicate some money for it. That is usually how organizations work. Again, this was normal 20 years ago. Yeah cool welcome to my position this entire time. The reality is that schools are underfunded, understaffed, and already overburdened with responsibilities, but y'all just want to pile on more and just assume that every school will just magically be able to fit your perfectly spherical cow ideal scenario. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 16:50
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah cool welcome to my position this entire time. I think the issue is your original statement of Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It's not up to the school whether or not she has the phone on her person or in her bag during school hours. To me, and I’m guessing most people, this reads as schools shouldn’t be able to not allow phones in classrooms. Better clarification from the start would have been good
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Nov 28, 2023 16:57
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah cool welcome to my position this entire time. Yes, that's why the people who are arguing with you are mostly teachers. The people with the least experience in a classroom. Obviously. You've barely responded to any of the actual points except stamping your feet and insisting everyone else is an old (ignoring that many of the people are actually younger than you.) How exactly are we supposed to argue with someone who has no relevant experience, qualifications or evidence, who refuses to address points of argumentation and who can only respond with personal insults. You don't even have a proposed solution! You just try to weasel and say that you want a "sensible" position ; ignoring that you don't actually have one except for doing the same poo poo on a different day.
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Nov 28, 2023 17:02
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah cool welcome to my position this entire time. You have done an incredibly poor job of articulating your position, and the posts below *heavily* imply phone use during class: the comparison to mechanical pencils or graphing calculators, and the reference to voice recorders especially. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Nevermind the myriad of useful apps like voice recordings, calendars, reminders, notes, timers, email, etc. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Well poo poo let's just get rid of anything else those dang kids don't need just because you didn't have it when it literally wasn't invented yet. I don't think a policy of checking phones in at the beginning of the day and out at the end is terribly controversial, even if not universally lauded. Having phones available during breaks seems questionable to me too. Trying to pretend that you've been super clear about your position and everyone else is being unreasonable is pretty silly imo.
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Nov 28, 2023 17:02
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My daughter’s school implemented a phone checkin program this year. You drop your phone into a specially made cubby at the front of the room and pick it up after class. No complaints from her so far, but she did let us know about the new system as she dug through the junk drawer for the Nokia 3310 she played with as a baby (as a joke, she doesn’t drop off a burner phone). she let me know she wasn’t feeling well the other day and I drove over; I called the office from the parking lot, the office rang her class and sent her out the door to me.
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Nov 28, 2023 17:02
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah cool welcome to my position this entire time. No, I'm not assuming any such thing. What I am assuming is that it will be more straightforward and effective to have a comprehensive policy to prevent cell phone distractions at the school level than for each and every teacher to find their own way to try to teach around their presence without support. Not a perfect situation, but better than what we have now. I'm also the last person to propose that public servants be asked to take on more responsibilities without being given the resources they need. If you're just going to shoot down any idea that requires additional time investment on the basis of "well, paying for anything additional ever is a nonstarter" then it's going to be hard to have much of a discussion that isn't "how do we keep doing the status quo". Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 17:03
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fischtick posted:My daughter’s school implemented a phone checkin program this year. You drop your phone into a specially made cubby at the front of the room and pick it up after class. No complaints from her so far, but she did let us know about the new system as she dug through the junk drawer for the Nokia 3310 she played with as a baby (as a joke, she doesn’t drop off a burner phone). That was the system back when I was in school, but I do remember the feeling of embarrassment when they called your name over the PA when its lunch or something. It's kinda odd that this is popping back up, you mean kids weren't playing snake on their nokias back in the day? I remember teachers would grab gameboys too, though the ubiquity is the novel factor now.
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Nov 28, 2023 17:07
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Eletriarnation posted:So, this is basically just "you can't do this because people won't do it". To which I say first, it sounds like we haven't tried and don't know yet, and second, it would be pretty straightforward to make the penalty for bringing phones to school untenable for most offenders. Brought your phone? Cool, we're gonna take it from you and either your parent can come pick it up themselves or we will mail it back to you at the start of next week. Back in the hoary days of ~2000 I remember a teacher losing his poo poo over some Nokia’s ringing in class and confiscating all the phones in class, even searched backpacks. Bold moves for a vocabulary development teacher. Some bitchy parents ran that up the flagpole so fast and that teacher never complained about phones again. Like in the abstract I get what you’re saying, just take the phones and ban them from class, even if it’s hard. But in practicality, the bandwidth for that extra measure is for the most part not there. I see Staluigi’s story about the extreme implementation working and that is interesting to me but it really feels like a school district has to hit rock bottom on the issue before both the parents and the administrators are fed up enough to act. I know locally our superintendent has been triaging their energy to convince families that the teachers are already earning too much, so asking them to police phones and stop complaining about pay/work conditions is going to be a non starter. But the local issues may be different somewhere that the teachers are paid well, supported in the classroom and where every kid is held back by their phones vs *waves hand generally* everything else from food and housing insecurity to failed reading curriculums.
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Nov 28, 2023 17:08
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Yeah to be clear, I am not proposing that teachers be asked to search backpacks or pockets. I think about it like when, as a kid, I forgot that I had a small knife in my pocket before going to school. I knew this was strictly forbidden, and if a teacher even saw the knife I'd be in a lot of trouble. I kept it in my pocket all day long, told no one, and acted like it wasn't there so it wasn't an issue. If kids have the self-control to do this with cell phones and then just take them out at the end of the day when they're necessary to call transportation or whatever, I don't see how that would be a problem.
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Nov 28, 2023 17:13
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah cool welcome to my position this entire time. You're coming across as all over the place and I don't even know what you're arguing half the time. If everyone else is consistently misunderstanding your position, especially in light of the fact that you also clearly don't understand theirs (and don't seem able to differentiate between different people with different opinions) maybe the problem is actually your communication? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 17:17
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Blue Footed Booby posted:This made me curious, so I googled. According to the bureau of labor statistics: In states with no higher minimum I still never got min wage. Even lovely restaurants and Walmart, even my very first high school busser job, and such offer more. Chitpotle started college age kids at 15 per, same as a my starting wage for United airlines which involved fbi and corporate clearance and much higher stakes. So did Twister Root which is a mall Five--Guys esque. Lowest offer I got anywhere for a second job was 12. And most places in the second "tier" of poo poo, like Chipotle, Target, etc have basic insurance. That was in the south, so it's not quite as miserable as it sounds compared to CoL. I also expect small business tyrants pay worse than chains. It's not great but it's better than people have been gone for a while expect, I think. I suspect most people on federal minimum are either quite rural, high school or desperate and being exploited- like say, ex cons who everyone turns down. Also a bad tip day still only gets topped to federal if you're one of the people on the server exception. No idea what they're pulling but I prefer living wage and no expectation of tip, tbh
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Nov 28, 2023 17:29
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A lot of the people posting for full phone bans or at least banning them from classes seem to either not realize or are ignoring that phones are being coopted by teachers as instructional tools. As a former teacher, I can tell you there's no way, no how there's gonna be a full ban, and with trying to manage every other dimension of classroom behavior, the phone issue must be ceded. As the cliche goes, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"--in my last couple years of teaching I had students use apps like Poll Everywhere to do quick formative assessments to see if the content was landing or not. We didn't have computers in every classroom, computer labs and laptop carts were frequently occupied so if students needed to do research, they have their phones on them.
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Nov 28, 2023 18:06
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Judgy Fucker posted:A lot of the people posting for full phone bans or at least banning them from classes seem to either not realize or are ignoring that phones are being coopted by teachers as instructional tools. As a former teacher, I can tell you there's no way, no how there's gonna be a full ban, and with trying to manage every other dimension of classroom behavior, the phone issue must be ceded. As the cliche goes, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"--in my last couple years of teaching I had students use apps like Poll Everywhere to do quick formative assessments to see if the content was landing or not. We didn't have computers in every classroom, computer labs and laptop carts were frequently occupied so if students needed to do research, they have their phones on them. I mean, sure, this is all anecdotal, so it's likely that for every school that has moved to 1-to-1 chromebooks, there is another using app-based teaching tools. I don't see that as a reason to throw up our collective hands and give up on something that apparently leads to poorer outcomes for students. The opinion piece posted earlier mentioned keeping them out of schools entirely, which is probably pretty difficult, but it's not some massive unsolved problem just to have them stored away during instruction. A couple friends of mine work in a middle school and high school that have been doing that for years. Kids drop their phones in numbered pouches that hang on the wall, and after a bit of prodding at the beginning of the year, all it takes for each class period is a glance over at the pouches to see if anyone is trying to break the rules. Obviously they have the occasional issues with kids who claim they forgot theirs that day, or bring old phones to turn in, and there's a bit of classroom management necessary to prevent a mad dash for the pouches every time there's a momentary break in instruction, but overall they say it works really well compared to other districts they've taught in.
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Nov 28, 2023 18:37
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Baronash posted:The opinion piece posted earlier mentioned keeping them out of schools entirely, which is probably pretty difficult, but it's not some massive unsolved problem just to have them stored away during instruction. A couple friends of mine work in a middle school and high school that have been doing that for years. Kids drop their phones in numbered pouches that hang on the wall, and after a bit of prodding at the beginning of the year, all it takes for each class period is a glance over at the pouches to see if anyone is trying to break the rules. Obviously they have the occasional issues with kids who claim they forgot theirs that day, or bring old phones to turn in, and there's a bit of classroom management necessary to prevent a mad dash for the pouches every time there's a momentary break in instruction, but overall they say it works really well compared to other districts they've taught in. Do your friends talk about theft being an issue? That is what immediately jumps out to me as a problem with the pouches or drop boxes. Phone theft was a multiple-times-a-day issue at the school I taught.
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Nov 28, 2023 18:50
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Discendo Vox posted:No. Futility arguments are not valid. You should not ever use them; they are a thought-terminating brainworm, a reactionary talking point dressed up as insight. There are certainly cases where laws do not effectively compel obedience, due to being some mixture of "wildly unpopular" and "difficult to consistently enforce". Prohibition was already cited as one example, and I'd say that speeding laws are another. I'm not sure how we got there from school cellphone policies, though. Those are fairly easy to enforce, assuming the school actually has the will to enforce them in the face of parental resistance. It's not like it's rare for schools to have to confiscate contraband from kids.
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Nov 28, 2023 18:53
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Main Paineframe posted:I'm not sure how we got there from school cellphone policies, though. Those are fairly easy to enforce, assuming the school actually has the will to enforce them in the face of parental resistance. It's not like it's rare for schools to have to confiscate contraband from kids. There's the rub. School boards are elected, and who elects them? Among others, the parents of the children in the school district. This is part of why blanket bans are a non-starter, it becomes an electoral issue should the matter be pushed far enough. You're right about contraband, but there's a difference between something like a phone (potentially useful for academic and non-academic situations at school) versus, say, a kid's vape pen.
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Nov 28, 2023 18:59
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Misunderstood posted:Yeah it's not shootings - it's the "never talk to strangers" thing. In the 80s and 90s the way we introduced kids to the world was to say "absolutely every person you see is trying to get you, to [worst thing child is able to imagine at that age]," an attitude it turns out some people are unable to shed as they move into adulthood. They're gonna stop me playing Streets of Rage 2? 
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Nov 28, 2023 18:59
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Judgy Fucker posted:Do your friends talk about theft being an issue? That is what immediately jumps out to me as a problem with the pouches or drop boxes. Phone theft was a multiple-times-a-day issue at the school I taught. They keep an eye on the pouches as the kids file out of the room, and apparently that's enough to prevent theft from being an issue in their school. I could definitely see it being a bigger issue depending on the school though, so fair point.
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Nov 28, 2023 19:10
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Ms Adequate posted:They're gonna stop me playing Streets of Rage 2? They're going to force you to play to completion 3 non-Disney movie licensed NES games.
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Nov 28, 2023 19:13
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Agents are GO! posted:They're going to force you to play to completion 3 non-Disney movie licensed NES games. Cruel and unusual punishment isn't constitutional.
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Nov 28, 2023 19:25
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You can really tell which posters have kids currently going through the public school system in the US and which ones don't.
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Nov 28, 2023 19:42
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D-Pad posted:You can really tell which posters have kids currently going through the public school system in the US and which ones don't. Just like it's very obvious who here has ever tried to teach a class.
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Nov 28, 2023 19:51
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as someone who doest have kid but wants to bitch about school issues., my biggest gripe about high school was that we read classics and other good books but were terribly taught them. the system teaches books that teens won't appreciate because they dont have the life expirence or they are taught shaekspear by reading it out of the book with little context. worse in my opinion, they focus fully on "look for symbolism and write about the symboles. just look for key words and dont actually read the book as book, and if you come to some kinda weird or interesting opinion about the book, your wrong, just talk about the symbols and whatever harold bloom wants. I was in highschool in like 08 so hopefully its better now, because it took me until recently to appreaciate reading classic or lit again. same with art honestly, but i feel in love with that in college
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Nov 28, 2023 19:53
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Xiahou Dun posted:Just like it's very obvious who here has ever tried to teach a class. Pray tell?
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Nov 28, 2023 19:53
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D-Pad posted:You can really tell which posters have kids currently going through the public school system in the US and which ones don't. Yeah, the “better things aren’t possible, make no rules to improve education” are the ones with kids in school.
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Nov 28, 2023 19:55
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D-Pad posted:You can really tell which posters have kids currently going through the public school system in the US and which ones don't. Xiahou Dun posted:Just like it's very obvious who here has ever tried to teach a class. This is dumb and if you have points please make them.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:01
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Baronash posted:This is dumb and if you have points please make them. I was mocking that argument for being dumb.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:03
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Xiahou Dun posted:Just like it's very obvious who here has ever tried to teach a class. You mean how the two teachers who posted here said full bans aren't realistic? Judgy Fucker posted:A lot of the people posting for full phone bans or at least banning them from classes seem to either not realize or are ignoring that phones are being coopted by teachers as instructional tools. As a former teacher, I can tell you there's no way, no how there's gonna be a full ban, and with trying to manage every other dimension of classroom behavior, the phone issue must be ceded. As the cliche goes, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"--in my last couple years of teaching I had students use apps like Poll Everywhere to do quick formative assessments to see if the content was landing or not. We didn't have computers in every classroom, computer labs and laptop carts were frequently occupied so if students needed to do research, they have their phones on them. litany of gulps posted:Speaking as an American public school teacher, the phones are absurd, but that’s a long lost battle. Anyone with a computer is just as distracted. Our school computers come with Microsoft Teams installed and the kids can just text each other on that as easily as on any social media app. The ESL kids that used to write garbled pseudo English responses now just write AI generated responses. The end result is unfortunately worse, they learn literally nothing from copying AI generated responses versus having to have some kind of productive struggle writing their own thoughts. Private schools have much smaller class sizes and actual accountability in ways that the public schools can’t match, so you don’t have the same issues there. The rich kids learn while the poor kids get to play on their screens.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:07
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D-Pad posted:You mean how the two teachers who posted here said full bans aren't realistic? Do you have an actual argument?
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Nov 28, 2023 20:11
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How the heck did we even get to phone chat in the first place
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Nov 28, 2023 20:14
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:How the heck did we even get to phone chat in the first place A study was released arguing that unchecked phone usage by kids and teens severely hampers academic progress
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Nov 28, 2023 20:15
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:How the heck did we even get to phone chat in the first place Alexander Graham Bell is responsible, I think. It's just part of the modern existence. Everything wrong circles back to being able to talk to each other immediately and share our opinions on the internet without getting bullied for our love of anthro furry hentai.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:16
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