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The Lemondrop Dandy posted:Something like 30%-40% of the Jewish population is from Europe (Ashkenazi or Soviet origin). Netanyahu was born in Philadelphia, for example. He was? You might want to double check that.
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Nov 27, 2023 15:29
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ummel posted:Netanyahu was born in Tel Aviv and spent his teenage years in Philadelphia before returning to Israel. I stand corrected
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Nov 27, 2023 16:13
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The Lemondrop Dandy posted:I stand corrected It's a pretty common misconception I've seen corrected in this thread a few times. I didn't even know he was the Fresh Prince of Bel Aviv until this recent war.
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Nov 27, 2023 17:50
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ummel posted:It's a pretty common misconception I've seen corrected in this thread a few times. I didn't even know he was the Fresh Prince of Bel Aviv until this recent war. And as a Jewish Philadelphian, I die a little more each time the misconception is repeated, for we do not claim him (at least I don't)
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Nov 27, 2023 19:08
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The rest of the post sounds completely correct to me but this is a real underestimation of the similarity between different minhagim (traditions - Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Yemeni etc). These communities share the exact same sacred books (Bible and Talmud), their prayers are maybe 2/3 exactly the same (hard to estimate but virtually identical Amidah and exactly identical Shema which are by far the most important prayers), and the same religious calendar with the same holidays. They've always had mutual influence over each other, and the result is that differences are on the level of "can we eat dairy 72 minutes after eating meat or do we have to wait 6 hours" or "do men wear prayer shawls after age 13 or after getting married". Of course across time and space you have different attitudes, new traditions, different levels of observance among non-rabbis, but it's much more than a "thin thread of liturgy." Am happy to extend/withdraw the word thin here. The point I'd emphasise is that there was not much in the way of shared language and cultural norms - while many Jews may have known snippets of biblical Hebrew, it was mostly the language of religion which most would not have been exposed to in depth unless making specific study - the languages most common would have been local Jewish languages (Yiddish, Judeo-Arabic etc) and "host nation" (I hate this term) languages, ie Germany, Polish, various Arabic dialects etc. Ancient Hebrew in that regard worked much more like Latin. And just like Latin, the region you were speaking in heavily influenced even your pronunciation. To that extent it probably resembles (for example) a Pakistani rural villager with little-no Quranic education speaking Quranic Arabic and having their linguistic origin imprint on eg Alhamdu-lillah. So with regards to Hebrew in prayer, Yemenis speaking religious Hebrew would have a trilled 'r' sound (like its Arabic sister). Not so in France. If they recited the Lord's prayer together, they might have difficulty even understanding each other! This is perfectly natural. Culturally, some aspects of religious dress and code would have been shared. Others discarded. As with all religious groupings, some of the populations would have been religious, others would have carried on with the cultural motions expected of them, others would have lived in what they saw as sin, others still would have rejected aspects etc. But a Yemeni Jew, even if he or she could state a prayer or two together and celebrate Purim, would have had far more in common with non-Jewish Yemenis (regionally) in terms of food, music, livelihood etc than with a Jewish person in France or Germany (again, perfectly natural). quote:I also think your post could give more credit to the religion itself as an influence on Jewish nationalism - Jewish religious texts, for as long as we've had them, have been obsessed with "am Israel" (the people of Israel) and "eretz Israel" (the land of Israel) and the importance of the people dwelling in the land or returning to it. The reason that once-secular Zionism keeps becoming more and more entangled with the religion is that there really is a lot there for nationalists who want to draw on it. One obvious edampl or this influence is that for Israeli law a Jew is defined religiously - someone who was born to a Jewish mother or underwent a formal conversion. I think to the extent that Judaism has been exploited, often by atheist nationalists but also by various anti-semites, it's had an influence as a driving tool but I don't think Judaism drove the various Zionist projects (though I concede that Judaism will have had more cultural impression on different Jewish groups than my previous post gave credit for). The 19th century settlers were overwhelmingly areligious or irreligious. The 20th century shift in literature and politics looked to religion for various claims to the land: - we've never stopped yearning for it = prayer validates our claim - these names (of places) have existed since time immemorial = every Arab village we destroy has a biblical antecedent - our language is rooted in the land and ageless = for two thousand years our connection to the soil has been preserved in how we speak - God promised it to us = even if I don't believe in God, my claim is manifest destiny - it was predicated we would return = we are inevitable - when we first arrived the land responded to our touch = and continues to do so after 2,000 years - we were ordered to defeat Amalek = and we must do so today (etc etc) So I definitely believe that the religion has been influential historically when it comes to Zionism but only so far as has been naturally necessary to fulfil nationalist myths. In more recent history (1970s onwards), that flips somewhat into more active religious nationalism, which reflects Zionism changing local Israeli religion(s) and kind of entering a cycle of extremism. e: should say I'm belabouring because I think it's more interesting when looking at the historic roots of conflict to look more at competing national mythologies than who started what fight etc. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 23:36
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Hong XiuQuan posted:The 19th century settlers were overwhelmingly areligious or irreligious. The 20th century shift in literature and politics looked to religion for various claims to the land ... So I definitely believe that the religion has been influential historically when it comes to Zionism but only so far as has been naturally necessary to fulfil nationalist myths. In more recent history (1970s onwards), that flips somewhat into more active religious nationalism, which reflects Zionism changing local Israeli religion(s) and kind of entering a cycle of extremism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WhrVV52cYc&t=391s
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Nov 28, 2023 02:58
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Today's exchange went off fine and in further good news, both sides have agreed to extend the pause by two days under the same terms. We must hope for this to start building into a proper ceasefire, however distant that goal seems. Every hour that the guns are silent is an hour for diplomats and mediators to work without some new atrocity derailing everything, at the very least. Caught a commentator earlier pointing out that in a way this may be creating a greater cost in perception for Israel going back to full-scale military action, regardless of what Netanyahu says or intends. His reasoning was that if the world has seen almost a week of the two sides making these exchanges and, of necessity, demonstrating that they can solve something through diplomacy, for either one to kick things off again afterwards is likely to be seen as deeply shocking by the world at large. Restarting the bombing runs when so many people already think Israel had gone way overboard, and when diplomacy has released infinity more hostages than the campaign, is going to be immensely jarring outside Israel and likely to inspire vastly more anger. Netanyahu doesn't care, but given that every politician on Earth outside of the ME is eating a bowl of poo poo domestically no matter what position they take, one presumes the pressure to find a way to make him care is ever mounting so this loving thing can stop wrecking people's polling numbers. I don't know if any amount of pressure can achieve it though, given that the minute the war actually ends he is going to get crucified, possibly not just metaphorically.
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Nov 28, 2023 09:27
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https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1729422338049872067quote:The occupation forces withdraw from Tubas in the West Bank after besieging a house and arresting a number of Palestinians. The IDF is raiding, detaining and killing Palestinians in the west bank as a response to celebrations for the truce and the release of detained palestinians. 240 palestinians have been killed and more than 3000 injured in the west bank by the IDF since Oct 7th. A less firm estimate of Palestinians from the west bank detained since the date is around 3000. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 09:55
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Rigged Death Trap posted:https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1729422338049872067 I don't know if it's really "in response to" that given that it probably happens every few days, regardless of the situation. More like "here is today's excuse".
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Nov 28, 2023 10:25
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https://twitter.com/StevenWagner85/status/1729426280255262770?t=0uY2iLr05RAhJVcjW6SDzg&s=19 https://twitter.com/StevenWagner85/status/1729426285082927510?t=tbtXKN-342-IhZ67fRfPFw&s=19 The extent of the Israeli intelligence failure on the 7/10 attacks is really impressive. The thread has some further details/translations: https://twitter.com/StevenWagner85/status/1729426305760845975?t=NzPF-mhudEU0HUDHTcK4KQ&s=19
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Nov 28, 2023 11:16
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Miftan posted:I don't know if it's really "in response to" that given that it probably happens every few days, regardless of the situation. More like "here is today's excuse". I mean, yes, but reports from the west bank is that theyre specifically targeting such gatherings and are doing it more intensely in addition to the usual. Yesterday Israeli police kicked the media out of several returning prisoners homes and blocked access to their neighbourhoods. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 12:06
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With all the furore going on in Gaza, it was understandable that the madness in the West Bank was going to get less coverage. But with the ceasefire, the silence is still holding, despite Israel going almost as crazy (and arguably more malicious) there. Even with the hostage swaps, the IDF is up like +200 prisoners there, with charges running the gamut from flimsy ("You played music when your cousin was freed") to nonexistent. Settlers are more incensed than ever as well. And it's rarely brought up in interviews and statements. Part of it is that they are obviously desperate to give palestinians (and Hamas in particular) any sort of visible "win". The West Bank may not be under Hamas control, but families being reunited there because of Hamas-prompted negotiations still sends a message. And the whole West Bank in general is a big knife in the "our beef is with Hamas terrorists" narrative.
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Nov 28, 2023 12:46
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What determines whether or not a Palestinian goes to court versus administrative detention? I see a lot of people go ‘oh but she was on video stabbing someone’ and you’d think if they had that video it would be easy to convict and they wouldn’t be in detention for multiple years.
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Nov 28, 2023 13:23
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Demiurge4 posted:What determines whether or not a Palestinian goes to court versus administrative detention? I see a lot of people go ‘oh but she was on video stabbing someone’ and you’d think if they had that video it would be easy to convict and they wouldn’t be in detention for multiple years. If they have israeli citizenship or not, afaik.
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Nov 28, 2023 13:26
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Demiurge4 posted:What determines whether or not a Palestinian goes to court versus administrative detention? I see a lot of people go ‘oh but she was on video stabbing someone’ and you’d think if they had that video it would be easy to convict and they wouldn’t be in detention for multiple years. any Palestinian in the West Bank will either be given a trial under Military Courts with roughly 98% conviction rates or be detained without any trial at all. As far as I can tell there is no system to decide which since they arent subject to a real justice system but the whims of an occupation.
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Nov 28, 2023 14:36
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 of course this is not surprising, what is surprising is that CNN has the balls to point this out they are also calling Palestinian children 'children' which is a step forward
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Nov 28, 2023 14:37
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Autisanal Cheese posted:
I'm surprised there is no fully translated list yet. Or at least I couldn't find it. https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0 They do have some people on the list who were involved in violent crimes/terrorism (or at least were convicted of that), but the vast majority have extremely vague charges like 'damage to property' or 'membership in an unknown [terrorist] organisation'. Many were detained on those charges without trial for over a year.
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Nov 28, 2023 15:11
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https://twitter.com/BenzionSanders/status/1729466193851859249
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Nov 29, 2023 09:41
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https://x.com/szmarsupial/status/1729793805354779043?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Ayup, fair point. Also, Israeli officials are just casually going 'we shot people for celebrating the release of child captives'. https://x.com/skynews/status/1729200784955379784?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Nov 29, 2023 11:12
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https://x.com/middleeasteye/status/1729833740514304168?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Well, poo poo. It's genuinely remarkable that there hasn't been a major West Bank uprising yet, given the steady stream of atrocities there. Feels like it can only be a matter of time, no matter how heavily repressed the residents are.
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Nov 29, 2023 13:20
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This is secondhand info from friends that actually visited, but the West Bank apparently gets caught in the "it could be worse" level of hell. Quality of life is leagues better than in Gaza, which is a low bar to clear, but still. If you are lucky, you can go weeks without being directly harassed/insulted/held. And the PA is heavily geared toward helping you deal with the occupation. Settlers stole your home? They'll help you find a new, shabbier place in the shrinking bantustan. IDF tore down your olive trees? They have an aid stipend so you dont't starve. Nephew arrested for having a shouting match with some IT manager from Jersey that came over to realize his ethbic destiny? They'll try to talk to the local officer and see what can be done. So people alternatebetween being happy for the relative luck they have, since they all have friends and relatives going through worse, and seething because they know it can get bad anytime.
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Nov 29, 2023 13:47
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Didn't see it in the thread, but HRW published their preliminary finding on the October 17 at al-Ahli hospital explosion (their wording) where they lean towards a Gazan rocket misfire. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion They previously reported on plenty of human rights violations by Israel, and even here mention that Israel hit the same hospital 3 days prior to the big explosion, so it at least looks to me like good-faith research. They don't really address research by other organisations that came to a different conclusion and they also don't claim that their findings are final, so I'm still not entirely convinced. They do raise some points I haven't seen before, however. On a different note, Biden's personal account (i.e. not @potus) has tweeted this somewhat cryptic but maybe a message in support of a permanent ceasefire? Could be simply pre-election signalling for a specific audience, of course, but hopefully indicates some future shift in policy. https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1729621217089323431
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Nov 29, 2023 14:03
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Paladinus posted:On a different note, Biden's personal account (i.e. not @potus) has tweeted this somewhat cryptic but maybe a message in support of a permanent ceasefire? Could be simply pre-election signalling for a specific audience, of course, but hopefully indicates some future shift in policy. gently caress that rapist piece of poo poo. Still focused on Hamas, Hamas, Hamas. Keep providing air cover for ethnic cleansing. What absolute trash.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:08
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Paladinus posted:Didn't see it in the thread, but HRW published their preliminary finding on the October 17 at al-Ahli hospital explosion (their wording) where they lean towards a Gazan rocket misfire. Not only is it completely irrelevant at this point given Israel's continued demonstrated contempt for the status of hospitals. It was obviously Israel and the only reason this is even still being discussed is that Al Ahli was the only time since October 7th that Israel ever felt like its propoganda denying it's obvious guilt managed to work. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 14:27
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Not only is it completely irrelevant at this point given Israel's continued demonstrated contempt for the status of hospitals. It was obviously Israel and the only reason this is even still being discussed is that Al Ahli was the only time since October 7th that Israel ever felt like its propoganda denying it's obvious guilt managed to work. Do you have any notes on the evidence presented in the report? Again, based on HRW's previous output, I don't think they would go bat for Israel like that if it really was that obvious it was them. I don't think it's irrelevant just because other equally and more horrific things also happened. Bel Shazar posted:gently caress that rapist piece of poo poo. Still focused on Hamas, Hamas, Hamas. Keep providing air cover for ethnic cleansing. What absolute trash. Unfortunately, you can't expect a direct condemnation of Israel's actions from the US government, and I definitely wouldn't want people to mistake my hope for policy shift for praise of Biden's position. It would still be undeniably better for people in Gaza, no matter what rhetoric is used, if America started pushing for a permanent ceasefire.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:46
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HRW is absolutely not a fan of Israel. The reason they're saying it's likely Hamas was responsible for the strike on Al-Ahli is because there is strong evidence against them in that case. It's obviously very hard to prove anything definitively when cops deliberately conceal the evidence they found at the crime scene (note that HRW interviewed a witness who said that Hamas police took away shrapnel from the scene), but the fact that Hamas chose to and continues to choose to conceal that evidence is a very strong indicator of their guilt. This doesn't absolve Israel of their wider abuses in any way, but it's still relevant as Hamas should, if it is responsible, be held accountable for what is one of the deadliest single strikes in the history of the Gaza conflict. Dodging responsibility for it may allow them to continue their rocket campaign which has now done far more direct harm to their own citizens than it has to the country they are ostensibly targeting.
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Nov 29, 2023 15:04
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They admit that a rocket, even a misfired rocket with much of it's fuel remaining, (which was not what was claimed by Israel originally, they claimed an interception) wouldn't cause the damage seen and that previous misfired rockets have killed a maximum of 7 people. To see the damage this caused would require an unspecified amount of additional fuel in the area to have been ignited, which they can't prove occurred. They also fully accept that Israel had shelled the hospital previously and that Israeli jets were in the area and bombing the surrounding residential areas at the time the hospital was bombed. HRW is and always has been a mouthpiece for the US state department. It's why they couch Israel's confirmed targeting of hospitals as an, 'apparent crime' and Hamas' use of dumbfire rockets as an unqualified 'war crime.' The report can be nuanced and a bit even-handed because only nerds read the report, what matters is that a journalist can have the headline 'HRW proves Al Ahli blast likely Palestinian rocket.'
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Nov 29, 2023 15:09
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:They admit that a rocket, even a misfired rocket with much of it's fuel remaining, (which was not what was claimed by Israel originally, they claimed an interception) wouldn't cause the damage seen and that previous misfired rockets have killed a maximum of 7 people. To see the damage this caused would require an unspecified amount of additional fuel in the area to have been ignited, which they can't prove occurred. They also fully accept that Israel had shelled the hospital previously and that Israeli jets were in the area and bombing the surrounding residential areas at the time the hospital was bombed. They posit that there was 'fuel or some other flammable material present on the site', and that's also what I thought was a bit vague. At the very least knowing the amount of fuel, whether it could have been from the cars there or from an improvised generator, or it only could have been from something the size of a tanker (tank truck). At the same time, they are really certain that it was fuel and not anything that Israel used in the area. To me, one of the main sources of knowledge on violations of human rights by Israel was this comprehensive and very damning (even in its headline) HRW report from 2021 https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture, but my impression is that HRW's reporting is far from being 'a mouthpiece for the US state department'.
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Nov 29, 2023 15:22
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In the end it’s just one little data point Zionists will cling to while ignoring the atrocities committed by Israel on an hourly basis, includes by bombing other hospitals.
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Nov 29, 2023 15:30
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Paladinus posted:They posit that there was 'fuel or some other flammable material present on the site', and that's also what I thought was a bit vague. At the very least knowing the amount of fuel, whether it could have been from the cars there or from an improvised generator, or it only could have been from something the size of a tanker (tank truck). At the same time, they are really certain that it was fuel and not anything that Israel used in the area. No you see they're towing the line. I don't see how you wouldn't be convinced that they're a state department mouthpiece. They definitely never the United States foreign policy or that of it's allies. This was after like 5 minutes of phone scrolling. You could say they have a bias towards the West (I would disagree but it's at least maybe defensible), but to call them a State department mouthpiece is loving stupid. Nucleic Acids posted:In the end it’s just one little data point Zionists will cling to while ignoring the atrocities committed by Israel on an hourly basis, includes by bombing other hospitals. This is definitely the larger immediate issue at play here. It's not like Hamas is going to read the HRW report and stop firing rockets where they might overfly Palestinian civilians (basically most places they can launch from especially now) and these misfires, if that is what happened, almost never cause this kind of damage and casualty figures. On the other hand, Israel was killing more civilians than this on a near daily basis and has vowed to return to that level of intensity of collective punishment against the civilians of Gaza. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 15:34
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There are a few posters in this thread who are literally reporting almost every post that contains any nuance and says or even just hints at anything negative at all about Hamas. Even if the post is 95% against Israel and just 5% critical of Hamas, it is usually reported for not being pure. Those reports (which basically amount to "I disagree with this person's opinion, so please probe them") are bullshit. Please stop.
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Nov 29, 2023 15:38
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It's one data point in the Zionists' favor, which means they're going to parrot it relentlessly in spite of the several other investigations pointing in Israel's direction. My personal take is that the "definitive" conclusion will be whatever Forensic Architecture ultimately concludes. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 15:39
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It's not even Hamas who is accused of launching the rocket so i don't understand why it would hurt them specifically, as opposed to the palestinian cause as a whole.
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Nov 29, 2023 15:48
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So has anyone watched the documentary "5 broken cameras"? Could not find any streaming platform in my country but I'm sure you can find it in the USA. It was anything but a neutral point of view, but does show how the IDF tends to like shooting at protesters and arresting people. I highly recommend it.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:20
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Party In My Diapee posted:It's not even Hamas who is accused of launching the rocket so i don't understand why it would hurt them specifically, as opposed to the palestinian cause as a whole. Many people, including many posters in this thread, cannot remember that PIJ exists because they have the memories of a goldfish.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:23
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I think the only piece of evidence pointing to PIJ over Hamas is the allegedly intercepted audio log presented by Israel, which is 1) heavily challenged in terms of authenticity and 2) pure hearsay even if we accept it as genuine - the speakers were just discussing a rumour rather than claiming any direct knowledge. Both groups were firing missiles over the hospital shortly before the explosion happened. I am more inclined to think it's Hamas due to the fact that they're the ones concealing evidence, but it is also possible they're covering for another Palestinian group.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:27
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the only piece of evidence pointing to PIJ over Hamas is the allegedly intercepted audio log presented by Israel, which is 1) heavily challenged in terms of authenticity and 2) pure hearsay even if we accept it as genuine - the speakers were just discussing a rumour rather than claiming any direct knowledge. Both groups were firing missiles over the hospital shortly before the explosion happened. I am more inclined to think it's Hamas due to the fact that they're the ones concealing evidence, but it is also possible they're covering for another Palestinian group. Weirdly, the existing evidence does seem to be enough to have convinced literally every source that doesn't blame Israel, including the Israeli military. No one (except internet forums posters) has ever claimed that it was a Hamas rocket. I guess in a way this is evidence of the pervasive effecticeness of Israeli military propaganda: even when they explicitly blame another group, many instinctively default to blaming Hamas.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the only piece of evidence pointing to PIJ over Hamas is the allegedly intercepted audio log presented by Israel, which is 1) heavily challenged in terms of authenticity and 2) pure hearsay even if we accept it as genuine - the speakers were just discussing a rumour rather than claiming any direct knowledge. Both groups were firing missiles over the hospital shortly before the explosion happened. I am more inclined to think it's Hamas due to the fact that they're the ones concealing evidence, but it is also possible they're covering for another Palestinian group. Were there really reports that Hamas were firing rockets at the same time? I can only remember mentions of PIJ rockets.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:38
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https://twitter.com/JoshKraushaar/status/1729712282664394878
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Nov 29, 2023 16:45
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Paladinus posted:Were there really reports that Hamas were firing rockets at the same time? I can only remember mentions of PIJ rockets. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rocket-to-blame quote:The first local reports of the blast started to come in between 7pm and 7.20pm. e: honestly, I don't see how Hamas would've even known themselves until they inspected the fragments they recovered from the scene. It's not like these rockets are gonna give you GPS feedback or anything. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 16:46
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